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26 Apr 12 21:00
Date Joined: 11 Dec 10
| Topic/replies: 152 | Blogger: truehoncho's blog
if this colt never won anothet race would you use him? what about Frankels brother?
I raised this on the DoM thread but have been ignored!!!

I'm curious to know how far their pedigree will take them.

And do you think they're any good?
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Report yer ma April 27, 2012 1:46 PM BST
Neill's spot on for me (other than this year I reckon the french races will be be anything but weak).  Black Sam Bellamy way better than Noble Mission ever likely to get and he barely keeps afloat.  Interesting one just about to run is Dubawi Gold - this boy could have been retired as a UK cheapie (remember 300 interested in 12k PV).  Only appears to be going down the way now.  Suppose its fair play to sporting (v. rich) owner
Report neill d April 27, 2012 1:55 PM BST
Mordin rates the 2 colts that ran in the Djebel very highly alright yer ma and there doesn't look to be much dpth here so I'd say you could be right
Report Black Sam Bellamy April 27, 2012 5:39 PM BST
Born To Sea; dismissed after two runs by the Betfair Bloodstock Forum. Absolutely Laughable.
Report potentialmillionaire April 27, 2012 8:31 PM BST
neil d please don't say you have a feeling a horse might disappoint, again.
And yer ma please don't agree with him.
You seem like perfectly decent chaps and I don't like the thought of you being 'Absolutely Laughable' Crazy

Truehoncho this seems like the silly hypothetical topic at which we excel on here!

If they both retire now then I think you have no choice but to go Born To Sea because of the stakes form and the precocity. He looks to me like his race record might be a bit hybridised like his pedigree but if he stays sharpish and we are therefore minded to believe the 'he could have been out in May' tale then he will end up with a commercial start at stud. He couldn't be much more different to Galileo though so I don't think we can expect anything similar!

Noble Mission really doesn't have a commercial profile and expectations of his career suggest that he is heading into late maturing stayer territory. Mmm. I am a little concerned that you could get plenty of temperament with this Galileo/Kind cocktail so I suggest you consider your mare carefully!
Report neill d April 27, 2012 8:59 PM BST
I know, he'll probably win it doing a half-speed now by 2 and a half lengths. He'll be more accessable if he flops though.
Report truehoncho April 27, 2012 9:00 PM BST
Just in from work, great responses. If BTS wins a group 3 race but flops in a G1 I think he will still get plenty of mares in his first year if priced right. There are not too many value stallions that win a listed race first time out at 2 and any sort of group race at 3 with his pedigree. He would be my pick of the 2

After watching NM win his maiden, I think he might just be a bit better than that and may yet suprise. the horse that beat him in his maiden is well thought of.

I definately agree about DG YerMa, should have retired him last year.
Report proxygene April 27, 2012 9:05 PM BST
Is it just me or does "could have had him out in june but for his sore shins" mean he wasn't actually ready?
Report Prima Donna April 27, 2012 9:39 PM BST
proxygene,Yes that has been my thoughts for a while,and as for Dubawi Gold each time he runs his appeal weakens connections have completely missed the boat with him,similar scenario happened with Captain Gerrard a couple of years ago.
I agree with Pot M's point about Born to Sea being very different to Galileo,that family seems to produce two types physically imo he's sure not of the Galileo variety,Black Sam Bellamy/All too Beautiful type I'd say.
Report yer ma April 28, 2012 3:01 PM BST
Apologies for taking a view on a horse BSM.  That said, its what I do, indeed pretty hard to bet or make business decisions if I dont.
Report Black Sam Bellamy April 28, 2012 4:58 PM BST
Are you not at least willing to allow the half-brother of two classic winners the opportunity to run as a 3YO before you take the view ?
Report Prima Donna April 28, 2012 11:45 PM BST
Black Sam Bellamy     Joined: 05 Jul 02
Replies: 180 28 Apr 12 16:58 
Are you not at least willing to allow the half-brother of two classic winners the opportunity to run as a 3YO before you take the view ?

But that isn't what the original question was,if you read the O P the question was framed in the terms of 'if they never won another race'and its to that that we have replied!

As for it being laughable that anyone has a view on his future racing success I don't agree. Why wouldn't people have thoughts as to the horse's potential level of form based on his 2yo runs? Is that not what ante-post betting is all about? If it just came down to pedigree's then this game would be easy. In actual fact all I said was that I didn't think he would win the Gns. And I don't. That does not mean I think the horse will be no good, but just because he is a half bro to 2 classic winners does not make me think he will be one himself.
Report potentialmillionaire April 29, 2012 11:33 AM BST
Article in todays Observer about John Oxx an the significance of a UK 'raid'.

