Bloodstock & Breeding
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8 of the 12 entered in the Leger are by Coolmore stallions.
Coolmore stallions can't make sageforms monthly list
They breed a lot of slow horses.
I wouldn't touch them with a 40' barge pole.
Look elsewhere.
Coolmore stallions can't make sageforms monthly list
They breed a lot of slow horses.
I wouldn't touch them with a 40' barge pole.
Look elsewhere.
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Thanks be to The Gotchee and his advice.
I have just rung J. M. and cancelled my two nominations to Galileo for 2016. Why I ever thought him a useful sire heaven only knows. . . . |
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I don't think they would have built the most successful breeding operation in history if they just "breed a lot of slow horses".
On a different note, other than Gleneagles, what new sires will they be standing next year? |
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I too would be very happy to take anyone's spare Galileo nomination that they don't fancy...
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It is a "smoke and mirrors operation"
When Galileo goes they might as well shut up shop. In fairness, he is a good stallion but has he ever produced a decent sprinter/ miler? Plenty go the national hunt route and as you can see from the leger entries he will create a record this year for a stallion by supplying the most progeny in the oldest classic. Nothing to write home about. I would put most of his success down to the exceptional mares he has visited. |
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'In fairness, he is a good stallion but has he ever produced a decent sprinter/ miler?'
He had quite a good one trained near me up on Warren Hill, I think his name began with an F. They did well buying Canford Cliffs, so they may well try the same trick again. |
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Frankel is a good one and there is no dispute about that but was a mile his best trip? Give me 10 other top class milers he has produced? He must have had 10 crops of racing age and he has produced one"freak" out of about 2000 runners.
Galileo was a 12 furlong horse and when dropped back to 10 furlongs on his last two runs he disappointed. In conclusion, there is very little chance of him producing a precocious 2 year old, sprinter or a decent miler. If he does it will be from the dams side where the influence will come. Pour Moi, as discussed on another thread is another "slow coach" stallion. |
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Gotchee sometimes I can't believe even you take seriously what you write! Do you have some sort of Tourette's!
Found, Frankel Kingsbarns Glen eagles Golden lilac Lush Lashes Magician Marvellous Maybe Misty for Me Nighttime Rip van winkle Roderick Oconnor Teofilo Together Forever Together Are all gp1 winning milers for their sire. Now pick holes in them as you wish, but perhaps you could give us a list of the higher achievers out there. I for one am very excited that there are better sires out there as he remains a little out of reach financially! |
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I think it has been said before ,but i don't think Gotchee likes coolmore very much , as he does come out with this stuff once a year or so .
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Pretty unimpressed PotM - thats a decent list but you missed (imo) his best ever speed son in NEW APPROACH. Just the FIVE JUVENILE wins at 7f on heavy to GF including 2 Grp1s. You may as well argue that grass isn't green.
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Sorry yer ma, but the list was thrown together and wasn't intended to be exhaustive.
I leave the 100% definitive unequivocal posts on here to The Gotchee!! Did you sell at Donny or are you Tattsing it with your yearling colt? |
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New Approach won the derby running like a miler. Blistering in the Champion Stakes as well. God I miss the Newmarket version of that race, great spectacle.
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potm,I don' think any on your list are / were dedicated milers? That's what I was trying to extract from the question posed. Sure enough,nearly, if not all on your list were campaigned at a lot further than a mile and a good few were winning milers at 2 years old.
Gleneagles is the only one I can see who hasn't been asked to go further than a mile (3 year old +). Let's hope he goes in the Irish Champion at the weekend because he is in a win win situation. If he wins, well he is going to be "The best I ever trained but has so much speed his best trip is at a mile".Here is O'Briens latest quote on the horse in relation to Saturdays race“It wouldn't be fair to run him [Gleneagles] unless it is good or better,” O’Brien said. “He's a fast horse, there's no doubt he's a genuine miler - obviously 1m2f is not ideal but you have no idea about the trip. If he gets beaten the excuse will be "He has so much speed, he didn't see out the trip". Another sceneairo, the one I suspect will happen is he wont run, rain is expected and ground won't be faster than good. They will wait for the British Champions day, have a look at the likely contenders and swerve it when they see Solow, Kodi Bear and Esoterique. In all likelihood the ground at Ascot will be on the slow side. I believe the three year colts are a poor lot this year. In the case of Gleneagles, he hasn't beaten much and Coolmore are scared shitle$$ to let him take on his elders. Gleneagles is their best chance of convincing people that he is genuine dedicated miler son of Galileo. What I suspect will happen is he will never run again and retire as Galileo's best ever miler. |
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once again . have you never heard of FRANKEL
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I'm not sure if this is a thread about miler stallions, slow horses, or the St Leger.
