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if he wins the Derby will they retire him?
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No.
Things go wrong though, but if he's well he'll race a full season. Horses in great form very rarely get shuffled off to stud usually it's just the result of something going wrong that prejudices their future.
Things go wrong though, but if he's well he'll race a full season. Horses in great form very rarely get shuffled off to stud usually it's just the result of something going wrong that prejudices their future.
Will he definitely stay, at Epsom (and Doncaster) ?
Surely an unlikely runner at Doncaster. So, yes (and hypothetical).
If the Derby is won then it is my belief that Donny will be on the agenda.
Coolmore will find a ton of PR to negate the 1m6 and they'll start with NijinskyII.
He won't want for support because we all know Montjeu and Galileo would have stayed that far and it didn't stop them and there was no Guineas on their Cv!
Coolmore will find a ton of PR to negate the 1m6 and they'll start with NijinskyII.
He won't want for support because we all know Montjeu and Galileo would have stayed that far and it didn't stop them and there was no Guineas on their Cv!
Camelot looked all class yesterday,I've said it for ages now if he won the guineas then Epsom will be the next stop.Then if he wins then you can be very sure he will be lining up at Doncaster for a tilt at the Triple Crown.Elbows McGuiness you may not know but his connections have for a long time wanted a colt good enough for a crack at the elusive Triple Crown.Camelot is just the colt they have been waiting for,they hoped for a go a few years ago with Hawk Wing only to be dashed at the first hurdle.Then two years ago St Nicholas Abbey offered them the chance BUT as I've said before they were so hungry for success they started to believe the doubters as to the ability of Montjeu being able to sire a GR1 miler so they made the mistake of 'over training'him.
Not this time I can tell you after the race Aiden O'Brien looked very relived indeed he knows what's wanted and the pressure was certainly on.....all the time he must of been thinking 'did he give him enough work'or has he given him too much and risk the same result of two years ago.But he had him spot on and now like his owners we can now look forward to a real chance this year of seeing history made,I for one hope he does go on and win the TC.That achievement sets the benchmark of greatness last seen with Nijinsky and don't worry about wondering if winning the St.Leger will in anyway de-value him as it this case it certainly won't.........it will set him above the rest including STS.Camelot is a seriously serious horse,its going to be fantastic following him this season!
Not this time I can tell you after the race Aiden O'Brien looked very relived indeed he knows what's wanted and the pressure was certainly on.....all the time he must of been thinking 'did he give him enough work'or has he given him too much and risk the same result of two years ago.But he had him spot on and now like his owners we can now look forward to a real chance this year of seeing history made,I for one hope he does go on and win the TC.That achievement sets the benchmark of greatness last seen with Nijinsky and don't worry about wondering if winning the St.Leger will in anyway de-value him as it this case it certainly won't.........it will set him above the rest including STS.Camelot is a seriously serious horse,its going to be fantastic following him this season!
He will not have Donny oh his agenda,because coolmore are more interested in winning The BC classic these days,So watch them ruin yet another horse by targeting this horrible race
if he wins the Derby he will go for the Triple Crown. A Triple Crown winner becomes immortal sure their greatest was Nijinsky the last Triple Crown winner, you also get plenty of decent fuel for the Coolmore PR machine.
When Hawk Wing was suppose to be invincible they were chirping away about the Triple Crown but because they got egg on their face then Im presuming that is why they are holding back on the bullish talk. Smith and Tabor as Magnier has even mentioned himself in interviews like to face the horses with the bigger "challenges" on the track so I cant see them backing away from this enroute to the Arc.
When Hawk Wing was suppose to be invincible they were chirping away about the Triple Crown but because they got egg on their face then Im presuming that is why they are holding back on the bullish talk. Smith and Tabor as Magnier has even mentioned himself in interviews like to face the horses with the bigger "challenges" on the track so I cant see them backing away from this enroute to the Arc.
