Soviet Song

PM thanks for your reply-you obviously have an insight into Soviet Songs many issues.

Obviously with such an extremely valuable mare and breeding prospect, Elite are hoping that a trip over the Atlantic to some expert veterinary care can enable her to be more receptive to a successful covering.

You would hope that there are breeding affinities in this cross, but I had hoped for a more 'Hollywood' stallion.  Her only progeny to date is a 3 year old by Oasis Dream, and previously she has attempted to be mated with Montjeu and Galileo, as well as back to Oasis Dream.  I know these animals are not exactly cheap coverings, but the old adage of breeding the best to the best is not a bad starting point?

Thats interesting what you say PM, about the potential attitude of stallion masters to mare's who don't always get in foal.  Even more so considering that the mare had a very late and very speculative covering by Oasis Dream last year when there was 'not a cats chance in hell' of her conceiving, according to someone apparently close to the horses mouth.

I am surprised to hear this, because if your stallion doesn't get a mare like Soviet Song in foal, it is so easy to blame the mare ('not my boy guv, look at her stud record').  And if your boy does succeed, then more kudos to him, and if the progeny turns out to be any good, then it's potentially a nice rise in the fee for next year?  A win/win situation?

Elites breeding programme has punched well above it's weight (Soviet Song, Penzance, Eisteddfod, Border Patrol and Dandino are all HOME BRED Group/Graded winners) from only 10 mares.  They have also not been shy in using top and expensive stallions (Oasis Dream, Dansili, Galileo, Montjeu, Giants Causeway), so its even more surprising that our top mare is going to a stalion like Speightstown.  I suspect that there may be more to this than meets the eye, but I just can't help thinking that Sheikh Mo or The Coolmore gang wouldn't be sending their top mare(s) to a stallion like Speightstown?

I don't know quite how much sense I talk, as ever, BBC, but it is a fact that the top stallions are incredibly busy and they really do struggle to get all the mares covered, particularly if they hit a sub fertile blip. If I ran the stallion and was looking at 80 to 300k for a pregnancy, then if there was a queue Soviet Song would be at the far end of it, either in her heat period or sooner than that when bookings are being taken.  And at 12 yrs of age with only one unraced offspring Soviet Song is very unlikely to be a fee altering progenitor I fear.
As a mare owner I would be aware of that, so maybe keeping her in slightly less exhalted company enhances her prospects at still being taken seriously. If a stallion really suits, then his fee is sort of irrelevant.

Yes, of course PM, I failed to consider the no fee for a barren mare after covering.  Like you say, why would they bother with Soviet Song when they can have another top class mare with a 100% pregnancy rate, and an almost certain fee for their stallions services.

Absolutely JMC, I have seen Speightstowns figures, and he is a very good stallion.  I am aware that Lord Shanakill and Bapak Chinta are probably his best known sons over in the UK-I wasn't aware of the Coolmore connection so thanks for pointing that out.

However, based on previous experience of Elite's choice of stallions for their best mares, I was expecting a covering from the likes of Oasis Dream, Giants Causeway, Dansili, Dubawi and dare I say it even Galileo or Montjeu.  However, I had not thought out some of the points raised by PM concerning Soviet Songs lack of fertility and how that would impact on any potential stallion (multiple coverings when they are under pressure to get their mares covered anyway).

Many thanks gents for educating me on such matters.  I am an enthusiastic follower of breeding and bloodlines, but maybe not as worldly wise to the ins and outs of the game as some of you are.

JMC-no offence taken at all.  In fact I am grateful that you took the time to answer.

Thanks also for the URL.  Like I said earlier, someone at Elite knows far better about choosing stallions for our mares than I do (The Racing Manager has a big say in the mating plans I am told) and since his matings have produced quite a few group/listed horses, then I should really stop moaning and see what happens!

BSB-Soviet Song is already in the US so it's not so much effort in this case.