I don't think you can underplay that fact. Plenty of easier options for Born To Sea than a debut next weekend.
Report Black Sam Bellamy April 29, 2012 12:18 PM BST
Prima, my comment was in reaction to Neil's suggestion that "Even if it goes wrong with BTS and he disapoints, which I've a feeling he will". I just don't understand what the basis for such an assessment is. He looks ideal for Rathbarry if you ask me. What do you think ?Whoops
Report Prima Donna April 29, 2012 9:31 PM BST
Black Sam,I guess neill d,was basing his view on the eagerly awaited performances this year of Born to Sea,with such royal breeding everyone in this industry will be watching him and hoping he can pull it off,I hope he can bag a GR1 it would be a boost for his sire.But its never easy when the world is watching he sure does have a lot to live up too,he will have to be a fantastic runner to rank anywhere close to his big brothers and the real chances of that are pretty slim but we will see.I think neill d's comments about disappointments are due to just that.
And yes I too could see an eventual retirement to Rathbarry or similar like you say just their type.
Report neill d April 30, 2012 8:18 PM BST
I think he probably has to go to the Guineas at Newmarket to make it known that they think he can live up to his pedigree on the track even if he isn't quite on the button yet fitness wise. I've a feeling the ground might come in his favour and I wouldn't be sure a strong run mile at a stiff track like the Curragh would be in his favour if the ground is softish. Ascot off of a bend would suit him best as I reckon he's a pretty fast horse, hopefully it isn't like the road. Presume France is out as it wouldn't be the place to be seen but granted a kind draw and with the gallop they generally go there, that would have been his best chance of a classic imo, also probably the weakest race. Cannot believe Surprised that Dabarsim has gone that route anyone?
Report neill d April 30, 2012 8:19 PM BST
*or even if they don't think he is quite good enough to win a Newmarket Guineas
Report yer ma May 5, 2012 4:34 PM BST
Hes run at 3, my view remains the same.  In fact I wouldnt crib him for that run - was never going to play to strengths.  Not sure Oxx would really have chosen to run with entirely free hand.  French form rock solid - I've heard Dragon P 'better' than Hermival so interesting weeks ahead.
Report truehoncho May 5, 2012 7:57 PM BST
and whaqt about NM? did he impress anyone?
Report sageform May 6, 2012 8:14 AM BST
Noble Mission certainly impressed me. He is a totally different character to Frankel but given time, could be a Group 1 horse. He is clearly still very green and backward, needs a hood to calm him presumably but despite a ride that might have confused many horses and got them beaten, he won easily in the end. By October, he could be a bit special. If he had been brought round his field from the 3 pole yesterday he might have won 4 lengths and that would be a good performance. No doubt the genius of Henry Cecil has a long term plan.
Report truehoncho May 6, 2012 10:06 AM BST
I liked him too. He runs very green and csn surely improve a good bit off that. I agree about the ride he was given, I think Cecil needs another jockey. His No1 isn't the greatest.
Report proxygene May 6, 2012 10:50 AM BST
If yesterdays race was NM's career target then it was a bad ride, otherwise he's learnt more than you could possibly expect from a 5 runner dawdle.
Report sageform May 6, 2012 1:31 PM BST
He learned how to win from a poor position but why not teach him how to dominate a race like his brother does? I am sure that Tom was doing what he had been told to.
Report potentialmillionaire May 6, 2012 1:44 PM BST
He isn't Frankel. No horse gets to wear that badge but Frankel so I don't think comparisons are remotely appropriate. Looks like a really nice horse in the making but dominating races is best left to the superstars I think sage.
Report sageform May 6, 2012 4:31 PM BST
You might be right potm but is it sensible to bury a big backward horse and then have to weave through a tight gap? Why not come round and let him use his stride from 3 out? Makes no sense to me but I am not Cecil or Queally.
Report potentialmillionaire May 6, 2012 6:10 PM BST
who knows sage what they had in mind. He certainly wouldn't look like a horse to be ridden for toe. But perhaps they will have the last laugh as The Derby will present plenty of traffic if you aren't blessed with amazing tactical speed, so a bit of weaving and scrimmaging could well have been the plan.
Report sageform May 6, 2012 7:30 PM BST
He will need to grow up an awful lot in a month to be a Derby horse. The Champion Stakes perhaps if Frankel does not go there. Or even the St Leger?
Report truehoncho May 6, 2012 7:47 PM BST
I don't know how they will campaign NM, however if he was mine he would only run further than 10f if I was confident he was G1 class and never over 16f. If he wins a G3/G2 over 8-10f he has a secong career ahead of him.
Report potentialmillionaire May 6, 2012 8:07 PM BST
