Bloodstock & Breeding

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15 Jan 16 15:31
Date Joined: 14 Jan 16
| Topic/replies: 9 | Blogger: Pannacotta's blog
My mare, a very expensive yearling but a hopeless racehorse, has some very impressive horses a couple of generations back. Her dam was a half sister to a Irish Derby second but things weren't looking that great when I found her in a very sorry state having failed to cope with life in Newmarket. Last year her 2yr old sister won at listed level in Italy and another unraced sister produced a 2yr old Colt that also won twice at listed level there, all at 6 furlongs. Does that sort of success in Italy impress the buyers over here? I recall Potentialmillionaire describing someone else's blacktype as cheaply bought and fear that I fall into the same category!
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Report proxygene January 16, 2016 4:35 PM GMT
Some black type is better than no black type. If somebody wants to be sniffy it's Italian well at least they bothered looking.
Report Pannacotta January 17, 2016 12:46 AM GMT
Thanks for that, hopefully they will be too busy looking at the yearling to look that closely at the page. Stallion selection is the current dilemma... do you think Mustajeeb would be a good choice for a middle distance mare with 3 lines of Northern Dancer? Your advice is very helpful as I am always drawn to the stallions that prove the least commercial.
Report truehoncho January 17, 2016 11:39 AM GMT
If you are looking to sell, I wouldn't worry about how many lines of ND you have.
Report Formtwist January 17, 2016 6:19 PM GMT
What was the sire that produced the dual listed winner colt from the sister? If it were a full sister I'd be looking to the same sire or similar to attract the buyers and get the best sale slot.
Report Pannacotta January 17, 2016 9:17 PM GMT
It was Kyllachy, out of half sister. I had thought about going down that route but 15k is a lot for me to find, hence my original question about how much credit the Italian form would be given. I like the idea of keeping them to race but need to keep the option of selling when the money runs out!
Report Pannacotta January 17, 2016 10:29 PM GMT
Keep the fillies and sell the colts would be more realistic for my set-up.
Report Formtwist January 17, 2016 11:06 PM GMT
Pannacotta, would I be correct that you have already started breeding this mare in a somewhat different direction and that it is the success of her relatives last year that have prompted you to think of breeding to speed for the flat? If so, I see why Kyllachy would be a tough call to make now. As well as Mustajeeb you might consider in the same rough area as I think you are Coach House who covered a fair book last year and is the sort to get runners and winners with his first crop.
Report proxygene January 18, 2016 12:33 AM GMT
If you did want to squeeze Kyllachy in somewhere could try through Garswood; whether a buyer would notice the connection would be another matter.
Report truehoncho January 18, 2016 9:46 AM GMT
If you are looking to breed to something similar to Kyllachy, Monsieur Bond might be an alternative. I'm not sure how commercial he is these days but he should be available for south of £4k.

He doesn't really get precocious stuff but they do improve with age and he will be getting group winners over the next few seasons which may help if you want to sell. Also his record with fillies is quite good so if you kept one to race it gives you a chance. I bet you get get a deal with a free return for a filly if you tried.
Report Pannacotta January 18, 2016 4:05 PM GMT
You're quite right Formtwist about the change of direction with the mare but maybe not as great a u-turn as it first appears. I was trying to breed a 10 or 12 furlong horse that, when it failed to win the Yorkshire Oaks or King George, could be rerouted to the triumph hurdle. So far so good as the first foal is a carbon copy of her beautiful mother but without the Montjeu madness that thwarted her career. I have a few national hunt stores here but you could never mistake this foal for one of those. I am a bit wary of trying to speed things up and ending up with a mismatch, although a shortage of speed was not (reportedly) the problem with the mare.
Report Formtwist January 18, 2016 5:59 PM GMT
In addition to Montjeu, you have also High Top in the damline who I have always found to be a transmitter of a temperament issue - in fact, I believe that it is his influence through Top Ville that gave Montjeu that character. So you need sires who are regularly producers of calm stock. You might look at the Bearstone horses as also near you - Firebreak is particularly good in that mould and sells reasonably well if needed. Gets tough and sound runners too. Their new sire is a great looker, but as first season what he transmits who knows. Bearstone will usually do a deal on an advertised fee. Good luck, anyway.
Report Pannacotta January 18, 2016 8:39 PM GMT
Thank you very much for all the advice. I will go and see them at Bearstone as I have always thought Firebreak looked a very good sort; a bit like Kyllachy in the photos but maybe that's just the colour. I remember that Primadonna was a big exponent of Firebreak. I recently read back through some of the old posts where he and his wife put some of their breeding theories on here to inform the uninitiated (like me now) where they were going wrong. What a great man.
Report proxygene January 18, 2016 11:20 PM GMT
I'm not so good at the cryptography but think I've finally locked on.
Can't find your first direction but if it was Galileo based all well and good.
For speed I would also look at Pastoral Pursuits, now taking what chances he's had, proven and bought into.
Mustajeeb positive choice, his Dad if you dare,
Telescope if you forget the speed, Delegator if you take a view.
Report Formtwist January 19, 2016 8:42 AM GMT
Proxy, Pastoral Pursuits would be a bad choice for temperament in my view, but he's a fair sire, Telescope Mustajeeb and Delegator unproven as to either. Nayef lovely big horse and classy sire, but unlikely to impart speed and precocity to this mare. Good value owner breeder sire now though.
Report Posh Paddy January 19, 2016 2:29 PM GMT
Farhh? Only £8k from initial £17.5 and also a son of Pivotal with stamina on his Dam side which could suit your mare's page.

