Can you still get a tune out of Piccolo ?

Maybe Dominion, but Throckmorton could do with getting a website and getting some of his plus points across.

Maybe seems like a good answer Dominion. At least he has a certain capability as a stallion, represents a useful outcross and can get a good looking horse which is always the best place to start.

He is 21 though and obviously pretty fraught with difficulty so be sure of your compatibility and the price!

Mare numbers slipping back now and fertility problems starting to emerge trading for as little as £500.One to use if you are going to race it yourself,very tough going commercially,not beyond the realms mind with the right mare.

Pluses and minuses it seems.But which stallion has a tick in every box ?At his competitve fee,he still looks attractive to me.Thanks for the responses.

If you like Piccolo have you given any thought to his son Winker Watson?He's not really going to tick all of those boxes but he was a very good sharp 2 y'old. But for just a little more one UK stallion who just about does tick all boxes is Monsieur Bond.

Piccolo has had a lot of winners in the last year but he is getting very long in the tooth now. He had 58 UK wins last year, his best total since 2005. He brought me my biggest ever pay day when he won the Kings Stand at 33/1 and the e/w double with Venture Capitalist at 50/1 (beaten about a neck in total when fourth in the Wokingham) was very nearly an even bigger jackpot.

I've got a Piccolo in training, and previously owned her full brother. Both of them are as tough as nails, and could probably run every day if you wanted.

I think Winker Watson has gone back into training with Mick Channon - PD.I know his fertility isn't wonderful,but thats reflected in the nomination fee.Added to which there are no value speed stallions around at the current time.We are not spoilt with choice.I had even toyed with going to France to use Myboycharlie.Thats how bad it is over here.Probably just a bizarre blip,which will correct itself next year.

dominion,That's an interesting view and considering going to France to use a cheap unproven sire,Though I could perhaps disagree with your opinion on the lack of 'speed' sires in the UK.

Captain Gerrard.
Showcasing.
Firebreak.(I know you liked him before)
Major Cadeaux.
Monsieur Bond.
Misu Bond.
Hellvelyn.
Kheleyf.

None of these startling perhaps but all at least on a par with My Boy Charlie,some are commercially better than others on the list.If you are thinking of going to France then have you considered Naaqoos like Showcasing and Captain Gerrard a son of Oasis Dream.I have seen a couple of really good foals by this sire.
If you are prepared to head over to France why not over here(Ireland)Speed sires in the price range of Piccolo,like these.

Bushranger.
Approve.
Zebedee.
Dandy Man.
Majestic Missile.
Alfred Nobel.
Baltic King.
Arcano.
Fast Company.
Le Cadre Noir.
Art Connoisseur. etc,etc
Just a few who spring to mind.What are your thoughts on these?

I remember reading that some of the work Naaqoos used to do at home was breathtaking, backed him a few times myself, he'd a lot of natural ability but never really learned how to race properly imo, better than he managed to show.

Is it just his colour and markings that skew me or is there actually a troubling amount of Ela Mana Mou in Naaqoos?

Could be Pot M,but then again it could also come from the great mare Bahamian,both her and Ela-Mana-Mou sit as far back as each other in Naaqoos's page.Ela-Mana-Mou has been a perfectly alright stallion but also one known for an influence of stamina,meanwhile Bahamian has been a great BM her family is known also for some stamina but more importantly for both speed and preciosity.

Given Naaqoos's massive stride and his pedigree I would certainly not be surprised to see him linking well with stamina mares. Question, ofcourse, is will he be the holy grail and give them a bit of speed or will he just say ' As a tribute to great grandad, I've no intention of getting in the way of your stamina honey!'

Well we wont know that for some time yet,and although its perfectly possible he may not get stock as precocious as himself,he equally might but as we often say on here the biggest help any stallion can have is the quality of his mares.
As both an owner breeder who also breeds for the commercial market the fact his 2nd dam is by Ela-Mana-Mou wouldn't put me off,I'd consider the fact his dam is a daughter of Machiavellian much more important.But there is no two ways about it he hasn't exactly got a startling family behind him.

