Bloodstock & Breeding

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13 Sep 14 09:54
Date Joined: 15 Jun 01
| Topic/replies: 22,030 | Blogger: sageform's blog
Although Snow Sky has been my strong fancy since he won at Goodwood, a strict analysis of pedigrees does not put him top of the list. Forever Now by Galileo who has such a great record in staying classic races out of a Darshaan mare would be my ideal Leger pedigree followed by Windshear by Hurricane Run out of a Hernando mare-2 sires that get stayers. Romsdal by Halling out of a Singspiel mare also makes appeal.
Kings Fete and Kingston Hill have the weakest staying pedigrees imo.
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Report sageform September 13, 2014 7:14 PM BST
So much for pedigrees. Mastercraftsman not an obvious St Leger sire and The Grey Gatsby shows that 10 furlongs is more likely to be the optimum for his stock. Romsdal ran a really brave race against a superior rival.
Report kincsem September 15, 2014 5:52 PM BST
At the risk of afflicting death by boredom on my readers ...
I am interested in the Equinome categorisations of horses into C.C (sprinter); C.T (miler/middle distance); T.T (stayer).
Famously Jim Bolger said Dawn Approach was tested a C.C (sprinter), and then he flopped in the 12f Derby.

My reading of Kingston Hill
Sire Mastercraftsman is a C.T; his sire Danehill Dancer a C.C, his dam Starlight Dreams ?.? (?.?=I don't know)
Dam Audacieuse is a C.T; her sire Rainbow Quest a T.T; her dam Sarah Georgina a C.C.
So Kingston Hill could be a C.C (25% chance); a C.T (50% chance); or a T.T (25%) chance.
I think he luckily inherited a "T" from each parent and is a T.T stayer.

Now it is obvious I have not had any of these horses tested by Equinome, but you can guess.
Danehill Dancer ran 11 times, winning over 6f and 7f.  9th of 10 in his one 8f run.  He was a sprinter and therefore C.C.
Rainbow Quest won three Group races, all at 12f (Great Voltigeur, Coronation Cup, Arc de Triomphe).  A T.T or C.T, but as he never sired a sprinter he didn't possess a C, so is a T.T.
Sarah Georgina was a C.C. She ran four times: 1x5f; 2x6f; 1x7f.  Her one win was at 6f.
So Audacieuse had a T.T sire and a C.C dam so she must inherit one from each, so she is a C.T.  For confirmation if you look at her race record she ran 11 times, all at 8f to 11f.

I said on the forum Kingston Hill would stay in the St Leger.  I didn't have a bet in the race.
How did I know he was a T.T.  In the Derby 12f and the Eclipse 10f he wasn't stopping, just beaten for pace.
Report kincsem September 15, 2014 5:58 PM BST
I think the C.C, C.t, and T.T categorisations may be the simple guide to staying.  Many sprinters just about get 5f, while others can get 7f and 8f.
When Toronado (a C.C) went 10f in the International in 2013 (9/4 2nd fav) he finished 6th of 6.  Previously he had run 3x7f, 4x8f.  A fish out of water.
Report sageform September 15, 2014 8:57 PM BST
The Rainbow Quest blood is the key to KH stamina. He was a fast horse himself but gives plenty of stamina through his mares.
Report kincsem September 16, 2014 1:54 AM BST
Horses with Rainbow Quest as damsire that were Group race winning sprinters.

Astrophysical Jet:  19 races; 13x5f; 5x6f; 1x7f.  Her last 13 career races were over 5f
Footstepsinthesand:  3 races, 3 wins at 6f, 7f, 8f GF.
Glowing:  10 races, 2 wins at 7f, 8f.   Not great at any distance.
Nijoom Dubai:  9 races; 1 win at 6f.
Pedro The Great:  5 races; 4x6f, 1x7f.  2 wins at 6f.
Recondite:  10 races; 2x5f; 1x6f; 3x7f; 3x8f; 1x9f.  Wins 1x5f; 2x7f.
Samitar:  20 races; wins in Europe at 6f, 7f ,8f.  Wins in USA at 9f in fillies races.   
Spirit Quartz:  31 races; 1x8f; 6x6f; 24x5f.