I am as excited as everyone by Camelot. I am though very wary of hoping for a 3rd Timeform 140 rated horse in as many years.
Camelot needs to improve which you would expect him to do for more of a trip, but a goodly dose of stamina could get him a triple crown off 130 or so.
We wait with bated breath. Not least to see which aRseh0le is the first to suggest a match between Camelot, Frankel and Black Caviar!
Camelot needs to improve which you would expect him to do for more of a trip, but a goodly dose of stamina could get him a triple crown off 130 or so.
We wait with bated breath. Not least to see which aRseh0le is the first to suggest a match between Camelot, Frankel and Black Caviar!
Two notable things when veiwing Camelot pre and post race.Firstly whilst looking well it was very evident that he was carrying excess weight. Post race what a fantastic temperment especially for a montjeu.
I honestly think this was a prep run for the derby !
I honestly think this was a prep run for the derby !
Job surely is done with Camelot.
A 2000 Guineas Winner that is by Montjeu and is a big scopey brute. He has done enough already. 2 Group 1s in nearly as many starts. Sure they race him on, but the Guineas was the making of him. Pressure off now rest of the season.
They got the holy grail
. Sure they have last year Montjeu Derby Winner Pour Moi if it all goes pigs up!.
A 2000 Guineas Winner that is by Montjeu and is a big scopey brute. He has done enough already. 2 Group 1s in nearly as many starts. Sure they race him on, but the Guineas was the making of him. Pressure off now rest of the season.
They got the holy grail
. Sure they have last year Montjeu Derby Winner Pour Moi if it all goes pigs up!.
Fee 75k??
Close?? Too High?? Too low??
75k looks right for me
Close?? Too High?? Too low??
75k looks right for me
will they race him on at 4 ? or straight to stud like pour moi who is by same sire?
They've got an interesting conundrum on their hands.
My immediate thought is that he should go to stud an unbeaten triple crown winner at the end of this year.
However that rather will undermine Pour Moi who has been popular and is a nice prospect, but with his truncated career cannot warrant a mega fee.
Then ofcourse there is St Nicholas Abbey. If he were to retire next year then to me he is more compatible with Pour Moi because he is a different model and in my opinion isn't hugely desirable. He could stand at a workmanlike fee which would leave Pour Moi able to keep the better type of mare that might trade up to Camelot perhaps.
I suppose St Nick could go to France at a 10 Euro level next to Soldier of Fortune or they could try to win the Arc and try and slot him in as France's top priced stallion.
I genuinely don't have a clue what they'll do. Watching Magnier on the box after the Coronation Cup, I felt fairly confident his expression was saying, "What the hell are we going to do with this horse" !
My immediate thought is that he should go to stud an unbeaten triple crown winner at the end of this year.
However that rather will undermine Pour Moi who has been popular and is a nice prospect, but with his truncated career cannot warrant a mega fee.
Then ofcourse there is St Nicholas Abbey. If he were to retire next year then to me he is more compatible with Pour Moi because he is a different model and in my opinion isn't hugely desirable. He could stand at a workmanlike fee which would leave Pour Moi able to keep the better type of mare that might trade up to Camelot perhaps.
I suppose St Nick could go to France at a 10 Euro level next to Soldier of Fortune or they could try to win the Arc and try and slot him in as France's top priced stallion.
I genuinely don't have a clue what they'll do. Watching Magnier on the box after the Coronation Cup, I felt fairly confident his expression was saying, "What the hell are we going to do with this horse" !
Just a quick one here, seeking opinions?
Should Camelot complete the triple crown, is the Leger victory (normally a bit of a kiss of death for a potential stallion)negated by the Guineas/Derby double?