I don't know H Cecil but under the undoubted charm I suspect that there is a pretty steely resolve. Throughout his career he seems to have been singleminded on his pursuit of what will bring out the maximum in his horses. My guess is that if it takes 1m6 for Noble Mission to win a Gp1 then that is the way he will go. I suspect that under achieving for the sake of a stud career isn't on his radar.
Report Prima Donna May 6, 2012 10:42 PM BST
Born to Sea looked a nice horse but one who looked the sort who will be better later on in the year,not entirely convinced he's a GR1 horse mind.Noble Mission looked just the sort I could see running in the St.Leger,didn't look good enough to me to be a serious Derby horse.
Report push May 7, 2012 9:47 AM BST
Talk of the St Leger, the horse who finished 3rd to Noble Mission, the Gosden trained Michelangelo, ( having his first run ) looked like he could be a possible St Leger horse to me.
Report neill d May 11, 2012 7:54 PM BST
I'm a bit surprised by that Prima as I thought early season would be his time and that then those with maybe the bit more scope would improve past him. He might have a bit more about him than I thought so. As I say, I don't think he is Group 1 class. I wonder would connections regret sending Urban Sea to Invincible Spirit, fantastic sire and all that he is, he wouldn't be one I'd immediately associate with the classic distances which is what I'd have thought they'd be aiming at. Although of course anyone would be delighted to get a runner of the calibre of BTS, I'd go a slightly different way as noone would ever expect IS to throw a Gallileo which would be the hope with a mare like Urban Sea I'd guess.
Report Prima Donna May 12, 2012 12:14 PM BST
Well neill d imo he doesn't look a early sort but I'd say he's not short of scope he has a lot of quality with good bone,his style of running to me also suggests he's going to be better later on as he's got a fair stride a bit like his brother's.
Now whilst I'd agree with your view about Invincible Spirit not being the most obvious stallion to get you a classic horse he has a very nice page a mix of speed and stamina similar in a way to Oasis Dream.I can see the thinking that putting him on a pedigree of such stamina as Urban Sea you could get a classic horse plus when he was conceived Invincible Spirit was looking serious.
At the moment I doubt his connections are disappointed as the season is still early enough and he most likely will come on for his Guineas run and who knows may yet get a GR1 win.Hindsight is a great attribute we are all wise with a dose of that.Its been well documented that connections were advised to send the great mare to Montjeu now with his untimely death I just wonder myself if they wished they had made that selection as its possible perhaps that Camelot would have a serious contender opposing him at Epsom and what a mouthwatering stallion prospect that would of been.
Report neill d May 12, 2012 2:34 PM BST
That is very informative Prima, the Montjeu type mating was what I was kind of getting at but then as you say there are quick horses like Oasis Dream that can get the likes of Midday. I doubt Cape Cross would have been the most obvious choice for her either and that turned out pretty well. I'm glad to hear he's a proper miler on looks anyway and no matter what happens this year he should slot in well as a stallion. Just on Oasis Dream, the prospect of hime being used with Coolmore mares can propel him on to the next level again I'd say.
Report Prima Donna May 12, 2012 9:20 PM BST
I don't think I'd of sent Urban Sea to Cape Cross but then again it wouldn't be me going down in history as the breeder of Sea the Stars and as you point out it certainly turned out pretty well to say the least.We can all only dream of the Montjeu mating,I have an idea breeders will for years speak of the potential merits that could of given the bloodstock world.
I've said it before but I have my doubts Sea the Stars will be overall much cop,I can see him getting some good runners but he's not one I'd have down as being truly commercial long term.If he is a success it will be down to his dam and not his sire as Cape Cross is poor as a sire of sires and he's had plenty of time to show us any ability in that department.
Oasis Dream matched with some Coolmore mares could be just what he needs now as like invincible Spirit he needs to up the anti otherwise you take the view he's looking a touch expensive.With him I feel he gets two sorts either fast 2 y'old types(who don't train on)that are on the small side but saying that he is a smallish stallion and his family are noted for being small but that doesn't them running or later maturing sorts who want a bit of a trip.I'm going to keep an eye on Powers next run as I have wondered if he has trained on,his next outing should tell us more.
Report Dr Gonzo May 13, 2012 7:18 PM BST
On the subject if Oasis Dream, I noticed (afraid i'm nowhere near as up to date as you fellas!) that Kind's 2yo this year is by him. Will be interested to see the outcome of that.

