Bloodstock & Breeding

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30 Mar 17 01:07
Date Joined: 09 Sep 02
| Topic/replies: 29 | Blogger: intergoal's blog
An interesting video just released about the racing and breeding industry in Japan:

They have certainly 'played up' Japanese successes in the video, but where does Japan stand now in terms of overall quality in comparison to USA and Ireland/GB, where do other nations rank?
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Report Madhu April 7, 2017 12:31 PM BST
Thanks Intergoal. Enjoyed that.
Report intergoal April 8, 2017 10:25 AM BST
Thanks, I was hoping to start a discussion on where the power lies in terms of the world's bloodstock. Would be good to hear people's opinions on what the current pecking order is and where is it going.
Report Barry Conway April 9, 2017 10:07 PM BST
Looking at this website:

7 of the top 10 earning sires last year were all by Sunday Silence. Not being an expert in this field, and only having a passing interest, surely this is not a good thing?
Report Madhu April 11, 2017 1:56 PM BST
Intergoal this one has some aspects relating to power and Arrowfield Stud's John Messara and his dealings with Coolmore and their joint-ownership of Danehill.
Report RoyalAcademy April 11, 2017 5:34 PM BST
Its very difficult to compare the different racing jurisdictions. Japan seems almost a "closed" economy and Coolmore's focus in recent times seems more on the US than Europe in stallion terms. Certainly, there's a lot more money in the East as they haven't to suffer the scourge of bookmakers. Strong prizemoney makes for strong local economies in the game.

My guess is that the ability of horses is not particularly different but home advantage always seems to confer large advantages. The top American dirt horses seem to be the occasional exception to this rule. One certainty is that if Phil Smith were the official Japanese handicapper, Irish horses would be the best in the world by some way.

What is inevitable is that what seems permanent in this game quickly evolves into unpredictability and change: witness all the racing dynasties that come and go relatively quickly.
Report cacique April 13, 2017 6:48 PM BST
RoyalAcademy • April 11, 2017 5:34 PM BST
witness all the racing dynasties that come and go relatively quickly

which racing dynasties? Coolmore,  Darley, juddmonte, shadai, aga?
Report RoyalAcademy April 14, 2017 9:44 PM BST
The Aga is the only longer term ownership above that stands the test of time. Generally, a modern dynasty will struggle to get beyond a single generation in my view and many others fizzle and spark and die within a few years.

Sangster, Niachos, Danny Schwartz, all the American owners attracted to Ballydoyle in the 70's and 80's, Wildenstein and the likely demise of the two French Jewish guys? Satish Sanan and some of the Kentucky families of yore, Nelson Bunker Hunt, Fahd Salman, St. George and many of the old traditional English owner-breeders.

Will Juddmonte survive Abdullah's passing? How much faith would you put in a Magnier to be as dominant as the godfather? Smith and Tabor will disappear and I often feel Sh. Mohammed's influence cannot be over-estimated-but where's the succession?
Report intergoal April 15, 2017 10:39 AM BST
Thanks for the responses and some interesting issues raised above. Most of the 'dynasties' named above range across continents these days and its interesting to see how many of them are closely associated with Arrowfield Stud in Australia.

But back to my original question about quality, we have become used to European based horses travelling to the four corners of the world and winning top races, perhaps taking it for granted that they represent the pinnacle of the sport. In the Global Impact video they make the point that it is no longer the case that overseas horses dominate, at least in Japan. What has changed, are Japanese horses now so much better, or are there other factors. Ten years is a very short time in breeding circles and for me at least, its stretching things to say that in that period Japanese horses have improved by so much.

The IFHA rankings should give us an accurate picture but to me they look a mess, Hartnell 123 anyone? I would think this would be as good a place as any to get an idea of what breeders, or those who have an interest in breeding, are thinking.
Report cacique April 15, 2017 11:43 AM BST
Fair point royal academy, claiborne has passed a couple of generations and still going strong,
you're correct  though coolmore won't last much after j magnier, juddmonte after abdullah, 

Back to op.
Once shadai get all the good mares, they will dominate.
Report lingbleed April 15, 2017 4:42 PM BST
i think you have to bring into account that the best europeon horse's rarely travel, to the japan cup or other big racing events around the world, coolmore dont bring there best to OZ or japan, highland reel is a very good horse , i would love to own him, but he wasn't the best of his generation they had. If churchhill does well he will go as far as france and maybe america, but you feel he will only go to america if he under achieved in europe.
Report A_T April 16, 2017 1:27 PM BST
it's all about the Sunday Silence line - Japan's Northern Dancer. And now European owner/breeders are starting to take notice of Deep Impact
Report neill d April 17, 2017 1:26 AM BST
There are only two races outside of the UK & Ireland Coolmore are bothered about, the Arc and the Breeders Cup Classic, and commercially; it is only the latter that is really a game changer. Autumn of the 3yo season is too late for when Coolmore need them.

Coventry and any Group 2yo race under a mile.

Newmarket Guineas/Irish Guineas/Epsom/ St James Palace/ Sussex /Juddmonte/Irish Champion/ English Champion

For a successful stallion, unless they are claiming their horse is the legit best in the world; they would nearly favour any of the above with the right pedigree to an Arc winner unless he is a STS type.

Australia and the Far East doesn't even register, form at 4 and form over there is just trying to pot hunt while at the same time showing the NH boys a bit of hardiness before they cover the big book!
Report neill d April 17, 2017 1:27 AM BST
The Foret is over a marketable trip for them too, and the July Cup, but think they have to be won with 3yos
Report cacique April 17, 2017 8:06 PM BST
maurice de gheest(?) won with college chapel, haydock, nunthorpe,
Report neill d April 18, 2017 12:18 AM BST
Yeah, I have missed out on a good few.

I'm not sure where races like the Leger, King George and Ascot Gold Cup are headed.
Report RoyalAcademy April 19, 2017 12:29 AM BST
Valid points neill. My own theory is that the fashion for speed is predominantly based on US trend that is caused by a lack of resilience due to drugs. Cool more have done their best to resurrect the Ascot Gold Cup but winners will sire hurdlers and chasers and are not commercial in the usual greedy sense. Stupid money has made the industry forget its heritage perhaps.
Report Eont April 19, 2017 10:08 AM BST
You have to look at total quality or individual quality.

The later the very best are right up there.

Then they tend to have a big drop off. If you look at the number of horses who win multiple legs of their triple crown races and the frequency shows the lack of depth.

That could lead to the stars being over rated. Interestingly only 2 Japanese horses have won group 1 races in Europe this century.
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