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brain dead jockeys
23 Nov 16 23:30
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Date Joined: 14 Jun 05
| Topic/replies: 4,915 | Blogger: brain dead jockeys's blog
there have been a number of letters to the racing post in recent weeks about this issue.............below is the link to the latest letter

http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/news/bloodstock/letter-stallions-being-judged-too-early/2198587/top/

im not a bloodstock expert but i notice a few things........
1. OWNERS OF A DERBY WINNER WILL SEEK TO WIN A 10F G 1 AS A PRIORITY.
2. NO ONE HAS ANY INTEREST IN BREEDING A STAYER...........ALL LEGER RUNNERS ARE G2 OR G3 12F HORSES AND WERE BRED FOR A MILE TO MILE HALF..........I CANT NAME A SUPERSTAR THAT WON THE LEGER.........NIJINSKY WAS A LONG TIME AGO
3. JOHN GOSDEN WAS ADAMANT THAT GOLDEN HORNS BEST TRIP WAS 10F NOT 12F..............DONT THINK SO JOHN, HIS DERBY AND ARC WINS WERE ELECTRIC..........12F WAS HIS BEST TRIP...........NICE STALLION ADVERTISING
4. A O BRIEN HAS HAD SO MANY G1 12F HORSES BUT HE IS ALWAYS ADAMANT THAT THEY ARE EQUALLY AS GOOD OVER 10F DESPITE FORM BOOK SAYING OTHERWISE
5. THE KING GEORGE IS NOW WAY BEHIND THE JUDDEMONT AND IRISH CHAMPION STAKES IN TERMS OF PRIORTY

So what are the ruling classes going to do about all of this? heres a few suggestions

1. There are two races in the UK beyond 12f..............the leger and the ascot gold cup.............so a breeder is expected to be able to breed a horse that stays 1m 6f and 2m 4f..............HOW THE HECK DOES THAT WORK? the ascot gold cup should be 2miles. end of story. thats one simple adjustment that might make a difference. what on earth is the point of a flat race beyond 2 miles?
2. All these g1 two year old races............no need.............lets downgrade the middle park and phoenix stakes from g1 to g2..............no more easy pickings for two year olds to be advertised as g1 winners
3. way way to many 8f & 10f g1 horses.............holy god.................. between ireland, uk and france besides the classics there are 3 12f g1 races...........coronation, king george and arc...........there should be a similar amount of 8f and 10 f g1 races.............
4. get rid of 5 f races.............
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Report brain dead jockeys November 23, 2016 11:37 PM GMT
1. There are two G1 races in the uk beyond 12f
3. way way too many 8f & 10f g1 RACES
Report Johnny_Mustang November 24, 2016 7:42 AM GMT
Here's the letter in its entirety.

This is the same Sue Cameron who also thought it would be a great idea to stand Thowra (yeah, look him up), quite possibly the worst stallion ever to set foot in a breeding shed. She comes out with all the usual ridiculous platitudes such as "the long-term detriment of the breed" with not one single cogent point to back them up.

Here's the letter in its entirety.

Breeder, bloodstock agent and journalist Sue Cameron from Melton Mowbray writes to warn against making judgements about stallions too early in their stud career

I'M SURE there are many breeders who will concur with Peter Stanley's lament over the sale of such useful sires as Champs Elysees and Mount Nelson. It is just another indication of the direction the industry is taking, to the long-term detriment of the breed.

The sad thing is that in an industry where perception seems to rule over fact, the minute any horse changes location to a so-called National Hunt stud he immediately becomes known as a National Hunt sire.

The horse has not changed and there is no reason to believe that, given the right mares, he can't continue to get high-class Flat winners.

His location has nothing whatsoever to do with it, but auction houses and many breeders will totally ignore the horse from then on. So even with the advantage of a likely much lower nomination fee, no Flat breeder who needs to sell can afford to use the horse any more.

What a waste. The question of perception is a curse in the thoroughbred industry: so often horses have been wrongly condemned or on the other hand wrongly lauded because people do not check the true facts but just follow on like sheep.

Years ago there was a well-known horse who got good-looking yearlings and people flocked to buy them. In fact the horse's ratio of winners to runners was appalling, but his sales success continued nevertheless. Equally there have been a number of commonly well-regarded horses who have got one or two outstanding offspring among a load of dross and yet they continued to attract large books of mares anyway.

The original opinion of both types of horse has often been formed far too early to judge, but minds are not easily changed. Why this should be when the facts are staring people in the face is a total mystery.

The auction houses do not always help as they too form an ‘opinion' and their actions can stymie a horse before it gets off the ground.

A few years ago practically all the mares in foal to a new stallion were placed on the last day of the December Sales and breeders immediately ignored the horse and he got few opportunities.

My husband Bill Cameron was the first person to publish winners-to-runners ratios for stallions, way back in the early 1970s. The figures were very revealing but had little effect on the commerciality or otherwise of the horses concerned.

A horse's success often seems to be more often influenced by his connections than his own abilities. Here again perception plays a large part. Another very wrong perception is that horses who can stay 12 furlongs are necessarily slow.