I am too young to remember Nijinsky's early stud career- I can only guess that he was in much demand during his first season? Mind you, given that he won the Dewhurst, Guineas and Derby hard on the steel, he was a truly exceptional colt (much more VISUALLY impresive than Camelot has been so far I would contend). Camelot, IMHO, is not in that class at this stage of his career (frankly, very few have ever been, so I'm not attempint to crab Camelot's career so far)
Now, if I was the owner (in my dreams),would I not think that(say), an Eclipse victory, followed by a King George/Arc double be better COMMERCIALLY, than a Leger and hence a triple crown.
Apologies if this seems like a daft question, as triple crown winners are as rare as hens teeth, but surely a few wins against his elders is a pre-requisite if he is going to stand at stud in the Galileo/Danehill/Sadlers Wells/Montjeu class of tip top stallion?
Should Camelot complete the triple crown, is the Leger victory (normally a bit of a kiss of death for a potential stallion)negated by the Guineas/Derby double?
I am too young to remember Nijinsky's early stud career- I can only guess that he was in much demand during his first season? Mind you, given that he won the Dewhurst, Guineas and Derby hard on the steel, he was a truly exceptional colt (much more VISUALLY impresive than Camelot has been so far I would contend). Camelot, IMHO, is not in that class at this stage of his career (frankly, very few have ever been, so I'm not attempint to crab Camelot's career so far)
Now, if I was the owner (in my dreams),would I not think that(say), an Eclipse victory, followed by a King George/Arc double be better COMMERCIALLY, than a Leger and hence a triple crown.
Apologies if this seems like a daft question, as triple crown winners are as rare as hens teeth, but surely a few wins against his elders is a pre-requisite if he is going to stand at stud in the Galileo/Danehill/Sadlers Wells/Montjeu class of tip top stallion?
Yes BBC,Winning the St.Leger in the scenario of Camelot completing the English Triple Crown will in this case only enhance his commercial appeal.People get to caught up today with the St.Leger sadly.Don't forget it is a classic and what's important to remember is Camelot had the speed to win the guineas.I've said before connections of Sea the Stars missed the boat in not going for the Triple Crown with him,talking yesterday to various people what was noticeable is the some seemed to think that the last horse who had completed the Guineas/Derby double was Nashwan.
however good STS was I think he will be relegated in time to 'just another good horse' whereas if Camelot does win the Triple Crown he will always be remembered as a great rather like Nijinsky no-one has forgot him,his triple crown win has set him above the others.
Today commercial breeding doesn't want stamina we are hell bent on early speed,any colt who wins say a GR race and then goes on to win the St.Leger is almost not wanted by flat breeders,but we are not going to hold the same view of a colt who wins the St.Leger after completing the Triple Crown.
As for St.Nicholas Abbey I can see him standing at Coolmore next season and I can also then see him running in the king George followed by the Irish Champion stakes,if he's successful then I'd think a race like the BC classic will come into play
.One things for sure its going to be a great year for racing,and don't forget Camelot can still contest the 'Arc after his run at Doncaster as that race is 3 weeks later.In doing so connections can contest all the top races without running their best colts together and re write the history books at the same time.what a year this could be, brilliant!
however good STS was I think he will be relegated in time to 'just another good horse' whereas if Camelot does win the Triple Crown he will always be remembered as a great rather like Nijinsky no-one has forgot him,his triple crown win has set him above the others.
Today commercial breeding doesn't want stamina we are hell bent on early speed,any colt who wins say a GR race and then goes on to win the St.Leger is almost not wanted by flat breeders,but we are not going to hold the same view of a colt who wins the St.Leger after completing the Triple Crown.
As for St.Nicholas Abbey I can see him standing at Coolmore next season and I can also then see him running in the king George followed by the Irish Champion stakes,if he's successful then I'd think a race like the BC classic will come into play
.One things for sure its going to be a great year for racing,and don't forget Camelot can still contest the 'Arc after his run at Doncaster as that race is 3 weeks later.In doing so connections can contest all the top races without running their best colts together and re write the history books at the same time.what a year this could be, brilliant!
