Bloodstock & Breeding
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08 Oct 11
19:57
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Date Joined:
17 Mar 10
Not a very surprising topic and maybe not a very surprising decision.
But we'd better have a commercial decision versus good of the game rant had we not?
But we'd better have a commercial decision versus good of the game rant had we not?
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Replies: 27
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The family is quite stoute, dam is related to stayers and 2nd dam is by Nashwan out of a Ledger winner. Will be quite popular first season but I'm not sure he will be that great.
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good enough idea as they can book in mares that cant get into accalmation as his price will go up and they will have massive booking for him next year after this years results on the track and in the sales ring last week-even coolmore bought one .
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I doubt if anyone with a mare good enough for Acclamation would want to use LL. However, with the seeingly shortage of new sires for next season its probably a good move commercially.
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i agree but it might help you to get into acclamation if u send a mare to ll as well.he did have over 300 apps last year so alot of people disappointed.
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I like the horse but I think I'm with you PotM in being pretty dismayed at these 2yo unforced retirees. Someones seen the derth of exciting 2yos this year and coupled it with Acclamation entering the big league sales (even Demi!). Add that to a virtual guarantee that Peter & Ross will buy a dozen. Do I think he'll make a good sire - no, do I think I could sell one first year - yes. As soon as Harbour Watch comes online then what happens, let alone Dark Angel keeping up some momentum and Equiano...
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Sammy
I suppose thats a fair point, I hadn't realised how popular Acclamation is. I agree with Yer Ma, in fact I think after the first season he will get very small crops and struggle to get much quality. |
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With Richard Hannon having at least 10 Listed or better 2yo's running over 6 and 7 furlongs, where are they all going to run next season? I can see why they feel that he will have limited opportunities on the racecourse next year. Lilbourne Lad only won one race in GB, a maiden worth 3500. All the other prize money earned was in Ireland or place money.
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It's horrendous territory for sure.
It is difficult for 3yo sprinters. However Sakhees Secret and Oasis Dream managed recently and they really deserve their slot at stud undoubtedly. The likes of Lilbourne Lad and Zebedee etc etc simply wouldn't end up at stud 9 times out of 10 if they raced on at 3. - I note Monsieur Chevalier's fate appears to be a slot at Horses in Training later this month. Dark Angel has a lot to answer for. If only he had crashed and burned this season it might have stemmed the tide. Right now though, the floodgates are looking rather rickety. . . |
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I was saying on the main forum that Monsieur Chevalier must be pretty hacked off alright PM
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its not hard at all for 3 year old sprinters
think -dream ahead g1 ,equiano g1,kingsgate native g1 ,sakhees sercetg1,ssb g1,lady of the desert gr 1,etc etc etc and thats just winning group 1 3 year olds,lots got places as well ie fleeting spirit etc its only hard for 3 year old sprinters that arnt good enough. the real reason is cost-to buy a group 1 3 year old stallion ur into 1 million plus even if a stud can get their hands on one.all the 2 year olds are normally bought before they race in group ones-another example is harbour watch.dark angel at least was a g1 winner the rest are just dudes. |
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Well sammy f, not hard to sgree with your comments.
It is faintly ridiculous though that the 2yo sprinters are so well catered for and the 3yo's aren't. Obviously the miler/stayers aren't expected to take on their elders until a great many prestigious 3yo only targets have been taken in. With such a strong market for the sprinting 2yo type of yearling, the stallions are needed commercially for sure. I can't help thinking that the only way to stop this current rot is to seriously address the 3yo programme so there is plenty of incentive to race at that age, and more importantly perhaps, a knock on to create an old style proper dissaproval of the other option which results in insufficient support for those that try it. |
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It is not just the lack of opportunity for 3yo's over 6/7 furlongs that may have influenced the Lilbourne Lad decision, it is the fact that half of the ones rated 100 or more are in one stable and he will find it hard to find a race without a better stablemate in opposition. The alternative is handicaps and there are a limited number for horses rated that high.