That is far from the case and yet any horse who steps past ten furlongs is immediately regarded in a derogatory fashion as a stayer, a reality mentioned by Peter Stanley in his excellent letter. But to have speed alone is no good, there needs to be a basis of stamina too and breeding solely for speed is a recipe for disaster.

Mr Stanley also mentions the fee for a good juvenile, retired far too early, as being only slightly less than that of a dual Derby winner. That sums up the whole situation in a nutshell, and something needs to be done along the lines suggested by Mr Stanley. And sooner rather than later.
Report kincsem November 27, 2016 4:29 PM GMT
Breeders have also rejected almost every sire line except Northern Dancer (from Pharos).  The other main line is Mr Prospector. (from Sickle).
These sire lines are working their way down from the top line of pedigrees (the sire line), are prevelant in the damsire line, and getting into every other line.

What we are getting is a lot of fast maturing slow sprinters.
Report The Headmaster November 28, 2016 12:21 AM GMT
1. There are two G1 races in the UK beyond 12f..............the leger and the ascot gold cup.............so a breeder is expected to be able to breed a horse that stays 1m 6f and 2m 4f..............HOW THE HECK DOES THAT WORK? the ascot gold cup should be 2miles. end of story. thats one simple adjustment that might make a difference. what on earth is the point of a flat race beyond 2 miles?

We had this stuff before when the Gold Cup was getting 5 runners in the 80s.  The race is thriving, leave it alone.  As for what's the point...one of the many points is tradition, which can never be too highly rated imo.  Can't understand why you think it it's impossible for a 3yo that gets 1m 6f to get 2m 4f as a 4yo?  Seems bloody obvious to me.  The problem is a trainer is never told to give his Leger winner a Cup campaign the following year.  Breeders are unfortunately one of the root causes.

2. All these g1 two year old races............no need.............lets downgrade the middle park and phoenix stakes from g1 to g2..............no more easy pickings for two year olds to be advertised as g1 winners

Don't fall for advertising is an obvious solution

3. way way to many 8f & 10f g1 races.............holy god.................. between ireland, uk and france besides the classics there are 3 12f g1 races...........coronation, king george and arc...........there should be a similar amount of 8f and 10 f g1 races.............

GP de Saint Cloud makes it 4 and the Tatts Gold Cup should be a 12f race and acts like one most years.  Not sure what difference making the Prince Of Wales a G2 would have.  Not a lot I suspect.


4. get rid of 5 f races.............
Laugh
Report brain dead jockeys December 2, 2016 3:31 AM GMT
japan is the only country where 12f is the real classic distance.......they want their stallions best trip to have been 12f.........when a horse wins the japan derby connections will target the st leger and the following year the priority will be the big races over 11f, 12f (2 races) and the 2 mile g1 race............uk should just copy japan with the amount of group races and the distance they are run over.
japn racing industry is the best in the world...........no where else comes close
Report cacique December 6, 2016 7:15 PM GMT
Prix vermeille is 12f

But there are too many group one  races for fillies mares. Falmouth, nassau, sun chariot how many do u need to decide a champion?



There are too many group ones at a mile, St James prix Le marois Sussex moulin qe2 foret, guineas winner could stay at a mile and then win 3 of these and go to stud a champion. LIKE kingman

Or Like Frankel could keep beating Exelebration over a mile and be hailed a superstar.


Agree too many easy group 1's for 2 year olds, the 10f one in France being prime example what are they trying to achieve with that?

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but the problem would correct itself if there was a limit to the stud book.

Let a stallion cover as many mares as he likes,  but only 40 get into the stud book.

You would then see more selective mares being sent to sires.

Bad sires would still get bad mares but nearly there sires would get a better chance.
Report truehoncho December 6, 2016 7:38 PM GMT
Why don't e go back to 4 mile heats, they were real horses!! And let's restrict stallion books that way we can get the unwashed working class out of the sport of kings. The reason so many people that are not millionaires have been able to enjoy ownership is because the sport has widened itself both in terms of distances and quality.There are now more low quality races and more sprinters as both are easier and cheaper to provide. Personally I think the English Derby should be reduced to 10f and the Leger should be 12f. The Ascot Gold Cup should be run in April at Cheltenham with the rest of the slow horses. This would allow us to see horses attempt a Triple Crown and still be exciting stallion prospects.
Report potentialmillionaire December 6, 2016 9:46 PM GMT
Cacique, do the top horses that run in Group 1s stand in the stable when you take away the races that they run in?

And by and large these races do get run at the correct standard or the will be downgraded if the quality of their winners/placed horses doesn't reach a required standard.

If you only want one group one race over a mile will you be happy to call that result the definitive race producing the definitive champion? They are horses after all and all sorts of things can and do go awry.

Very kind of you to consider the stallions sex life over and above the 40 mares who are allowed to produce a qualifying foal!
Report cacique December 7, 2016 7:39 PM GMT
PM
these fillies races are not what is required, at least spread out the distances they don't all have to be over around a mile.
The group one should be the culmination of of all the g3's and g2's winners and you get only one shot at winning the big one. The only run the Olympics every four years, but in horse racing it's one 3 times annually.


