Best Stallion in Ireland for under 20K?

To race or to sell?

Have you thought of So You Think, There are very expensive mares being covered by him and at 12,500 it seems reasonable.

What do we think of the start Rip V Winkle made?

Seems crazy we operate in a world where a first crop 2yo group 1 winner doesn't propel the stallion forward!?

My top 10 in Ireland 20k or less
1 Cape Cross
2 Holy Roman Emperor
3 Dalakhani
4 Footstepsinthesand
5 Big Bad Bob
6 Henrythenavigator
7 Intikhab
8 Clodovil
9 Raven's Pass
10 Tamayuz

What cross is your mare?

The made is by Dilshaan. He was a half decent racehorse but has only had moderate success at stud.

Hoping to keep the foal to race.

I'm a big fan of So You Think as a racehorse and as a physical specimen but I'm not mad about his pedigree. His sales returns weren't too great last year either.

She's not the biggest filly in the world so that rules out HRE, Henry and Clodovil.

Dylan Thomas if  you're planning on racing, put the 16k you save towards  training fees. Don't think I'd use dalakhani ( by daarshan) on a dilshaan (by daarshan) mare

I think Dylan Thomas is fantastic value.

I know Dalakhani is by Darshaan but if I was to get a filly she'd be inbred to Darshaan and would be a very interesting breeding prospect for the future.

1972, caution is the watchword here!

Sorry to be a bore, but you have a few years to play with, with a new mare, and as I'm guessing your mare has done a lot of racing and is a year or two older than most new broodmares, I would suggest that year one should be treated a little more experimentally than a gung ho big stud fee would allow.
If she does a good job, let's down well then throw money at the situation in years 2 and 3 when a mare statistically has the best chance of producing her best runners.

If you are breeding to race then you needn't spend big money to get a decent stallion anyway as you can ignore fashion and breed to the mares strengths. You don't need to chase precocious, and doing so may well not pay dividends as the mare may get in the way and you'll find yourself with a hybrid without an aptitude.
You don't need to chase big either so if you fancy Clodovil or HRE go for it. You say your mare is small and useful, well so we're they!! Plenty of anecdotal evidence says that it is the small HRE's that are the runners anyway.

I wouldn't inbreed to Darshaan, it wouldn't be nice to be on the gallops when it's leg snapped, and there is plenty of evidence to indicate inbreeding 2x3 has a very low success rate.
Also, if you can avoid too much inbreeding to Danzig, then that is desirable also, as it has a considerably lower success rate than we all would like.

So You Think would be a good mate in terms of aptitude, but he would give you 2 lines of Darshaan. He is a big, bad winded horse by a stallion that consistently gets bad winded horses so those are the type of gambles I always think are best left to others!

Hi 1972,
Inevitably there are wiser correspondents on here with better memories and more success on their CV’s  than me but FWIW (ie ignore it freely) here’s my observations.

Firstly congratulations or commiserations on aspiring to become the endangered species that is the owner breeder. Some of us would love to be one but pretending with your mare is as close as we may get. There seems to be only one mare that she can possibly be so it’s not one of PM’s hardest of guesses. Your mare looks interesting. By an underwhelming sire (albeit from limited opportunities) but with decent broodmare sires and some speed elements in the pedigree. Although I seem to remember the sire as a streaky racehorse his daughter seems to have been robust enough to improve with age and distance. As pointed out it does leave her as a late starter.

The reply I had been preparing does concur with what has been posted though perhaps with different wording. 20k does sound a bit like overcovering for her first year, unless of course if you have a war chest (sounds like another new Coolmore sire) of 50k for subsequent seasons...

If I might be so bold I think you need to be clear on your plans at an early stage, particularly if you have no intention of moving the mare on, so as mentioned elsewhere budgets for future years will be equally as important as this years. If you are certain of retaining the offspring you have the luxury of being able to ignore sales stats, not worry about book sizes or being a victim of fashion, and of not having to target growth and development of foal towards sales dates. You shouldn’t however become distracted from your number one aim of producing the best racehorse you can. In the early stage looking to breed from any future generation will do you, your mare any filly and your finances no favours, particularly if it turns out it can’t run. PM’s warnings of inbreeding are specific and based on experience, wisdom and a degree of gossip. Analytically I would agree with the Darshaan, possibly not with the Danzig as one branch would be 5th generation, though the Green Desert through Cape Cross would be closer and worthy of more caution.