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everyone is correct but we are talking about 3 year olds that are going to make stallions,therefore there is lots of opportunity for them-if they cant win a group one as a 3 year old like the horses- stallions -below they shouldnt be considered as stallion material. as i said it just a way of studs buying in cheap as they cant afford or get hold of a real gr 1 stallion like dream ahead etc
lack of opportunities for 3 year old sprinters is a different story if we are talking about ordinary horses.stallions shouldnt be ordinary. |
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Well said Sammy, its cashing in and the only way it will stop is if they dont get the covers. If LL was really good they'd carry on but hes not.
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I agree that life is difficult for 3yo sprinters. But rather than retiring moderate 2yos with this excuse, we should just take it into account when 3yos such as Dream Ahead & Sakhees Secret do manage to come up with the goods.
Best of luck to Ballylinch with DA. Super horse. |
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Would there be enough stallions to go round if only Group 1 winners were used? The Royal Applause/Acclamation record will attract breeders to the next in the line.
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History is litttered is it not with useless sires who were group 1 winners and good ones who weren't.
I don't get too hung up about it for sure although it is a universally accepted barometer. Gp 1 races are devilishly difficult to win and it doesn't mean a colt isn't worthy because it doesn't all fall right on the day. Obviously Acclamation is reasonably popular right now! and ofcourse Dansili has had another great year. Dark Angel is an example of a horse who didn't deserve to win a Gp 1 but fluked one off 110 or some such mark. I can't see how he had any more merit than any of the other prematurers we've been talking about. A useful tool in the armoury of those who abhorr the practice of 2yo retirees will be when the 1st one hit's fertility problems. That should be a healthy wake up call! |
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Dansili another great year? On what criteria?
UK wins: 2009 83 wins, 2010 74 wins, 2011 58 wins so far so will have to go some to match last year and well down on 2009. |
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Sorry, now 59 as Green Wadi wins at Kempton!
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I personally am not fussed about criteria for stallions (eg. Gr1s only) as pattern race quality varies enormously and different horses have different attributes. However, more as a 'sportsman' and racing fan I can't abide horses not being allowed to mature (til 3 at least!) and run on their merits - preferably against a previous generation. I cant see how its good for the breed or commercially in the long term.
That said, thinking about not selling my acclamation foal and seeing if I can drum a few covers up for next year. ;) |
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The Germans will have us all [:(]
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The average OR or RPR of the best 10 winning progeny currently in training would seem a reasonable way to compare stallions. That brings in quality and quantity of high class offspring. It also means that a Group 1 winner of £100k would be rated on his merits and on a par with a winner of a £400k race of equal merit. It would penalise first and second season sires but they can have their own criteria.
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Sageform, I suspect that those folks who shell out 65k for a Dansili nomination or a large amount on a yearling are probably keen on creating a future broodmare/stallion or to get themselves to a smart track with a shout. 'Merely' owning a winner is probably not the way they gauge their or his success. 2nd equal on the sires of European stakes winners (with Montjeu, just behind Galileo)with 17 in 2011 is probably a reasonable indicator of a great season, is it not ? [;)]
Yer ma, you've got my dander up with that last statement for sure!! Instead of selling your hopefully commercial foal, would you be looking to chop him in for stallion noms with the stallion outfits that might pinhook for instance? Or would you be looking to use a foal as collatorel for delayed nomination payment? Tell me more! |
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Sorry PotM, I'd like to tell you some machiavellian masterplan but it was just a joke. We need the dough and I'm hoping for a lot of it as he's nice. The market for acclamation has gone bonkers (the doyles must have a share surely) and be very surprised if this isnt near the top.
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yer ma,It sure is the right time to be going to market with one of those!
How nice to be bang on trend. It's not easy to hit it as right as Acclamation is now, I reckon you might be able to afford a little drinkie with christmas lunch! Good Luck. |
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Stakes winners is a very sound way to judge Dansili, potm. I was just asking why you singled him out. On my stats he is going steadily downhill but he may be doing better abroad. It is interesting to look at the sire table based on prize money in which my leading sire, Kyllachy, is not in the top 20! The reason for that as usual is the Irish dimension. Kyllachy has only had 3 wins there and as we know, that is where the prize money comes from for many sires.
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I singled out Dansili to make the point of a non Gp1 winning stallion that's the business - well in stakes form anyway.
Your invaluable stats certainly make for a conversation point on the Banstead horse though Sageform. The rot better stop soon! |