Rainbow Quest was a middle to long distance horse.  If bred to a sprinter mare the offspring would probably be an 8f to 10f performer.  If that 8f/10f offspring was a filly and bred to a sprinter there was a good chance that the offspring could be a sprinter.  It is best to look at the racing record of each horse in the pedigree to get an idea of the possibilities.  With Rainbow Quest's as damsire his stamina might not appear in the foal

On Spirit Quartz has a dosage index of 1.15 which would indicate he would be suited by 12f.  He was suited by 5f.
Report kincsem September 16, 2014 3:38 AM BST
I thought I would see if there are many Group winning sprinters (5f to 5.5f) with damsires that won at 12f+

Name_______________Damsire (furlongs)

Almaty_____________Dancing Brave (12f)
Astrophysical Jet__Rainbow Quest (12f)
Baitha Alga________Fantastic Light (12f)
Borderlescott______Touching Wood (14f)
Dolled Up__________Law Society (12f)
Doree______________Graustark (??f)
Elletelle__________Niniski (15f)
Equiano____________Ela-Mana-Mou (12f)
Eveningperformance_Busted (12f)
Greenlander________Alleged (12f)
Gwenseb____________St Jovite (12f)
Imperial Beauty____Arctic Tern (10f)*
Irish Field________Hernando (12f)
Majestic Missile___Dancing Brave (12f)
New Girlfriend_____Dynaformer (??f)
Oasis Dream________Dancing Brave (12f)
Porlezza___________Matahawk (15f)
Porto Varas________Arctic Tern (10f)*
Restiadargent______Montjeu (12f)
Ringmoor Down______Law Society (12f)
Sorciere___________Hernando (12f)
Spirit Quartz______Rainbow Quest (12f)
Starlit Sands______Slip Anchor (12f)

Borderlescott's damsire Touching Wood won the English St Leger and the Irish St Leger.
I think this shows that it is the sire and dam that have the greatest influence.

The other side of the equation is - did any long distance sire ever sire a sprinter?
I found one in 1,792 races of less than 6 furlongs.
Vific, who won the 1977 Prix Robert Papin over 1100 metres (5.5f) was by a sire that won a long distance race.
His sire Rheffic won the Grand Prix de paris over 3100 metres in 1971, although his other big wins were 2000, 2100, 2400 metres.
Strangely there is a note on Wiki saying the 1977 Prix Robert Papin was at Evry, not at Maisons-Laffitte.

Occasionally sires like The Minstral, Caerleon, Grundy who have won at 12f sires a sprinter but a St Leger or Cup horse almost never does.
Report kincsem September 16, 2014 4:03 AM BST
Very strange.
I looked up Rheffic in the 1971 Timeform Annual.  He retired after winning the 3100 metres Grand Prix de Paris by a neck in heavy ground.
I looked up Vific, daughter of Rheffic, in the 1977 Timeform Annual.  She retired after winning the 1100 metres Prix Robert Papin.  Injured/dead I think.
Both trained by the same trainer.
Report kincsem September 16, 2014 2:19 PM BST
And that trainer trained the Epsom Derby winner Relko. Shocked

Relko's Derby win was overshadowed for some time because of the revelation by the Daily Express that he had failed a drugs test. The incident took place in the context of a series of investigations into the "doping" of horses in British races. It was not until October that the Jockey Club confirmed Relko as the winner, stating that the substances detected could not be positively identified and therefore could not be proved to have affected the result. At the end of June, Relko was scheduled to run in the Irish Derby and made 11/8 favourite, but was withdrawn from the race minutes before the start, after appearing to be lame, leading to further suspicions of foul play.
In autumn, Relko returned to the racecourse to record an impressive win in the Prix Royal Oak on 15 September, easily defeating Sanctus, the winner of the Prix du Jockey Club and the Grand Prix de Paris. In the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe, Relko became highly agitated before the start and ran poorly, finishing sixth behind Exbury.
Report salmon spray September 17, 2014 3:21 PM BST
He also won the Coronation Cup as a 4-y-o.
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