To the usual suspects - very interesting thread here as always, very much enjoy reading your views!
Report potentialmillionaire May 13, 2012 8:07 PM BST
Well Doc. Very fast mare, even faster sire and 3x3 to Danzig.

I've not got a clue which way the 2yo will go though. Totally fascinating!

Sea The Stars is a 1/2 brother to a useful sire - I forget his name - and was more precocious and needed less of a trip but then again they have the physique that is more appropriate to each others aptitude really.

It'll never cease it's endless fascination this game, will it!!
Report Dr Gonzo May 13, 2012 10:15 PM BST
It'll never cease it's endless fascination this game, will it!!

You can say that again!

Will certainly be interesting to see what HRAC gets out of this one, as you say. I see the last couple of years she's been back to that 1/2 brother of Sea The Stars you mentioned earlier Wink
Report Johnny_Mustang July 1, 2012 10:33 AM BST
Am getting a bit confused by this horse now. I thought 6-8 furlongs would be his maximum and he runs a good second in bottomless ground in Irish Derby.
Report rubyisgodinthesaddle July 1, 2012 2:34 PM BST
My thinking is Oxx thought he was a miler when in fact he is a Derby Horse all along.
Report truehoncho July 1, 2012 3:51 PM BST
They sort if made excuses for Camelot after the race blaming the ground for him not winning further but I too thought BTS ran really well. We will see. He must be able to win a group over 10-12F dont you think?
Report dj876 July 1, 2012 4:33 PM BST
Yes Irish champion stakes,I would imagine especially with Camelot likely to go to Doncaster and Frankel to York.
Report neill d July 1, 2012 5:14 PM BST
Has Oxx messed up with this horse?
Report dj876 July 1, 2012 6:12 PM BST
It looks like it Neil d.It was very unlike Oxx to run him so quickly after Ascot especially in those conditions.At the start of the year some had serious doubts about him staying the guineas trip being by a group 1 winning sprinter-invincible spirit,as they were doubts about sea the stars seeing out derby trip by a group 1 miler-Cape cross).
It is yet another tribute to the magnificent arc winning dam -urban sea.The only mare ever to produce two epsom derby winners.

I am sure Oxx will give him a rest now and the irish champion looks the ideal race.SYT will be back in oz,Frankel in York,Camelot in Doncaster.
Report Prima Donna July 1, 2012 7:30 PM BST
When you are old as me dj876 you will remember mares like Windmill Girl dam of both Blakeney and Morston winners at Epsom in 1969 and 1973.
I too think Oxx got it wrong with Born to Sea,to focused on his sire's speed aspect forgetting the stamina laden dam's page(for commercial reasons).And for the record both his top class brothers would of both stayed and won the St Leger.He will surely meet St Nicholas Abbey in the Champion (Irish)he will be a tough horse to pass I'd say.
Report potentialmillionaire July 1, 2012 8:43 PM BST
Johnny M you strike me as being a man of sound mind most of the time.

But Urban Sea - the dam of a sprinter?
Report yer ma July 1, 2012 11:01 PM BST
I'd lay what you like on BTS winning the Irish Champion Stakes.  I think that was a below par run from Camelot in a field of Grp 2/3 horses.  If it wasnt a below par run then I'd be worried if its soft at Donny.
Report truehoncho July 2, 2012 8:33 AM BST
Yer Ma, if its soft at Donny, he won't run
Report Prima Donna July 2, 2012 12:54 PM BST
Personally it would need to be absolutely bottomless at Doncaster for Camelot not to run.The Triple Crown has been the plan since last year.Do you really think at the last hurdle they will scupper his chance of gaining racing immortality?I myself don't think his performance on the weekend was below par when we consider the fact he hated the ground his sheer class won the race.For me only exceptional horses do that one's like him.
Report potentialmillionaire July 2, 2012 2:34 PM BST
Doncaster is frequently described as the best ground any where. It's unlikely to end up like the Curragh at the weekend. I don't see circumstances conspiring to keep Camelot away.
Mind you, bottomless and he wins gong away looking like a cup horse, may not help the marketing men!
Report Prima Donna July 2, 2012 5:22 PM BST
Camelot will be at Doncaster bar injury regardless of the going,unless he sinks in up to his hocks.He should get ideal ground.It will bring back memory's of 1970.