Here are a few other Galileo Group 1 winners Adelaide Alandi Allegretto Altano Australia Cape Blanco Cima De Triomphe Galikova Golden Lilac Great Heavens Imperial Monarch Intello Lily Of The Valley Nathaniel Noble Mission Red Rocks Romantica Ruler Of The World Sans Frontiers Sixties Icon Soldier Of Fortune Spiritjim Tapestry Treasure Beach Was |
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Galileo Group 1 winning offspring at under 12f
I have left in the 2yo wins Race______________________Course______________Name____dist_ff Secretariat Stakes__________Arlington Park_______Adelaide____10.0f International Stakes________York________________Australia____10.0f Irish Champion Stakes_______Leopardstown______Cape Blanco____10.0f Arlington Million Stakes____Arlington Park_______Cape Blanco____10.0f Man O' War Stakes___________Belmont Park______Cape Blanco____11.0f Derby Italiano______________Capannelle_________Cima De Triomphe____10.9f Prix Marcel Boussac_________Longchamp_________Found____08.0f Dewhurst Stakes_____________Newmarket_________Frankel____07.0f English 2000 Guineas________Newmarket_________Frankel____08.0f English Champion Stakes_____Ascot______________Frankel____10.0f International Stakes________York________________Frankel____10.0f Lockinge Stakes_____________Newbury___________Frankel____08.0f Queen Anne Stakes___________Ascot_____________Frankel____08.0f Queen Elizabeth II Stakes___Ascot_______________Frankel____08.0f St James Palace Stakes______Ascot______________Frankel____08.0f Sussex Stakes_______________Goodwood_________Frankel____08.0f Sussex Stakes_______________Goodwood_________Frankel____08.0f English 2000 Guineas________Newmarket_________Gleneagles____08.0f Irish 2000 Guineas__________The Curragh_________Gleneagles____08.0f National Stakes_____________The Curragh_________Gleneagles____07.0f Poule D'Essai Des Pouliches_Longchamp__________Golden Lilac____08.0f Prix D'Ispahan______________Longchamp_________Golden Lilac____09.2f Prix De Diane_______________Chantilly___________Golden Lilac____10.4f Prix Du Jockey Club_________Chantilly___________Intello____10.4f Racing Post Trophy__________Doncaster_________Kingsbarns____08.0f Prix De L'Opera_____________Longchamp_________Lily Of The Valley____09.9f Coronation Stakes___________Ascot______________Lush Lashes____08.0f Matron Stakes_______________Leopardstown______Lush Lashes____08.0f Irish 2000 Guineas__________The Curragh_________Magician____08.0f Irish 1000 Guineas__________The Curragh_________Marvellous____08.0f Moyglare Stud Stakes________The Curragh_________Maybe____07.0f Prix Marcel Boussac_________Longchamp_________Misty For Me____08.0f Irish 1000 Guineas__________The Curragh_________Misty For Me____08.0f Moyglare Stud Stakes________The Curragh_________Misty For Me____07.0f Pretty Polly Stakes_________The Curragh___________Misty For Me____10.0f Eclipse Stakes______________Sandown____________Nathaniel____10.0f Dewhurst Stakes_____________Newmarket_________New Approach____07.0f English Champion Stakes_____Newmarket_________New Approach____10.0f Irish Champion Stakes_______Leopardstown________New Approach____10.0f National Stakes_____________The Curragh_________New Approach____07.0f Irish 1000 Guineas__________The Curragh_________Nightime____08.0f English Champion Stakes_____Ascot______________Noble Mission____10.0f Tattersalls Gold Cup________The Curragh_________Noble Mission____10.5f Man O' War Stakes___________Belmont Park________Red Rocks____11.0f International Stakes________York_________Rip Van Winkle____10.0f Queen Elizabeth II Stakes___Ascot_________Rip Van Winkle____08.0f Sussex Stakes_______________Goodwood_________Rip Van Winkle____08.0f Criterium International_____Saint Cloud_________Roderic O'Connor____08.0f Irish 2000 Guineas__________The Curragh_________Roderic O'Connor____08.0f Prix Jean Romanet___________Deauville_________Romantica____09.9f Dewhurst Stakes_____________Newmarket_________Teofilo____07.0f National Stakes_____________The Curragh_________Teofilo____07.0f Queen Elizabeth II Challenge__Keeneland_________Together____09.0f Fillies Mile Stakes_________Ascot_______________Together Forever____08.0f Secretariat Stakes__________Arlington Park______Treasure Beach____10.0f |
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The gobshee's a good un
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Glen Eagles pulled out of the Champion Stakes at Leopardstown ground too soft.