Prima
Sea The Stars or Camelot for your mare(should he win the Leger, Irish Derby) close as guarnteed to win them
Be Interesting to hear your opinion
Sea The Stars or Camelot for your mare(should he win the Leger, Irish Derby) close as guarnteed to win them
Be Interesting to hear your opinion
ruby,I've used STS already and I'd use Camelot without hesitation,winning the St.Leger will not put me off one iota!And just as were talking about future stallions I'd also send one or two to St.Nicholas Abbey he is a very talented colt.He imo could of if handled right been every bit as good as Camelot.
Cheers Prima that is very interesting insight.
I wonder what they will do with St Nick. Also as they are very likely to go in heavy at the Sales the next few years for Montjeu Colts. Could we get a Montjeu pile up at Coolmore.
I thought St Nick would do the Cape Blanco route and retire in America especially after BC last year. I personally aim him there for the rest of the season.
I wonder what they will do with St Nick. Also as they are very likely to go in heavy at the Sales the next few years for Montjeu Colts. Could we get a Montjeu pile up at Coolmore.
I thought St Nick would do the Cape Blanco route and retire in America especially after BC last year. I personally aim him there for the rest of the season.
I think I have to agree with Prima Donna, although I think independently in the past too we have been singing from the same hymnn sheet on this one.
I can't count the times I have read in the past few months that the St Leger is totally beyond the pale when it comes to stallion selection. My own paper has been banging on about how Camelot wouldn't go to Donny endlessly and I've been screaming at them - it's a broadsheet, but why the hell they 'know' aboout the stallion market when 80% of the time they're only about betting.
The Leger in isolation is a bit of an anachronism. However the race like any other can only keep it's Group1 status if the standard of horses that win it are rated sufficiently highly so I'm happy to enjoy it as a Gp1 race while it qualifies.
However as part of the triple crown we aren't talking about isolation. Just history and incredible versatility. A classically bred Derby winner ain't plundering the Brockelsby / Donny sales market and no-one's mining that seam unless there is some patience involved by the breeder and potential purchaser.
And ofcourse no publicity is bad publicity as someone once said. Whilst that cannot be regarded as gospel, the fact is that 'Triple Crown Winner' has a very useful ring of promotional gold dust about it!
I can't count the times I have read in the past few months that the St Leger is totally beyond the pale when it comes to stallion selection. My own paper has been banging on about how Camelot wouldn't go to Donny endlessly and I've been screaming at them - it's a broadsheet, but why the hell they 'know' aboout the stallion market when 80% of the time they're only about betting.
The Leger in isolation is a bit of an anachronism. However the race like any other can only keep it's Group1 status if the standard of horses that win it are rated sufficiently highly so I'm happy to enjoy it as a Gp1 race while it qualifies.
However as part of the triple crown we aren't talking about isolation. Just history and incredible versatility. A classically bred Derby winner ain't plundering the Brockelsby / Donny sales market and no-one's mining that seam unless there is some patience involved by the breeder and potential purchaser.
And ofcourse no publicity is bad publicity as someone once said. Whilst that cannot be regarded as gospel, the fact is that 'Triple Crown Winner' has a very useful ring of promotional gold dust about it!
There MIGHT be a US triple crown winner this time next week. If there is,and I think there are stamina doubts,but the opposition doesn't look that good,then it probably increases the temptation to get a UK one.
Until he beats an older horse I cant have him on a par with Sea the Stars (commercially or as a racehorse). I think Sea the Stars gives Frankel a great race in the Juddmonte - replace him with Camelot and I cant see it. Clearly this will not happen despite it being best schedule wise. They could take on older horses in the Irish Champion Stakes and you never know maybe some of the best french or dare I say SYT may turn up. All in all the EASIER route would be the Triple Crown and it would be a marketing gift. It could all go pear shaped by waiting for the Ledger and it comes up a bog and he doesnt get home. St Nick looks like the King G / Arc horse
I don't think Coolmore will be dodging Frankel. It will be more Frankel dodging Camelot.