I always like to try and surmise where a stallion, or mare for that matter, has inherited it's aptitude.
Like you Prima I don't really like to look as far back, as Ela Mana Mou in this case.
Happy enough with Machiavellian and perhaps the pedigree has a bit of Pivotal look to it in shape and indifference!

I'd guess with Naaqoos his preciosity has come from his sire Oasis Dream.Stallions who are successful as a rule come from good producing family's,Oasis Dream is from just one of those,his is a mix of stamina speed and preciosity imo this is why he either gets sharp sorts who don't train on or stock who get better with age and show their best over a further trip than himself.Personally I think with him the key ingredient to his success is his 2nd dam Bahamian and not as many seem to think his sire Green Desert.Her daughters are fantastic producers,any mare from her family would be a great asset to any stud.Naaqoos similarly cross in a way to Zenda as she was by Zamindar a son of Mr Prospector like Machiavellian,and a half sister to Oasis Dream Naaqoos's sire.

Is it just me or do others find a portrait of a stallion always differs slightly from ones perception?

I sometimes think I'm a hopeless judge and I know that sometimes I could do with studying horses longer than their handlers think is right and proper!

Anyway, brought to light again by a new photo of Showcasing on Whitsbury's site if you haven't all seen it yet.

Just had a look at the photo of him. Looks as though he's let down nicely. I didnt see him at the parade the other day, but he seems a good size for an Oasis Dream.

Just had a look myself,to me I'd say there's a good deal of Zafonic about him.His is a very high class precocious  Juddmonte family but is this family still moving forward or is it starting to look played out?

Can't see why anyone would use Piccolo personally. Who are we making a case for next ? Trade Fair...Indesatchel ?

I didn't know how much Zafonic was a part of Showcasing. I've gone back 2 and found myself at Warning!
Certainly some there I'm sure.

I think the page is pretty comatose. It's a long time since Bag of Tunes and I think only Juddmonte's expertise has produced what it has. It's up to us to try and find the best thing to do with Showcasing.
I don't worry too much about that though. I think a sire popping up could be from anywhere and isn't necessarily dependent on or a reflection of for that matter the 'current' status of a family.

Black Sam,
I can understand why a small breeder would perhaps want to use Piccolo, after all he's been a pretty decent sire over the years certainly far better than those two dregs you mention.I'm fairly sure dominion is an owner breeder so his choices are maybe not so commercially constrained as others.Even in his old age Piccolo is just as likely to get a good runner as he was 10 years ago.

Pot M, To my eyes he's every inch Zafonic,with his imo fairly stale page I'd sure hope he is a better sire than the one he looks almost like a son of!

Not every inch! Not his head, length, length of neck or quarters in my eyes. He can do commercial though thats for sure - provided those pasterns don't get any longer! I don't think I would like Captain Gerard as much and I don't like Arcano as much (who I have seen) Whitsbury are the best over here at bidding for a cheaper commercial type.

I can't really think who is his 'almost' father? Spill the beans!

Perhaps not every inch,but far more like Zafonic than Oasis Dream with maybe Warning's head.Of the young Oasis Dream stallions we are able to use the one who from what I can see is given the least credibility is also the one who imo is the most like his sire is Captain Gerrard.
Plenty seem to keep banging on about his lack of size but I wonder if the same critics have ever actually seen Oasis Dream as he is a smallish horse who doesn't really impress you physically.Is the fact Captain Gerrard stands at what's regarded as a somewhat less credible stud than Whitsbury Manor or Derrinstown colouring their judgement?
One thing I'm sure of if Captain Gerrard had gone to stud 12 months before he did and this is where his connections imo failed to capitalize on the wave of popularity surrounding Oasis Dream completely missing the boat I'm sure Captain Gerrard would be viewed more seriously.IME Oasis Dream doesn't stamp his stock some can be small this is a criticism levelled at Captain Gerrard I for one will be taking a keen interest when looking at the stock of his other sons then perhaps we can fairly judge the Captain!