No problem with the ground for his full sister, Coolmore in the first. Funny old game this breeding. |
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'Its the right decision for the horse, y'see' says Aidan....
Shrewd lads the Coolmore boys, you can't get beat if you don't run, so you can add a few grand to the covering fee when he retires to stud.... I can see it now... 'Galileo's unbeaten miling star'. Who's this Frankel anyway? |
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It was announced on the TV coverage that Gleneagles was going to do an exercise gallop at Leopardstown after racing.
Did he? Was he carrying a sign advertising his stud fee? |
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Do we think that breeders are sitting at home thinking "great, the less often we see this horse and the less chance of him being beaten the better. Keep it so and then also, we'll happily pay more for him" ?
I for one am not particularly enamoured of his ability to stay at home and his lack of versatility isn't of particular appeal. The ability to turn up, run a great race - maybe in defeat too - grind it out, get your bottom smacked and then turn up the next time and do it all over again, are great assets to take to stud. A truncated career won't put everyone off for sure,in fact it won't put most people off, but I think only a genuine disaster will enable top dollar to be charged for such a horses services at stud. "Yes we know his career finished in June and he was rated only 122 and he couldn't cope with any ground variations" Not great tag lines for a top fee are they. His earning potential right now can be enhanced - and it looks like the Breeders Cup will offer the best chance of his ground - and keeping him at home will keep a cap on his fee, not send it stratospheric like a well timed blaze of glory would. And yes, breeding is a funny old game The Gotchee. There's a lot of genes rattling round in there and we don't get to pick the ones that make the decisions! |
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What has made Coolmore the best over the last 40 years has been their ability to get stuck into the new super-sires quicker than anyone else;
Northern Dancer,... Saddlers Wells,.... Danehill,..... Galileo,.... War Front...(Gleneagles?/Air Force Blue?) |
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8 of the 12 entered in the Leger are by Coolmore stallions.
Coolmore stallions can't make sageforms monthly list They breed a lot of slow horses. I wouldn't touch them with a 40' barge pole. Look elsewhere. Wouldnt mind a 25% share in Operation Slow Horse....... |
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PM my comments regarding Gleneagles were very much tongue in cheek.
The boys seem to be changing their story as the season goes along-first of all 'he's a miler and he's got a lot of speed', so he doesn't run in the Derby (despite his Dosage Index being very similar to Golden Horn). Now he's a rainstorm away from competing in a very tough 10F race....I noticed Aiden said that he'd been trained 'very hard' for the race-another excuse for not running in the future? The horse is not versatile as regards ground as you say-who was it who said that all good horses go on any ground?'. Unless we see him again, Gleneagles will go to stud with a whiff of 'Attraction' about him. She beat up all of her own age group without any trouble, but when she met a decent older filly, she wasn't sighted again... I hope Gleneagles appears again, and has the opportunity to show us what a very good colt his is (or not) but I'm not banking on it. |
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I am not sure Gleneagles will go to stud in Ireland. The Americans will see the unbeaten tag much better.
He would appear on paper to be an ideal Giant's Causeway replacement at Ashford if he runs well in the BC Classic. |
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Well done with Ribbons BBC, now there's an example of a horse enhancing her reputation by turning up and maybe getting beat, Last year she was a 'lucky gp1 winner' this year she's looking much more solid.
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Hard to see why a racing / breeding club wouldnt cash in on this likeable mare - can really plan for the future with £1.5m in the bank and presumably there are (or plans for) sisters to keep. Being very harsh and poor memory there on Attraction BBC - clearly not a match for Soviet Song twice on her ground (although she had already won two classics and a Coronation in 9 weeks before they met) but did beat older fillies in 2 Grp1s AFTER coming 2nd to SS
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I stand corrected yer ma, my rose tinted spectacles I'm afraid, although clearly Chic was a different class of animal to Soviet Song. The Falmouth and the Matron stakes were proper good performances-I still think there's no way she can win the Matron and she's in a different parish at one point. Mr Murtagh admitted afterwards that 'The mare got me out of trouble'.