Potentialmillionaire,I owe you an apology for being short with you the other day.Sorry,Its no excuse I know but I was not in the best of moods and BSB post did irritate me and your comment after I took as taking the pi$$.I know you didn't mean it the way I took it.You would think at my age I'd be less touchy,I'm still childish I know.
Report potentialmillionaire July 2, 2012 7:51 PM BST
I try to choose my words carefully on here at least Prima.

The fact is though as one is corresponding with folks where you can't see the whites of their eyes it's always going to be a bit bit of a lottery. In person, the people we care about we can address accordingly but like you say if I'm in a foul mood no-one on here is guaranteed to say the right thing!

So, I've long ceased being offended by you and I hope you are of like mind!!

I think by and large that we all do quite a good job on here of keeping it pleasant.

Mind you, there are some exceptions. I remember a certain 'champion' of a Coolmore 1st season sire a while ago. . . Well I wouldn't risk chipping my nailvarnishLaughon the keyboard to correspond with that one!

I trust your 'black dog' has been extinguished.
Report Prima Donna July 2, 2012 8:26 PM BST
Pot M I'm glad you accept my apology,and yes the Black dog has gone for now,even though my real dog is Yellow.Sometimes people drive me to drink I have a quick temper and that day I had had a very irate and long conversation with one of my key team members(nothing to do with the stud) it didn't go well and I'm well know for going on until they see my point........that person does now I might add!
I think your few lines above sum up this forum precisely I don't set out to upset people but its inevitable at times. I'm pleased you don't get offended by my at times forthright manner.
And as for that individual you refer to well lets hope he's been put back in his BOX! Are you underwater like us over there?
Report proxygene July 2, 2012 9:43 PM BST
Admittedly this forum is more sophisticated than the unofficial football club one and less single minded than the runners world one I visit, but I'm always fascinated to see how my elders (?maybe not) and betters find as much time to arse about on the internet as me.
Report potentialmillionaire July 2, 2012 10:11 PM BST
It's hopeless proxgene isn't it. Still we don't sit infront of the Soaps and I wouldn't know a computer game if it came up and bit me on the arse!

Prima, do you use imported hay? I'm just watching my hay fields get older and flatter. My wise old farmer friend tells me there will be a window in the weather - but I'm just wondering if it'll be worth taking it. Rain? Does it do anything else? Cry
Report Prima Donna July 2, 2012 10:33 PM BST
Well tell your old farmer friend to open the window quick and lets have some sunshine for once at least this year.The weather is unbelievable here,if it goes on much longer I'm thinking of growing rice as the fields are like a bloody paddy field!All the yearlings look miserable I have a colt who has not really done as well as I'd hoped he would he needs the sun on his back.........fat chance this year.He's one I bought last year and promptly sunk like a stone just after.He's so far back from the others I didn't manage to get him into the sale I wanted to as he was poor when he was assessed by the sales company,he has picked up now but I think with him he needs to do and with this weather on him all the time its going to be very hard indeed.Yes I do import some hay but as I have a farm as well I do like to make it as well,but as it is only my cattle will be eating the home grown stuff this year.
Report potentialmillionaire July 4, 2012 8:11 PM BST
Still raining. I can't even get on the lawn let alone get the tractor out.

Funnily enough I bumped in to a well known and liked yearling consignor the other day who too was lamenting the fact that his Doncaster yearligs are about to come in having never had any sunshine.

