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Prima Donna
08 May 12 06:49
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Date Joined: 29 Apr 09
| Topic/replies: 4,152 | Blogger: Prima Donna's blog
Lawman had a nice 2y'old maiden winner yesterday at the Curragh,one who does look like it has a future.Lawman standing for 15k down from his initial 25k fee is looking a decent prospect and does seem to be commercial do breeders rate him or not and have any of you used him?
And his stud companion Lope De Vega standing again for 15k looks a strong high class prospect being a duel classic winning son of Sharmardal.Like Lawman a good sort without having the quality of Lawman  he looks an ideal sire for all the Danehill/Sadlers Wells mares have any of you used him and if so do you like the foals?I've got a couple of his and I am happy with what we've got good sorts with bone.
Any views on these two young stallions?
Pause Switch to Standard View Lope De Vega/Lawman.
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Report potentialmillionaire May 8, 2012 10:23 AM BST
Later, peeps!
Report potentialmillionaire May 8, 2012 11:10 AM BST
I have not used either.

I haven't seen Lope de Vega but I looked at Lawman in December. He is an impressive big horse perhaps representing best what can happen - but doesn't often - when you put speed onto a slightly more old fashioned stouter pedigree.
But there in lies the rub. Just what can we expect from a staying son of Invincible Spirit? I think we are seeing it now and he looks very much like he is going to slot into no mans land, good sire but not sharp enough to suit the masses and not quite good enough to tempt the super rich. I think Azamour looks to be his nearest comparable and I suspect he won't be quite that good. I think if we whip off the Rose Tinteds ( and I really only recommend that occasionally, else we'd all give up the game Cry ) then decent mares at 25k a pop mean it's all happening a bit slowly.

Lope de Vega for me is best left alone after year 1 and 2. How good actually was he? He is at the slightly elevated fee level that Ballylinch seem to need to charge and he is from an indifferent pedigree. Shamardal is a smashing sire but I don't think he is one we will come to associate with brilliance which worries me. However lots of 'solid' stallions do prove consistent in what they pass down and Lope de Vega could be just fine. Where though does he fall? Lots of smart classy 2yo's? Lots of late maturing but proper Group performers?
Straight down the middle I guess. Mmm?
Report yer ma May 8, 2012 12:45 PM BST
I like Lawman physically and family wise.  My issues (which have stopped me using at 15k - no great deals being offered my way) are; dual classic winner or not the level of form wasnt top notch, certainly case to make that the other ones grp1s were stronger. Two I dont know what I'd get and certainly not guaranteed precocious.  Three the yearlings didnt sell that strongly last year nor the foals. Four, he needs a proper 3yo and thats not obvious (Most Improved may or may not be the answer)

I wouldnt like my chances of making money on Lope de Vega.
Report proxygene May 8, 2012 3:04 PM BST
Lurking...
Report Prima Donna May 8, 2012 9:55 PM BST
Good points above,I agree at his initial fee of 25k it is all looking a bit slow but he hasn't done so bad and his winner yesterday does look exciting.I just wonder with Lawman his sire Invincible Spirit badly needs a classic horse to keep his momentum up the same could be said for the other Green Desert horse Oasis Dream.But he does put a lot of quality on his stock whilst keeping the class without getting colts looking like fillies.like you say Pot M he could quickly be in no mans land. Lets hope Most Improved goes on, and that he can fulfil his promise. Then Lawman needs to have it backed up by getting the bids at the sales.

Lope De Vega I think is a likeable type. As a dual classic winning son of a popular and useful sire I don't think his fee is that over the top, (even though on the whole Ballylinch seemed to have gone to the same school of fee setting as Cheveley Park). He has enough of him to hope that he could get a nice type of foal, and does not rule out a 2yo type imo. It will be interesting to see some of his foals and I will be keeping a keen eye on the prices.
Report proxygene May 8, 2012 11:05 PM BST
Second of our only 2 mares bought in foal to Lawman, 3rd foal. Late foal and looks like a late foal but reasonable frame. No interest at the sales due to full brother first foal. He looked a close coupled 2 yo sprinter type, sold well at breeze ups but no aptitude for 2 yo sprinting. Looks like can throw differently  to same mare. (who had a lightish filly by Azamour last night so maybe she has had a fair influence)

Will risk a one shot to HRE if all ok.
Report potentialmillionaire May 9, 2012 11:12 AM BST
proxygene I am fascinated to hear your sweeping - 'due to full brother 1st foal'.

Forgive me if you are actually very good at sucking eggs, Granny, but if you turn up at the sales with a nice foal there is usually a buyer out there. Was there really nothing else that may have held your foal back? A filly usually does it mind!

And whilst we are on the subject of patronising advice you didn't ask for, as the mare is capable of 'lateish types' and 'light framed' ones too, she would be my idea of a mare who needs early foalings to give them the maximum time to mature. Sometimes leaving them for a year gives their record time to improve as well which helps place their next mating - or ofcourse gives us time to see that it's going pear shaped and a swift movement out is called for!

Apologies ofcourse if I am out of turn!
Report Prima Donna May 9, 2012 1:28 PM BST
proxygene,I think that's good advice from Pot M,and personally I think its very brave using HRE now as though he's just had a guineas winner I'd be looking to the future and wondering where he might be in 2 years time as by then he could be sunning himself in some far eastern shores rather like the champion Hawk WingLaugh
I guess you are here and not England so have you given any thought to Bushranger?He gets great looking stock and like HRE was a top flight 2 y'old and with so many mares he should stand a good chance of figuring in the first season sire table,that helps if you are trying to sell anything.I'd ask myself if HRE really stamps his stock esp' with a mare who as you point out gets a lighter type.
Again like Pot M has said above not trying to sound patronising just offering you another view (take note of that last bit BoxFresh)Plain
Report proxygene May 9, 2012 2:04 PM BST
All advice gratefully received. The other mare had a colt by Bushranger who might subsidise the situation.