JMC - I had a look at that site, and my proposed cross with Dubawi only resulted in a D (shows what a breeding genius I am).  However, both Giant's Causeway and Shamardal (another stallion Elite have used) both gave A+ ratings.

RoyalAcademy - Well assuming she gets in foal, and it's a colt, and he wins 4 group ones......

Then he hopefully goes off to stud for about £10K a cover (Oct 1st terms?)and Elite get all the money to invest into the business (or invest at least some of it).

I presume you are wondering if we members get any of the stud fees, should we have a stallion.  Unfortunately not as far as Im aware.  We have not yet had one good enough to be a stallion, and we all live in hope that Soviet Songs 3 yo colt (Soviet Dream) is good enough to break our duck on the stallion front.

RA-Interesting viewpoint!

I am a member of many years standing with my loyalty bonus and share of the prizemoney, I pay just over £100 a year.

For that I get a hair in about 15-20 horses in training.  I get a weekly newsletter (48 weeks a year, good quality full colour, glossy paper, very professional production).  I also get info regarding runners and their winning chances.  Organised stable visits, hospitality events, the odd free DVD (they did rather a good one about Soviet Songs career just after she retired).

As far as bloodstock goes, they breed to race, and to .  They were offered £1M plus for Soviet Song at the end of her 2 yo career (easy money for a home bred), and then again before her 4yo season (the members were consulted and 80% wanted to keep her so she stayed and won 3 Group 1's that year!)  They also turned down £1M plus for Dandino.

I agree, if they wanted to sell all of the bloodstock, there would be sod all I could do about it.  and frankly, if Soviet Dream turns out to be the second coming, wins more G1's than Frankel, and goes off to stud for £100K a covering, then would I be upset that I didn't see a brass farthing of it?

No, because I don't think that my £100 a year entitles me to anything more than I already get, certainly not a share of the stud fees.

Interestingly RA, the business model is better served by the club having a 'superstr' horse in it's ranks.  When Soviet Song won the fillies mile and was joint winter favourite for the 1000 ****s, membership rose from about 12-18000, eveybody wanting to 'own' a piece of a potential superstar.

Currently, we have a horse in Dandino, who is short of top class on the flat.  In an attempt to make him a 'superstar', they first tried to make him into a Cup horse (breeding is Dansili, a miler, out of a 10F winner by Generous).  Strangely enough, he didnt stay 2M on the flat.  Someone then had the bright idea of turning him into a star hurdler (Dansili doesnt get many top hurdlers, especially those who dont stay and need fast ground).  fortuately, Dan had one look at hurdles (or one school over) and decided he didn't fancy it.  Sensible chap.  He was probably bemused how he even got to see a hurdle when he finished 7L behind an Arc winner, and 6L behing a Breeders Cup winner in races not run to suit him earlier in the year.

Personally, I think Dandino can win more group races on the flat-maybe not a G1 in this country, but maybe some more G2's and G3's, and possibly a German/Italian G1.  Doesn't seem all that bad to me, plenty of prize money to be won as well, but it probably won't make him the superstar that is needed for the business model.

As for the American jaunt, I am not a vet but I have some professional knowledge regarding the type of isues Soviet Song suffers from (medically)-the latest reports seem much more encouraging, which hopefully means we can get our Speightstown colt and those 4 G1's you talked about......

You are quite right that most of our mares are daughters of KALINKA (Soviet Song, Affinity, Kalinova and Sister Act) and FFESTINIOG (Oceans Apart) and they have been excellent foundation mares with pretty outstanding records.

I agree that the breeding programme needs greater diversity (we cant all have a HASILI in our broodmare band, can we!?)  We do have a purchased mare CHINA TEA (HIGH CHAPPARAL-MOLASSES) who is a full sister to the useful french colt MAGADAN-she has a yearling by HALLING and is in foal to DUKE OF MARMALADE.  She has a nice pedigree and hopefully could produce us a very nice middle distance horse.