And limiting what stallions become sires would be beneficial to the breed. Similar to the  connemara pony society, they should have to meet certain requirement to be able to cover "unlimited" books.


or if they fail to be approved, then limit the number of foals that can be registered to them every year.

Wouldn't be long before a greater range of stallion was being used,

Cut out the $#!t the like worthadd/camacho/approve/ golden tornado being allowed to go to stud.
Report truehoncho December 7, 2016 9:28 PM GMT
Cacique,

there are already lot's of limitations on races horses can enter.
Restricting what stallions can go to stud and how many mares can be covered belongs in Communist Russia. Who is going to approve them, not the small breeder on a budget that's for sure.
Report cacique December 10, 2016 10:29 AM GMT
The jockey club the hra, any official horse body. RESTRICTING the amount of mares a stallion can cover would cut out coolmore power.

They have 16 national hunt sires churning out 200+ foals every year,  3200 foals, and most of their nh  sires were very good horses!


wrt opening comment, something needs to be done to get stayers back in fashion. Cutting down on g1's at 2yold would be a start.
Report potentialmillionaire December 10, 2016 2:35 PM GMT
cacique you need to keep working on this, as indeed do us all.

Anyone with a stake in the game needs to consider what's to be done as if we end up with homogenised races all below 1 1/4 miles we can't possibly hope to keep the paying public enthused.

Of course it's not really a question of fashion it's the usual ugly b@stard, money.
And of course impatience doesn't help when we now live in a world of instant gratification.

Waiting until your horse turns 3 or 4 before you find out it is no good is ruinously expensive. And for those who haven't had a horse in training you need to allow 20k a year for the pleasure plus ofcourse your purchase price.

Unfortunately you are never going to legislate to restrict mare numbers at any stallion as the 'restraint of trade' lawyers would be snivelling out of their lairs in a flash.
I think de stakesing the 2 yo programme wouldn't help much either as I don't see people wanting or indeed needing a quick return changing just because there isn't a grading to the races they want to win. If there is still a demand for the early 2yo then the early 2yo stallion will still be much in demand.
They will just find a different way of marketing them.

I think it has to be a case of making 3yo+ racing more attractive and lucrative.
Not trying to make 2yos a negative.

Who was it on here that suggested a series of qualifiers and a final,  for 3yo types?
Would it need to be restricted to under 100k yearlings?
It would need to be very valuable but I thought it might have legs?
Report Formtwist December 10, 2016 3:29 PM GMT
Restricting a stallion's book can be done by the authorities imposing a ratcheted levy on any amount in excess of 100 so that each additional mare earns a diminishing return to the stud and raises money for the authority to spend on encouraging relevant aspects of breeding such as a stamina-related series of races - including 10f juvenile races. The trouble would be to get both the UK and Ireland to adopt a unified approach to such a levy as that is a necessity for it to work. A restricted book will result on average in an increase in nomination fee I would expect, but that might not be the worst outcome. I would like to see the return of breeders' prizes out of such a levy, which could slant to stamina races, though I always felt it a shame that they didn't reward a quality of horse (say rated 80+) rather than just winners of categories of maidens. Germany successfully has a licence system for breeding qualities before a stallion can stand at stud, and some rules to improve and protect the quality of the thoroughbred would be welcomed by me too. Far too many stallions have serious issues of unsoundness of wind, limb and temperament, including stable vices, that are not publicly declared or known. It takes a heck of a lot of research by a breeder to elicit such information, and that at least should be addressed in my view.
Report cacique December 10, 2016 8:16 PM GMT
Lot of very good points raised/confirmed pm


Ft, I think the ratcheted levy is a start, if they want to cover more make them pay so it's not economically viable to do it,

It would probably make little difference to the very top end, galileo dubawi, the middle would get over priced, invincible spirt dark angel etc, but the bottom would have to provide something different to get breeders to use their stallions
Report potentialmillionaire December 10, 2016 8:50 PM GMT
I'm no legal eagle but I'm sure someone on here should have some contacts.

It's one thing asking stallion owners to voluntarily contribute to the EBF or breeders cup but surely quite another thing to penalise them for running their business, legally and let's face it conventionally i.e. Supply and demand led.

Can't ever happen I'm afraid!
Report jonnyrotten December 11, 2016 2:44 PM GMT
I am no expert but it seems to me the only way to alter the current trend is by self regulation, i.e the stallion masters need to impose restrictions them selves.

"could" this be done?

something like the stud book agrees to allow AI in return for restricting stallions to 100 foals per hemisphere?

would something like this be workable? and would it help?
Report cacique December 11, 2016 4:15 PM GMT
something like the stud book agrees to allow AI in return for restricting stallions to 100 foals per hemisphere?

Going the  ai route would just mean that we'd only have galileo  covering for the rest of time.


would it work? I think its only a matter of time, supply/demand if you decrease the supply the price of the foals will go up. Price of the foals go up you get better mares to the sire.



http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/restricted-books-for-ballyhane-sires/
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