Hopefully they will meet at York but Coolmore will have there excuses ready if he is beat as it be his first run after his summer break. I love them to meet at Leapardstown but Frankel wont travel more than likely.
Hopefully they will meet at York but Coolmore will have there excuses ready if he is beat as it be his first run after his summer break. I love them to meet at Leapardstown but Frankel wont travel more than likely.
Personally I'd be very surprised if Camelot and Frankel ever meet,what's in it for either camp?I can tell you the plan since Camelot won the RP Trophy has been a tilt at the Triple Crown and now its on.
Its not a case of the easier option that has been a long held dream of his connections,they wont duck the chance they will embrace it. Bar injury St.Nicholas Abbey I think will run in the Irish Champion stakes and I'm sure he will be seen in the BC classic,and yes rubyisgodinthesaddle that's a good point about him later retiring to Ashford that makes perfect sense.
Its not a case of the easier option that has been a long held dream of his connections,they wont duck the chance they will embrace it. Bar injury St.Nicholas Abbey I think will run in the Irish Champion stakes and I'm sure he will be seen in the BC classic,and yes rubyisgodinthesaddle that's a good point about him later retiring to Ashford that makes perfect sense.
SNA the Champion Stakes? Cant see him winning a Grp1 at 10f unless its a very weak one. Why they'd run on dirt in the BC Classic I have no idea, mind you they've messed plenty up with the horse before. Homecoming Queen would be more of a 10f dirt horse.
Surely Camelot will go for the Arc after the St Leger. No need to go to America and I very much doubt they will risk him.
No offence to the British Champion Stakes but the way its positioned it really is like a second class race such as the Tatts Gold Cup.
No offence to the British Champion Stakes but the way its positioned it really is like a second class race such as the Tatts Gold Cup.
The Champion Stakes hasnt been a great race in the last decade but we are talking Irish Champion Stakes which was one of my fav race (the last two years its been poor). Galileo / Fantastic Light duel was terrific.
Yh I love him in the Irish but with the Leger the week after surely they wont have 2 races in 2 weeks.
Arc looks ripe this year for Camelot to win. Looks a poor enuf renewal.
Arc looks ripe this year for Camelot to win. Looks a poor enuf renewal.
Read on pedigreequery that Camelot's seventeenth(!) dam was the legendary Kincsem.
I'd always thought she was a he.
I'd always thought she was a he.
No One here have any doubts about Camelot getting the Extra distance in the Leger?? Does the bottom line in his pedigree give any doubts?
To my eye he won well but it didnt scream out to me that he wanted to go that much further, the 3rd was imo the second best horse in the race any only lost that because the Gosden animal forced Ryan to kick a little earlier than he wanted to.
To my eye he won well but it didnt scream out to me that he wanted to go that much further, the 3rd was imo the second best horse in the race any only lost that because the Gosden animal forced Ryan to kick a little earlier than he wanted to.
Nothings guaranteed but he didn't exactly look like he was in anyway stopping at the end of the Derby did he?I can't see much danger to him at Doncaster really that's not to say providing his young jockey doesn't go for a Dancing Brave sweep past the field style win.
I'm very much looking forward to the prospect of his Triple Crown bid and hope he wins,it will be fantastic!And a welcome boost to the St Leger,still a great race he is just the tonic Doncaster need.
I'm very much looking forward to the prospect of his Triple Crown bid and hope he wins,it will be fantastic!And a welcome boost to the St Leger,still a great race he is just the tonic Doncaster need.
Early days yet but id say that Model Pupil and Michelangelo look ideal types for the race, they are both entered in the King Ted so we'll find out a little more.
I just hope its not a 5 runner field at Donny
I just hope its not a 5 runner field at Donny
I think quite categorically he will be okay for Doncaster. I suspect that you need more stamina for the derby these days - undulations, top class field, full on pace - than with the Leger and with a significantly weaker field it could be won by a star at the end of his stamina.