Maybe a later sales date for your tricky yearling Prima will give him the weather he needs. Mind you, may I suggest you consider buying your foals from a different source this year? (mentioning no names ofcourse. . .)
Report midas7 July 4, 2012 9:13 PM BST
I live near Edinburgh and can honestly this is the wettest most miserable me and some farming friends of mine can remember, my NH horses are being summered(ha ha) nr Newcastle and over in the south west of Scotland and I know my trainers are effing sick of bringing them in and back out poor horses dont know if they are coming or going. i know its not the best thing for them but we have had serious thunder and lightening storms and the poor horses have been freaking out!! Drive you to drink!!
Report Prima Donna July 4, 2012 9:14 PM BST
Here too,and it seems were in for moreCry even a chance of thunder on Friday.What a lovely summer its not!I know what your saying about yearlings having seen not a glimmer of sun this year,everything seems to be suffering without any sunshine even the flowers in the gardens look poor nothings thrived with the exception of the lawns they never seem to stop.
That colt who I mentioned above does have a later sales slot,its a pity as he's one who if he had gone the right way would of been a nice prospect.When I got him his coat looked like he'd been housed on the top of Ben Nevis it was the sort you'd expect to see on one of those hairy Yaks!He held onto his coat right up to last month and even now he still has a sort of winter coat!But now thankfully he's doing so I hope by the time he's gets to the sales he will at least show some potential and show some return.I don't really want to be bothered putting him into training.
I doubt you would know who bid for him last year as it wasn't who normally bids for us and he wont be sold under our banner this year either.Oh yes and as for buying from a different sourceWinkI did ask my man to take a look again this year,I said he had two colts one by a red hot sire the other by a sire that often comes up on here.I see that vendor last year was in wall boxes.I did glimpse the vendor he looked busy is all I'm saying!
Report potentialmillionaire July 4, 2012 9:47 PM BST
The weeds keep growing too Prima, so make sure you get out there with your hoe and your kneeling pad!
Report Prima Donna July 4, 2012 10:10 PM BST
They sure do keep growing.Yes its nice I'm told to do a spot of gardening I enjoy sitting outside sipping a glass of Pimms,that's how I enjoy the garden as for the kneeling pad and hoe I'll give that a miss as if I knelt down somehow I doubt I'd ever get up.
Report potentialmillionaire July 4, 2012 10:14 PM BST
Pimms weather it aint!!!!!!!!!

It better look up a bit for next Thursday and my jolly at Dalham Hall.
Report Prima Donna July 4, 2012 10:25 PM BST
Well alright then maybe I could sit outside wrapped in a blanket with a hot water bottle sipping a nice hot toddy with this weather that'd be more like it!Laugh
Report potentialmillionaire July 4, 2012 10:35 PM BST
Hang on a minute with a set up like that, the next thing you know, ther'll be wheels on that chair and Slick'll be getting ideas about giving that old chair a hefty old push down the garden steps and moving in a younger model Devil

Good night!
Report Prima Donna July 4, 2012 10:58 PM BST
Don't tempt her Pot M..........sometimes I don't think it would take much the chair a push I mean Goodnight and enjoy next weeks 'jolly'.Prima.
Report yer ma September 10, 2012 9:31 AM BST
A rather sorry end to a very un-Oxx like career.  And another retiree not to add to the list.
Report Johnny_Mustang September 10, 2012 12:51 PM BST
So where do we think he'll end up? Think we can rule Irish National out.
Report yer ma September 10, 2012 2:13 PM BST
Personally if I were connections (and loaded like them) I'd be earning some browny points for long term gain by offering it up to the Chinese as part of this new venture.  But it'll probably be likes of Ballylinch like PD suggested.
Report Johnny_Mustang September 10, 2012 4:46 PM BST
Good point Yer Ma. I know John Warren's standing a new horse for next year and Whitsbury believe they are close to a deal that will 'surprise everyone', but I don't think he'll be going to either. Personally I think Cheveley should throw their hat in the ring and discard that mud-loving flash in a pan Mayson.
Report potentialmillionaire September 10, 2012 4:47 PM BST
I thought that the I N S was the most likely option but perhaps there was more to the Tsuis moving from there that i don't know about. I'm only a country bumpkin always last to know so I bow to Johnny Mustang and his always intriguing inside track!

Yer ma if we keep not adding retirees to the list, are we to go another season without credible newcomers at the value end of the market?

I can't abide signing up to a stallion I don't have strong confidence in, but part of that confidence usually is bolstered by using 1st season sires that don't have a record to cause them to fall foul of fickle fashion.

To be pushed the way of a Mayson or a Born To Sea - just how horrible a prospect is that?

Power is going to be knocked of his feet in the rush for sure. But should he be?
Report potentialmillionaire September 10, 2012 4:50 PM BST
Crossed Post. 

You are a terrible tease J M!