Actually I have just been 'reminded' that the best looking son of Oasis Dream is Approve. Very similar to his sire, but a bit better looking!

I can believe that of Approve. With a slightly higher (allbeit erratic) profile than the other cheap and early types in recent seasons perhaps he will be the one.

I think that Captain Gerrard is of interest as at least he brings tough and sound to the mix. I think though that if he had gone to stud earlier he wouldn't have been right on the back of Oasis Dream hysteria which only really cranked the year after he went to stud. Perhaps you are right that some mega exposure when O.D. went ballistic was what he needed.

Bought as a foal by a good judge and sold well for a yearling certainly augers well.

Your final post Prima leaves me comforted that at least someone is keeping you on your toes

Has that someone been tripping round the yards in the dead of night much yet?

Yes your right someone does keep me on my toes!And as for the same person tripping round the yards at night,yes there has been some I have a nice colt by a new sire who's not a million miles from you..........and a nice filly by one of the Coolmore sires the one who you thought was like me big headed!!!

For me there is a large amount of luck involved in breeding and owning racehorses.You can help your luck,thats all(who mentioned luck money ?).Consequently,Piccolo,in his alloted group of value sprint stallions,represents a raffle ticket at a reduced price.Prima Donna,re Firebreak,I was a 'believer',but his results have not proved exciting,despite Bearstone doing their best to massage his figures.Piccolo at half the price,thats the value.

Good luck then Dominion with your Piccolo quest. Ton of luck involved for sure and at the 'value' end of the market it is without doubt the overriding factor!

I'm glad you're off to a good start Prima. If I guess right those two will stand you a bob or two so I'm pleased they look ok. Slicks' Dishy D R will be relieved too!

Well dominion if his results didn't prove exciting for you that's a shame,as when you consider that he only gets small books of moderate mares and stands for peanuts yet has still got a GR1 winning 2y'old colt who was unlucky 2nd in the St.James's Palace at Royal Ascot and will be running in the UK again this year.Not to mention his classy daughters Electric Feel and Caledonia Lady,what more did you expect him to do?What he doesn't do is get the physical sales type saying that mind one did make 70k last year.

Pot M,I think you are right about the stallions,and yes they are nice sorts,the Dishy D R is it me being old with my eyesight or is the one now sporting eyeliner?And yes I guess he's relieved,I can't help smiling when in the same company he reminds me of a rabbit in the cars headlights if he looks at me!

If you look at Firebreak results I also think he has done well.  I don't think he covered 100 mares in total in first 4 years yet alone any quality.  I'm slightly bais as Firebreak foal due within the month

PD

do you know if there are any Misu Bond 2yo's that might do well this year or any 3 yo improvers?

truehoncho,Good question,I haven't seen his connections lately so I don't know about any 2y'old's yet but I do know trainer Bryan Smart has one smart 3y'old who last season had shore shins that unfortunately held him back from running.He did look a very nice prospect who has ability so all being well he should run this term,connections do rate the horse.
I'm sure you know but you can get a free covering to Misu by sending Monsieur Bond a mare,and just something else to think about don't forget Misu Bond is a full bro' to Air Chief Marshal who stands in France at the Haras de la Cauviniere, ACM was the most popular stallion last year in France in terms of numbers of coverings.I did have a look at him recently he like his full brother is a great sort.

Pint Size's sister ;)

Pint Size's sister ;)

Monsieur Bond....yawn.

You must have mis-read Wily, truhoncho asked about MISU not Monsieur. But can I assume you are a fan of the chestnut horse?!