I also wonder if he might have gone a bit too OwnerBreeder about her considering she is an older mare. Her first foal won't hit the racecourse before she’s at least 12. It doesn’t leave much time to adjust sights or exploit the evidence compared to a 4yo maiden, so some degree of urgency might be sensible. Precocity in itself isn’t necessarily a bad thing, so long as it doesnt lead to breakdowns and the sire passes a tendency to train on. To know what was good or bad about a mating a year or 2 earlier can make a difference.

I was going to trot out the why try and fit a quart in a pint pot analogy about size particularly in a first foal, but I’m not sure I can back it up, and I still don't know what to make of Ivawood on that basis.

So to the punchline. I did run an analysis through my system based on what I have on Dilshaan and the mares broodmare and maternal grandsire records. This takes no account of physical or temperament matches as you will know more about your mare and her relatives than I ever will. Top 3 sires in budget were in the UK, next 3 in Ireland were unproven, (Alhabayeb/Lillbourne Lad/Worthadd) leaving:

1 Haatef (too small and cheap?)
2 Tamayuz (especially if you like matching family numbers)
3 Arakan (well you dont mind jumpers)
4 Footstepsinthesand
5 Tagula
6 Ravens Pass
With Beat Hollow, Baltic King  and Cape Cross quite a bit further back.

If you do manage to scrimp initially then in future years it would be nice for you to target Acclamation or Dark Angel if they ever came back in budget range.

Good Luck

I might as well throw my two pence worth as well.  I agree with PM, throwing €20k at your mare first time up may not be the wisest and the fact you are keeping to race opens things up massively as you are not bound by commercial pressures. God knows the €10 - €20k bracket is one of the most difficult to operate in and even more so if you are dealing with a middle distance pedigree too.

Below is a list of your options (everything below €20k in Ireland:

Alfred Nobel
Alhebayeb
Approve
Arakan
Arcano
Baltic King
Beat Hollow
Big Bad Bob
Born To Sea
Bungle Inthejungle
Camacho
Cape Cross
Casamento
Clodovil
Dalakhani
Dandy Man
Dragon Pulse
Dream Ahead
Elusive Pimpernel
Elzaam
Es Que Love
Excelebration
Famous Name
Fast Company
Finsceal Flor
Footstepsinthesand
Frozen Power
Gale Force Ten
Haatef
Helmet
Henrythenavigator
Holy Roman Emperor
Intense Focus
Intikhab
Kingsbarns
Lilbourne Lad
Lord Shanakill
Moohaajim
Morpheus
No Nay Never
Pour Moi
Power
Raven's Pass
Red Jazz
Requinto
Rock Of Gibraltar
Roderic O'Connor
Ruler Of The World
Sir Prancealot
Slade Power
Society Rock
So You Think
Tagula
Tamayuz
Thewayyouare
Vale Of York
War Command
Worthadd
Xtension
Zebedee
Zoffany

Obviously most of these would be completely unsuitable but at least you've got a complete list to work off.

Big Bad Bob (€9k) has done well and has some sizeable books to come.  The ones I ve seen by and large are a nice bunch however be warned they are a bit quirky. His winners to runners rate is around 50% (over all years) which is pretty decent when you consider most his runners have been in Ireland where racing is so competitive.

Intense Focus (7k) might be worth considering too as he has done ok with a decent winners to runners ratio (44% this year).

If you are determined to spend big money then maybe Camelot who you should be able get below the advertised €25k might be worth a shot, my spies tell me he is a really good specimen (albeit unproven).

Failing that you could also go National Hunt.....

Anyway best of luck.