We recently sold another bought filly SINFONIA (by SINDAR) from an Aga Khan family. Personally I was very disappointed that the filly was sold and not added to the breeding programme (not deemed to be good enough quality based on a single run as a 2 yo).  She was a horse that Sir Henry Cecil liked, but could not stand training.  I think she might have definately added a different dimension to the rather limited Elite gene pool.

The most exciting young mares we potentially have, however are AFFINITY (SADLERS WELLS-KALINKA) who has just produced a filly foal by MARJU (hence very closely related to Soviet Song).  And finally SISTER ACT, who is a full sister to Soviet Song, who produced a quality colt by OASIS DREAM (who unfortunately was lost on the gallops) and has another quality 2yo this year called RIBBONS (by MANDURO) who is in training with James Fanshawe.  I think she might be the daughte of KALINKA who replaces her mother as another top mare for the club, based on her two progeny to date, but of course, she doesn't add to the genetic diversity in the broodmare band.

So I am in total agreement that the club would be well served by some other bloodlines, but to be absolutely fair to Elite, we have a very good record of breeding some quality animals from a pretty small band of broodmares.

PD thanks for your comments.  Soviet Song's poor breeding record is due not only to her well documented problems in conceiving, but maybe also due to the length of her career.  Would you or anyone else have any opinions on this-I can see the thought, she was in training from 2-6 years old-most mares are usually off to the paddocks at 3 or 4?

Thanks
BBC.

Thanks PD.  I am pleased to say that the latest medical bulletin on Soviet Song is highly encouraging for her having a successful covering this year (or at least, her chances now are as good as they have been for a couple of years).

Like yourself, I do wonder about how Goldikova gets on this year at stud.  I hope for her owners that she doesn't have the same problems as our mare.

Funnily enough, the chances of a really top mare producing some top class offspring seems to be not that great.  There are some notable exceptions (MIESQUE being one) of course.  I had the pleasure of a brief chat with a lady who used to look after ALlEGRETA when she was in training.  She was of course the dam of URBAN SEA, who in turn was the dam of GALILEO and BLACK SAM BELLAMY (I believe).  Her contention was that the very best producing dams are rarely the real top class racemares.

The first four home in the 2003 1000 Guineas (Russian Rhythm, Six Perfections, Intercontinental and Soviet Song) were all exceptional fillies who won multiple Group ones including Breeders Cup races, and beating colts in the process.  And none of them have produced a Group 1 winner as yet as far as I know ( last time I looked).

Big Black Cat,What's the situation with Soviet Song?Is there no chance?If so what's going to happen to her will she go back to the UK or stay in the states?Lots of questions I know.

I see,I was asking because I noticed a piece on the Racing Post site yesterday which described Soviet Song as

"  Soviet Song, a five-time Group 1 winner who has been retired from broodmare duties,"

But after reading it again perhaps they are talking about Sister Act her sister but as she's only 8 and is in-foal to New Approach it seems unusual to say the least unless of course the whole family is plagued with fertility problems.Anyway lets hope sending her to the U.S. does pay-off and you get her back in-foal.

BBC and PD. When I got to the end of that article to see that Kirtlington Stud was in Newmarket I decided that it had been written by a 12 yo niece/nephew of one of the equally useless experts who ply their trade on there. At the end I decided that perhaps they were talking about the retirement of the dam of Soviet Star et al.
Let us know when you get the definitive BBC

Latest News- SOVIET SONG was not covered this month as her swab came back with a positive culture.  She has been treated and they remain hopeful that she will be covered on her next heat cycle.

NO talk of retirement, however, and still hopeful of a successful covering.

Its the hope I can't stand.

Thanks for your interest and thoughts.

BBC

Thanks for the link jmc.  I had not seen those photos before.  Of course, the foal is now a 3yo called SOVIET DREAM in training with James Fanshawe.

As for SOVIET SONG, she was due to be covered last Wednesday, and had put up 3 follicles (all good).  However, there has been no confirmation that she was covered from the club, which probably means that she wasn't (all bad).

No news is no news, as they say.

Thanks
BBC

That's SPEIGHTSTOWN, of course.