3 eggs in one basket was always a risk and not wanting to be a mare dealer I am still looking for runner that might break even than a beauty that cant run. Yes it might be a relief if next sire is spread too thinly to stop her, but I took a view that he might be a better middle distance sire than a 2yo one which probably suits her better. Obviously if the well runs dry before than I wont get to find out.
Report potentialmillionaire May 9, 2012 2:49 PM BST
The Beautys are more likely to run than the uglys Proxy!

Try for a compromise between the sales horse and the racehorse as however hard we try Madam Luck will always have the biggest say! I very rarely go for a 10/10 commercial mating as if it just doesn't suit the mare then it probably won't look like a racehorse - to the buyers either.
Ofcourse a 1/10 commercial won't break even let alone make you money - try and make the war chest last as long as possible!
Report proxygene May 9, 2012 3:44 PM BST
I'm hoping that if I can be disciplined and with purpose I wont have to get ruthless or get out; there is a masterplan it just needs to be adaptable to most circumstances.
Report push May 10, 2012 5:10 PM BST
Move To Strike , by Lawman was a very impressive 2yo winner for Jim Bolger .
Report RipVanWinkle May 12, 2012 12:10 AM BST
LDV is plain but should have tough strong sorts and could be worth a chance. I like his sire a lot but I also like Kendor. Lawman needs a big winner he's way overpriced to me. I'd have LDV ahead of him regardless of the heads cause they have the limbs
Report proxygene May 23, 2012 11:18 PM BST
Ah well, sense, or more precisely running out of time prevailed, so any divided loyalties in the Irish 1000 now go to Janey Muddles; is she a NR yet? and what of Most Improved?
Report potentialmillionaire June 23, 2012 2:11 PM BST
Well Lawman had one hell of an update on Tuesday. With the St James's Palace perhaps being the most important race of the week Ballylinch must feel a little more relaxed.
It's a fabulous race to win and indeed I am sure all connections of Most Improved must have enjoyed that win tremendously. Well done to them all.
Report Prima Donna June 24, 2012 8:53 PM BST
I'm sure his breeders were more than delighted with that Pot M.Any GR1 is a massive achievement for any breeder but I'm sure his connections felt its almost extra special breeding a Royal Ascot one!and like you say it gives the stallion a huge help at the right time in his career.Happy
Report potentialmillionaire November 10, 2012 2:19 PM GMT
So then. he finished with a flourish and his stock rather like his fathers are quite partial to a bit of cut.

A 5k increase in fee doesn't seem unreasonable but I am a little worried that he is heading to a workmanlike career that doesn't set hearts racing. If so, that's quite a lot of money for a horse that will have spells out of fashion.

Am I underselling him? He is a lovely looking big beast that I would like to use, but not at that price.
Report proxygene November 10, 2012 5:47 PM GMT
Our yearling sold for 5.5k weak knees but a good walker; just a late developer hopefully for somebody else and the mare. Her foal looks a bit racier but is a filly and by Azamour...
Report yer ma November 10, 2012 10:31 PM GMT
To me that fee increase is simpy poor stallion management - I like Lawman and a deal around 10-12k would interest me with a good mare which is what they need to keep momentum going.  Instead they put it beyond my valuation which is NOT based on a few good recent wins but based on likely returns which show the stallion's median at 29k 2010, 23k 2011 and 20k 2012. Tamayuz (who I am less keen on) remains at 15k getting some nice horses and setting a 2012 median of 37k.   The numbers just dont stack up..but thats breeding for you.  The ridic covering numbers on another thread of course suggest that the actual fee paid by whoever the feck it is with all these mares in Ireland is much MUCH less.
Report truehoncho November 10, 2012 11:12 PM GMT
Its a good point about sales returns yer ma. I've said in another thread that i think Tamayuz is worth using becuase of his sales returns. I often wonder what commercial breeding really is. I think fashion can seriously cloud the judgement. Stallions at 20k really need to get you a 45k yearling to cover costs and make a real profit.

If you have a mare that you think can make a profit from a 20k stallion she will probably make more from a 8-10k one as far as I can see.
Report Prima Donna November 11, 2012 11:16 AM GMT
you are dead right truhoncho,I've many times made that very point,in short you are always better being at the top end of a stallions book than mid to lower.It's not always the case,but largely if your mares capable of getting a 40k yearling she's as likely to get one from an 8k stallion than a 28k stallion.If it was so easy getting a 40k yearling simply by using a 20k stallion we'd all be at it!
Report potentialmillionaire November 11, 2012 8:00 PM GMT
Interesting points. Proxy, let's hope that your Lawman does something on the track to bail himself out of the Inn of Disappointment!

I know we are all very interested in sales returns happening in the here and now as after all it's all we've got. However it's dangerous to judge a horse like Tamayuz who has started with some good signs as they are always likely to be showing a better return than a sire who is perhaps an 'old faithful'. The potential for a big commercial swing is never greater than with a young stallion and ofcourse history tells us which way the swing is likely to be going. (or is that just meCry) Ones to tread very carefully with I think.

On the other side of the posts, a yearling I bred, but didn't own, made plenty of dosh this year and I am not sure it could have made as much as it did if it had been by a cheaper stallion. The mare would have been a bit light by the stallions standard too!
Ofcourse I agree with the concept above on fee levels - but sometimes it's hard not to chase 'the dream'!!
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