Almost forgot Mick Channon has one I bred bought by Gill Richardson.  Some nice photos on Mick's website

thanks PD (sorry a little belated)

i really like his picture on Norton Grove's website. Looking forward to seeing him in the flesh

my mare had a Firebreak colt last night :) going to see him weekend

I don't know Littleun2 What luck,is there something in the water where you live?As all you ever seem to get is COLTS!!!!Well done it's sure to be very racy and correct being by Firebreak.What did you decide to cover the mare with in the end?Firebreak has done very well really plenty seem to think Big Bad Bob is a sort of sire sensation as he's done well from very limited chances,but lets not forget Firebreak like Bob has had very limited chances as well but he's managed to get a GR1 winning 2 y'old colt who was very unlucky at Ascot in the St.James Palace along with some very good fillies.He has his biggest crop of about 65ish mares who I think are yearlings now so by the time you sell (yearling)he may-well have added a few more class winners to his fairly impressive tally.Lets hope he does then you could be laughing all the way to the bank!Good luck keep us updated as to the colts progress.

Prima I was minded the other day - and as there is some mention of Misu on this thread - that you had a nice Misu Bond filly in your organisation that you were very keen on but had been forbidden from buying/retaining!

Did you do as you were told and let the filly go or have you stayed involved - or maybe just informed - as to how she is going on?

Pot'M, I did do as I was told (for a change!)sadly as she really was a super filly. But she was bred by my daughter and her Husband and they wanted her to stand on her own merits in the sale ring. So I kept my bidding hand to myself! She sold well,stays in the UK and is now in training at West Ilsley. All reports so far are that she is straightforward,early and should be out in April time. As she was so nice and so eyecatching she was the first of that trainer's bunch of yearlings to find an owner. Mind you, now she has made her value if she goes through the ring again I needn't be so disciplined! This is after she has won the Queen Mary of course, I have a small side bet about that.....if she does win,the first person I will send a bottle of champagne to will be Paul Cole who was underbidder. I told him she would be a Royal Ascot filly

Theirs a video on the Mick Channon website of a Misu Bond 2 year old on the gallops. I assume that this is the same one.

For what it's worth he looks the best of the group galloping.

I'm a big fan of the trainer - if I'm right. He bought a tuppence ha'peny filly off friends of mine and turned her into a stakes winner and is a great shot at making you have to dig deep when you go to buy her out of training

Delighted (and relieved)to say mare has been tested in foal to Piccolo.Looking forward to an early foal next year now.

Well done dominion. There is nothing better than a mare scanned in foal. The 1st or only one of the season is particularly great. I had one today as well, but it meant dealing with some twins that were very fond of each other, so I'm not out of the woods yet.
If Piccolo is a bit tricky these days then it is certainly a good idea to send a maiden or barrener isn't it. His type are a nightmare mid to late season.

I have been lucky with getting colts.  The Firebreak is not from the same mare as that has the Misu Bond with Mick Channon she is due the end of the month.  I will try to get a picture posted the weekend.

Who are you sending her to this year Littleun2,have you decided?Good luck dominion that's a nice result and something to look forward to,even better as at his age his fertility is starting to decline.What ever happened to the Firebreak horse you had?
Oh dear Pot M twins....that must be as a result of that recent NMKT trip!

Prima, my nightmare NMKT trip was not responsible for shaking out multiple follicles - we had them before we left!
Rather disasterously today we appear to be left with none. Unfortunately my own vet is away and I have never had a failed twin pinching with him. I am prepared to accept I was overdue a failure though and won't blame his competent stand in.
The mare in question is a 1/2 sister to a 'triplet' so as she did ovulate 3 (of 4!) of follicles and is not back in season yet I suppose there is an outside chance we might find a 3rd on Sunday (fat chance)

I know the feeling only too well.We have potentially a very nice young mare from an outstanding family who went in-foal at the first asking in year one......."she's going to be easy"(kidding myself)I said at the time,only to find last year she went in-foal alright again at first asking only to find she had twins,squeezed the one next scan lost single pregnancy.This scenario went on for 2 more heats but at the 3rd time she managed to keep one.As a result time was going on a bit too long so here we are and the little darling isn't due until next month,so I will have to give her a go on the foal heat.Some mares are easy then some like her do everything the hard way,that mare I understand is everyone's favourite I'm told she's known as a total f**king bit*h I like to think she's a tough as nails my staff mind seemingly don't hold the same viewgood luck for Sunday!