Big Bad Bob is an outstanding stallion. I wouldn't look any further. His best 2 year old filly this year is Cherie Good. Her dam is Kristal Xenia, one of the smallest fillies I ever saw racing. He is going to have a great year this season with his runners.
So You Think has wind issues so I would steer clear.

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to give me their opinions and advice.

Although my intention is to race there might be no harm in keeping my options open so it would be nice to have a marketable foal should the need arise.

As it happens I went to Derrinstown back in 2013 to have a look at Haatef. I had near enough decided to use him but when I got there I was much more impressed with Elnadim. I used Elnadim that year and last year too but the mare didn't get in foal either time. Tamayuz was impressive too from what I remember. Intikhab didn't impress me too much. Reminded me too much of a small NH horse!

As you can see, although she hasn't had a foal yet it hasn't been through lack of trying so impatience will probably affect my decision making! If she's going to be hard to get in foal then I might not get too many chances.

She does have a bit of a temperament and it seems to run in the family.

Would that change any of your recommendations?

With Elnadim covering very restricted books, ostensibly from legacies of hind leg injury, but now being retired you must be wondering if your mare has contributed to lack of conception. Again this will alter your priorities, can you increase her chances? If you feel Derrinstown would look upon her as unfinished business, rather than glad to see the back of her, their sensible book sizes wouldn't be a bad starting point.

I still think Tamayuz is a little overpriced but they do seem to sell ok if you needed to, and if she didn't get in foal then no fee to pay anyway. Haatef would probably have to be a keeper, and despite the slashed fee I cant imagine him being overly busy. Accordingly he may be more likely to succeed if she isn't the most fertile. I haven't looked at fertility figures for either though. I don't know their temperament but I do remember seeing Intikhab...

Footsteps off spring flighty might be the best one word description.

The two times I've been to Derrinstown they've been willing to do a deal on the fee. Maybe there might be a room for negotiation on the €15,000 that Tamayuz is advertised at.

Whats the current opinion on Excelebration? His 3rd dam - Sarah Siddons is my mares 4th dam.

Henrythenavigator is also starting to catch my eye now too!

Whatever about Tamayuz, you can forget about Henrythenavigator.
Henry started out at  $65,000 and he is now down to €15,000. There is a reason for the big discount.
On the other hand Big Bad Bob started off covering mares for nothing and he now commands a fee of €9,000. Don't waste your money on a dud.

Any chance Henry might be redeemed by his first European crop next year? Might he click better with European mares?

If it stops raining and racecourses keep their hosepipes wound in maybe.

On paper would have Excelebration between Tagula and Ravens Pass so certainly worthy of consideration if you're not worried about book sizes impacting on fertility.

What about Rock Of Gibraltar?

Looks outstanding value at €12,500?

It's all a matter of opinions this game isn't it, I'd say most would feel ROG has been disappointing  as a sire, including at that price

Raven's Pass

With your strong classy offspring, you will be able to dream of landing group races from 8f-12f while secretly plotting that gamble for a novices handicap hurdle around Plumpton when you unleash it into the National Hunt sphere


good luck

Hi 1972, I think you have received very good advice from proxygene. You are overbreeding the mare if you are considering spending up to 20k- to be blunt she is not worth it. As a rule of thumb your mare should be worth 4 times the stud fee and though she might be the apple of your eye but she wouldn't fetch anything like a fraction of 80k at auction. That said she was sound enough to run 41 times and she did win three times so I can see why you fancy breeding from her. From a price/pedigree point of view I think that Elusive Pimpernel is a suitable match at only €1000 and you can put aside the 19k spared on stallion fees to cover training fees !

I'd be looking at Captain Rio (£6k) or Dick Turpin (£4k) myself.
Captian Rio stamps a fine horse and have had 3 go through my/our yard and all are straightforward to break,Train and have a fine temperament although one was a box walker but given some company he developed no other vices.
Know a few who have invested in Dick Turpins for this season and all I am hearing is good things about them regarding all the above mentioned and ability-wise they are all working very well.
If you could post your mares page I could send the details on to a few better judges than myself who run studs who may offer a better fit for your needs.
Good luck with your venture.