Ribbons is an underrated animal, she wasn't right at Deauville and her third in the Pretty Polly is pretty strong form. She will be going to the Champion stakes next, if the trainer gets his way. Very pleased for Ribbons PM, thank you. The club has a half sister and a daughter of Soviet Song as yearlings, so they could sell the mare, and retain the breeding line However, the club recently outlined its plan for the horses, and the intention very much is to retain Ribbons for the breeding programme. Money talks however, and if you were to put in a sneaky £2M bid, then you'd have a sniff of getting her I'd think? :-) |
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The Gotchee 07 Sep 15 21:27 In fairness, he is a good stallion but has he ever produced a decent sprinter/ miler? truehoncho Joined: 11 Dec 10 Replies: 655 07 Sep 15 21:52 He had quite a good one trained near me up on Warren Hill, I think his name began with an F. End thread. |
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The gobshee is the frankel of idiots on any forum, people have no idea what kind of a lug we are dealing with. I had no choice but to block the donkey, even though some of it was funny, all of it was nonsense .
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You know how plans change in the bloodstock business......???
How much would you give me for a 5 yo mare, out of a full sister to a World Champion racemare (miler)? The mare herself a Group 1, 2 and Listed winner. What would be your reserve allowing for normal looks/conformation etc? TIA BBC |
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So, How much would/will Ribbons make should she show up at public auction, and recommend an Irish Bloodstock agent.
Just two of the questions floating round with frankly not much of an answer for either! I would say between 500k and 3m for Ribbons. Now whilst I know that is not remotely helpful it can only ever be a guess when you don't know which of the power players will be playing at Tatts and you don't have the remotest of clues as to what the mare looks like. For those of you who would dispute the lower figure I can think of the conformationally challenged Lyric Fantasy and Diamond White as ancient examples of what can happen and at the top end, if thought ridiculous, I give you Sander Camillo! |
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Im hoping Coolmore desperately, desperately want her PM :-) Sheikh Thani did buy Goldmember who is her half brother, so they may be interested too....
The club were bitten hard by not selling Soviet Song for £2M when they had the chance to. She ran with credit at 6 but has not been a success at stud. Once bitten twice shy as they say.... We have been promised significant reinvestment in bloodstock should the reserve being met. If you are selling/buying PM, then the very best of luck! BBC |
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Gleneagles shown up today as below average. He is no superstar miler, his best trip is more than likely 1m 4f. Potential stud fee gone from 50k to 15k after todays exploits.
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I'd say you near c3me in your 9ants Gotchee when he got beat , you could not wait to stick the knife in . What about AFB how do you think he will do next year you where prob in tears when he hacked up last weekend
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Gotchee = idiot.
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In fairness folks, the picture did make me chuckle.
(And marvel in the technical talent that allows such a post to be made) But can you imagine the rush to get into Gleneagles at €15? Hopefully Christy in the stampede will be like one of those 70's toys that wobbles but won't fall down! |
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Some people around here need to take a "chill pill"
In all fairness, Gleneagles is NOT an above average miler and that was borne out by the result yesterday. He has never beaten anything of substance and he needs to be upped in trip. They should retire him now because he won't beat any decent milers. HGD |
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Whilst The Gotchee does have some rather individual views around Coolmore and it's stallions, I think that in this instance he has a valid point. Though a little extreme in terms of fee range and distance preference, you could legitimately ask what he has actually beaten and the total farce surrounding his will he/won't he campaign only shows a protectionist (fearful?) stance. Gleneagles' own trainer has been quoted before that 'good horses go on any ground'...... As for fee I cannot see this horse being anymore than 30k and possibly 25k. Whilst he undoubtedly has the better pedigree, his form is a little behind the likes of Excelebration and Rip Van Winkle who retired at 22.5 and 20k respectively. The hype machine could maybe pull him to the upper level of my estimate but i would be surprised if it could really be higher? Of course this would be subject to his performance in the US but I think there may be some doubt over whether he actually goes there (what a surprise!) my guess is that he will tread on a stone in the next few days if he hasn't already acquired an injury in running yesterday....
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aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh
Stand by your beds lads, we're all in trouble now. (And delighted to be so, too) |