Are Whitsbury about to launch Known Fact/Refuse to Bend mark 3?
Report Johnny_Mustang September 10, 2012 6:26 PM BST
Not teasing, PM. Moreover, I don't actually know who the new Whitsbury horse is (if indeed they get him). Staying on the Whitsbury theme, I understand that Charlie Oakshott's moving on 'to do his own thing'. Always had a lot of time for Charlie. On a separate note, I read somewhere last week that Steele Tango retires to stud next year. Honestly, what's the point? Some people really do need shooting.
Report potentialmillionaire September 10, 2012 8:16 PM BST
Interesting Whitsbury news. I have always been happy in my dealings with Charlie and I am reminded perhaps with Nigel Twiston Davies and the ascension of his son. Indeed Joseph O'brien too. I only hope that if the Harpers are keeping it in the family that they know what they are doing.

Any clues on the Warren/Highclere horse J M?
Report Posh Paddy September 11, 2012 1:24 PM BST
Could Whitsburys surprise be Famous Name?  That's fairly left field?
Report potentialmillionaire September 11, 2012 8:00 PM BST
I imagine Casper Netscher will turn up somewhere.
Report truehoncho September 12, 2012 12:52 PM BST
I think BTS has not been placed at all well. If he had been kept in his grade (listed/G3) company he would now be very sought after a a value stallion.
Report Wilycayote September 15, 2012 2:44 PM BST
If Born to Sea were to find a home in England, what fee would the team be prepared to use him at? For me he is a difficult one to price.
Report Posh Paddy September 15, 2012 4:08 PM BST
I think he has a similar profile to Fast Company, not as good but better bred and he stood for E5K so I'd say £4 - £5K.  Maybe I'm doing him a dis-service but with his half brother not having any runners yet it's difficult to ask for more.  There is also Kodiac / Invincible Spirit to look at too and Kodiac stood at E5K too.  So I'll nail my colours to the mast and say £4K.  Could be way out though.
Report boba September 15, 2012 4:38 PM BST
Should stand for 6-7k mainly because of his brothers but I am sure he will stand for 10k+.
Report potentialmillionaire September 15, 2012 4:44 PM BST
2nd in the Irish Derby, in the mud doesn't really help in the cheap, cheerful and speedy stakes does it.
Not particularly robust in mind or body either.
In his defence I suppose one could say that they felt he was good enough to make a proper stallion of, given the specialist and high flying sort of programme they mapped out.
I think if he steps out of the box looking a million dollars I might give him some thought but at the moment he is a steer clear I think.
Report Wilycayote September 15, 2012 8:12 PM BST
Posh Paddy, I dont disagree with your valuation as such, but how has BTS got a similar profile to Fast Company!?

Johnny Mustang, who do you think Highclere might be standing? would BTS be the way they're heading?
Report potentialmillionaire September 15, 2012 9:01 PM BST
I've given too much thought to the 'surprise everyone' deal Whitsbury aree supposedly cooking up. I know I need a life.
One thing that tickled me was Overdose. That would get tongues wagging!
But I wondered if Requinto might be a goer? I don't think Coolmore should stand his type as they are not really able to get serious with them and he would be a Whitsbury type.
Ofcourse there should be a spot for Libranno floating around too.
Report truehoncho September 15, 2012 10:13 PM BST
cant see BTS WORTH more than £5K.
Report Posh Paddy September 15, 2012 10:37 PM BST
Wily, what I meant is they were both nearly horses before injury curtailed their careers & both were decent 2yo's, BTS winning a listed race first time out.  Well it makes sense to me anywayCrazy.  Although too be fair I was scapping the barrel to find another similar sire.
Report Wilycayote September 17, 2012 3:56 PM BST
Heard from another source today that Highclere have got a new horse, but still dont know what it is.

Nothing seems obvious, bit of a head scratcher....
Report proxygene September 17, 2012 9:27 PM BST
Anyone know whats happened to Harbour Watch?
Report midas7 September 18, 2012 10:01 AM BST
Hi Proxy,