Its been a good week for the mare just found out her first foal is entered to run next week.  This is a miracle in itself as was on deaths door numerous times as a young horse after been born early.

Well that's good news Prima, I might have 2 more oestrous periods before I get a result

The mare would be poor odds to get the job done should she get in foal anyway, so I could do with her at least keeping it cheap to start with. It's another of the wonderful conundrums that make this game so difficult to predict me isn't it.

It's what keeps me so damn tentative when shopping for mares and it's what in my opinion makes a nice potential broodmare about the most expensive item of bloodstock to fall in love with. Can she compile a career of fertility, good motherhood and beautiful foals that then can run a bit? Not good odds in my opinion and certainly not as good a shot as the price tags so often suggests.

Littleun2 I'm pleased about your entry, at least the horse has shown enough to warrant the entry. Personally I would like a little more 'blissful ignorance' before having to find out the truth!!!

I'm extremely happy with my Firebreak colt.  Very healthy, good sized and alert with no visable issues.  Tried to upload picture but wouldnt work.  One on my website if anyone interested.  I've decided to go to Arabian Gleam, seen a nice colt by my mares mother.  my budget is tight this year.

At last my mare delivered a filly this morning, very overdue.  End's the run of 5 straight colts but I'm happy.  Hopeing Mick Channon has a black type Misu Bond of mine so I can keep the filly.  Hoping to go see her tomorrow and also see my Firebreak colt.

Well done Littleun. An appropriate Easter present!

Well I have a nice picture of Firebreak Colt and a not so good one of my new filly (she was shy) but I'm struggling to upload.

Anyone know where you can view the French racing?  Had a nice little update today as my Fraam mares sister had the winning colt in the 2 year old conditions race at Maisons-Laffitte, hopefuly he will be a nice 2 year old.

France Galop site worth a look Littleun2.

Well whadya know, Piccolo wins the Yacowlef L. tonight.

I always think it's a fascinating race as it's for the unraced. I'm guessing someone on here might not have been surprised by the result? but I sure was!!

Well done to the team at Throckmorton and their clients!

A good example of not needing to use pricey stallions,even on black type mares. A policy I am always trumpeting.Cheaper does not always = lesser when it comes to breeding.

Not only has the mating produced a good sales price,(and a good % profit/nomination fee) but a black type winner into the bargain. Onwards and upwards with that mares sales now! I don't think the breeders could be accused of 'downgrading' by using Piccolo?!

A win is a win at the end of the day. Warrant Officer wins seller at Great Yarmouth.  That's my 4 individual winner in 6 years and never paid more than £1,500 for stallion fee.

I noticed your winner Littleun2. Well done, I am sure you are getting lots of things right and a 2yo winner is great. I see Dennis Coakley has had a 2yo filly winner by Misu Bond this year too. Hopefully her breeder will be getting similar pleasure to you aswell.

anyone seen a few Winker Watson offspring? Will M Channon be supporting his offispring to the same extent as Sixties Icon?

I've seen a couple of Winker Watson 's foals.........they are ok nothing outstanding and somehow I doubt MC will get behind him as much as Sixties Icon.W.W. is a short term cheap sire only but Sixties Icon has more scope as a long term stallion.
Well done littleun2 for getting another 2y'old winner and I too noticed Misu Bond's filly winning her maiden,she looks a nice sort and ripe for a nursery now.Denis Coakley does well with a small string.