I completely agree with that Pot M,so it looks like the £200 is coming your way.........for now anyway!
As long as I don't have to return it when we are opposed - and I suppose you 'didn't get where you are today' without charging significant interest - 
Nice to see Henry agrees with me that the Juddmonte is the best race for Camelots schedule and Rubyisgod says Coolmore will be dodging Frankel so I'll be looking forward to my Juddmonte Farms invite hugely! Or maybe they wont fancy it..
potentialmillionaire Joined: 17 Mar 10
Replies: 1649 08 Jun 12 13:59
I suppose you 'didn't get where you are today' without charging significant interest
I've told you I'm expensive..........but I can stretch to 200 quid I'm sure,or just about I think!
yer ma 08 Jun 12 15:19
Nice to see Henry agrees with me that the Juddmonte is the best race for Camelots schedule and Rubyisgod says Coolmore will be dodging Frankel
Since when has Sir Henry been advisor to Aidan O'Brien?Personally I doubt many would agree that the 'ideal' prep'race for the St Leger is the Juddmonte International but then I suppose some obviously think otherwise!
I think its more of the case Sir Henry knows people have said plenty of times he isn't trying him high enough BUT if he then says he would love to take on Camelot in the Juddmonte Int' it gives some the impression he is not protecting him and up for the challenge.......but he also knows there is almost no chance of that scenario happening.
Replies: 1649 08 Jun 12 13:59
I suppose you 'didn't get where you are today' without charging significant interest
I've told you I'm expensive..........but I can stretch to 200 quid I'm sure,or just about I think!
yer ma 08 Jun 12 15:19
Nice to see Henry agrees with me that the Juddmonte is the best race for Camelots schedule and Rubyisgod says Coolmore will be dodging Frankel
Since when has Sir Henry been advisor to Aidan O'Brien?Personally I doubt many would agree that the 'ideal' prep'race for the St Leger is the Juddmonte International but then I suppose some obviously think otherwise!
I think its more of the case Sir Henry knows people have said plenty of times he isn't trying him high enough BUT if he then says he would love to take on Camelot in the Juddmonte Int' it gives some the impression he is not protecting him and up for the challenge.......but he also knows there is almost no chance of that scenario happening.
DATE HORSE POSITION RACE CONDITIONS
8Jun12 Bogini 1st
8Jun12 Unex Annigoni 1st
8Jun12 Cuisine 1st
8Jun12 Mayo Lad 3rd
8Jun12 Lollina Paulina 1st
5Jun12 Enthrall 3rd
5Jun12 Marinus 2nd
5Jun12 Theresnoneedfordat 10th
4Jun12 Lady Of The House 2nd
3Jun12 Imperial Wave 11th
2Jun12 My Propeller 5th
2Jun12 Ghost Train 3rd
1Jun12 King Kurt 2nd
1Jun12 Deauville Prince 2nd
1Jun12 Silvas Romana 2nd
1Jun12 Forget Me Not Lane 1st
1Jun12 Unex El Greco 3rd
Going well of late
8Jun12 Bogini 1st
8Jun12 Unex Annigoni 1st
8Jun12 Cuisine 1st
8Jun12 Mayo Lad 3rd
8Jun12 Lollina Paulina 1st
5Jun12 Enthrall 3rd
5Jun12 Marinus 2nd
5Jun12 Theresnoneedfordat 10th
4Jun12 Lady Of The House 2nd
3Jun12 Imperial Wave 11th
2Jun12 My Propeller 5th
2Jun12 Ghost Train 3rd
1Jun12 King Kurt 2nd
1Jun12 Deauville Prince 2nd
1Jun12 Silvas Romana 2nd
1Jun12 Forget Me Not Lane 1st
1Jun12 Unex El Greco 3rd
Going well of late
Camelot and Frankel in the Champion Stakes ? Montjeu and D.Millenium were supposed to be the big match in their day , never happened as D.M got injured.
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