Obviously unproven and 4th season very risky if wanting to sell but if you are happy to race then maybe worth a look?

Anyone used him or seen any of his progeny?
Report truehoncho January 19, 2016 8:09 PM GMT
I will be using Telescope but not until his 3/4th season when he is cheapest. There is very little chance he will prove commercial so little point paying 1st season premium.

I don't see Pastoral Pursuits as very commercial and he isn't as good as Monsieur Bond. If Kyllachy was an option on pedigree then MB has the edge here.

If you like owner breeder types don't ignore Lucarno. Not everyone's cup of tea but has thrown  flat horses and you will have an option to sell to the NH boys. Get a free return for a filly, race her and sell the colt to pay for it all (if you get one!!) :-)
Report proxygene January 19, 2016 9:42 PM GMT
I have Mon Bond in the bottom 20 sires of two year olds, not as bad as that with his older runners. Suddenly popular; for me suddenly not.

I Dont mind Pastoral Pursuits but 'cover by numbers' suggests he likes Montjeu hence the suggestion. Steady book sizes decent last season, no longer in competition with Dad. Not familiar enough for me to know temperament though. Interesting to put PP photo alongside sire of subject mares.

Sixties Icon underrated does get a 2yo if pushed; commerciality damaged from day of the St Leger and by too early price hike. Other than Telescope the only cheap source of Galileo. (does anyone else think RoC price realistic?)

Do NH sires have a 1st season premium?
Report Pannacotta January 19, 2016 11:16 PM GMT
I like the idea of Farhh PP and hadn't seen the drop in fee so definitely needs further thought. He seems to have a lot of barrens in the return of mares which I presume is a concern though. He appears to have a massive splint on his off fore so I wonder if that is why he was fragile to train; it would be reassuring if that was all it was. His pedigree seems ideal for my purposes and a filly could then go back to the Danehill line sires in the future.

I can't help but like Telescope but that goes a bit against this exercise of trying to make my offspring commercial to the flat market but would certainly appeal to me.
Report Formtwist January 20, 2016 7:15 AM GMT
Farrh was operated on for bone chips, I believe more than once.
Report truehoncho January 20, 2016 10:28 AM GMT
I agree with you about MB's 2yo's Proxygene, but if Telescope was in the mix then I assumed precociousness was not the primary focus. He will continue to get sprint group winners in the coming years and the influx of mares he got 3 years ago will produce above average sprinters for him and I think he will get a little more popular in the sales (but I agree that he isn't th emost commercial choice).

As far as Telescope is concerned, he will be forgotten in 2 years and you will get him for £1500 plus a free return for a filly. I think that will be a good deal because if he does get a few 2yo winners you get a bit of a premium (there won't be many at the yearling sales).

If you are trying to be commercial for 4k or 5k there are the obvious few first seasoners or Fast Company. Spending £8k on Farhh seems a lot of money, you will have to get £20k for a yearling to make it worth while. I hate to admit it but horses like Due Diligence are a much better bet than Farhh but you will have to sell and your posts suggest you want to race them.

If you want to race them absolutely look at some NH sires. Do not be conned by the commercial propaganda. You will have just as much chance of a winner with Telescope as you will with the likes of DD.
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