Thats a coincidence asking about Harbour Watch,just read in the RP Website,been retired through injury,real shame!!
Report Johnny_Mustang September 18, 2012 12:38 PM BST
Wouldn't Harbour Watch be going to Tweenhills?
Report Prima Donna November 13, 2012 3:44 PM GMT
Well 10k at Rathasker it is then. Thoughts?
Report Johnny_Mustang November 13, 2012 4:04 PM GMT
Much prefer him to most of the dross that's retired already for next year. I had 8K in mind, but compared to Caspar Netscher he's worth it......
Report Prima Donna November 13, 2012 4:12 PM GMT
I agree Johnny,I thought he'd be a 10k sire,and really I think like you he's worth it.Maurice will be looking forward to the phone calls coming in thick and fast,and good luck to him!
Report Johnny_Mustang November 13, 2012 4:18 PM GMT
Good for Maurice. I understand that the Tsuis still own him and are sending 10-15 mares of their own, a lot of which were covered by STS - so he won't fail for a lack of support in that regard.
Report Prima Donna November 13, 2012 4:30 PM GMT
Covering mares of the same quality as his half brother STS can only enhance his commercial appeal.It could be said he makes some of the other new sires look rather expensive.I wonder how many 10k stallions get mares way above the usual 10k class not many I think,I reckon he will be hot.
Report Johnny_Mustang November 13, 2012 4:37 PM GMT
Agree Prima. Can't remember if Maurice puts a cap on book size, but he should be popular enough.
Report potentialmillionaire November 13, 2012 5:59 PM GMT
Well I suppose when we talk about value for money it is always a case of relative to what else is out there.

My feeling that a horse stuffed over a mile and a half yet seeming to be happy on the soft ground and all the while sporting some natty headgear is not usually the sort of bar where I would be looking to order a pint!

If he is a great commercial looking specimen then I think there is mileage in him 1st season particularly though, after all his big brothers reign isn't going to end any time soon. A Sea the Stars flop might get people a little pissed though!

Incidently a package with Clodovil might not be a bad idea. He has some fertility issues I gather though. Does anyone know how difficult he is?
Report yer ma November 13, 2012 7:15 PM GMT
I presume this is one of those stallions who will guarantee me a return if I get a filly...?  Given he was such an unexceptional horse - 115 OR is 5-10 too high and amazingly none of the 7 he beat in his one 2yo win has won a race since, I wonder just how bad he would have had to be to NOT be considered commercial at a cheap 10k. 

I look forward to Juddmonte standing Noble Mission at 10k and Morpheus (Oasis DreamTongue Out and so on.
Report Prima Donna November 13, 2012 9:06 PM GMT
As I am sure you know Yer Ma, there are no guarantees in this game but if your mare truly warrants a 10k horse then I would feel that he would offer a significant chance of getting out with a filly. Horses like Harbour Watch who are not stars on the course and also lack pedigree are the quickest ones to bite you on the behind. The hype of an impressive win in the Richmond but not followed up with anything else can soon lose lustre 3 years down the line. His pedigree although black enough doesn't hold a huge amount of promise for him to be a decent sire. BTS though not as talented as HW was(on limited evidence),he was at least sound which surely is a point to his credit. But I think as a commercial prospect he will be hot. His sire is very fashionable and has shown he can get a useful sire son. And BTS half bro can hardly get any hotter or more desirable. Commercial success is nearly guaranteed if he can come up with sizeable athletic attractive sorts. Personally I am not so concerned about the impact of STS stud career in this instance, Galileo more than compensates and Invincible Spirit is much more attractive than Cape Cross who no-one could really think will be a sire of sires. As for Juddmonte, they persevered with Observatory for long enough and started CE at 10k so perhaps you are not too far off the mark Yer Ma with your predictions! I can see an OD half to Frankel being popular if he shows a modicum of ability. And I have heard rumours that Juddmonte are looking to perhaps have an outlying stallion in the not too distant future......that may have Whitsbury looking to their laurels as the monopoly on commercial flat studs in the south west of England.
Report yer ma November 13, 2012 9:21 PM GMT
I absolutely hear you PD regarding good racehorses becoming forgotten very quickly...Dream Ahead, Canford Cliffs, Paco Boy, let alone Zebedee, Lib Lad.  People can always latch on to a top pedigree I suppose.  I'm just struggling to get excited about any of the new recruits and feel I'll probably get similar money for a good foal regardless of the dad so cost is the principal driver.  I do hope you are not telling us Charlie O's getting a stallion at his new place?
Report truehoncho November 14, 2012 10:46 AM GMT
I'm not sure IS is a sire of sires just yet but I think the large book that BTS will get will give him a good start. I thought he may have been a bit cheaper but he may be alright to take a chance with as a 3rd season sire if they reduce his price suitably as he is likely to get plenty of 2yo winners.
Report Catch Me ifyoucan January 8, 2013 6:28 PM GMT
When can we expect to see the first 2yo runners for STS ?
Report The Gotchee September 10, 2014 9:23 PM BST
In light of Sea the Stars first crop performers, I suspect Born to Sea foals will do well this year. Any thoughts?
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