Bloodstock & Breeding
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04 Sep 11
23:41
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11 Sep 07
I have a 3yo filly Certral wanted to get some input as to what sire to use or would be best for her? Experts please!
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Hello SDB,
looks like she has been a nice money spinner for you in the past,nice 8k claim as well, to my uneducated eye, I would imagine you have many options to go for, her dam has produced plenty of winners in the past over all kinds of trips , progeny have sold well, but as the experts on this forum constantly go on about its all about value/budget/patience and I suppose the biggest factor LUCK for the stallion. Anyway all the best with the venture and I'll leave the stallion pick to the experts who will I am sure give you many options to consider!! |
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Are you breeding to race or sell?
Do you want a UK sire or are you happy to send her to Ireland or France? What's your budget? Are you breeding for flat or jumps? |
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Well sdb,if she were mine I'd want to go to something that's likely to get her a early sort,something with fashionable speed.That's if you want to perhaps sell the foal either as a foal or yearling,your mare has a sire behind her who is popular but one who was not a top 2'y old himself and she has a broodmare sire who was a stamina sire,if you do want to sell then perhaps think about Tally-Ho studs two Zebedee by Invincible Spirit a very good 2'y old or even Bushranger duel GR1 winning 2' y old by Danetime,both covered large books so should have plenty of runners Bushranger will have runners if you sell I think he has a good chance of being top first season sire.
What sort of budget and where do you live UK or Ireland as that may have a bearing on your choice. |
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I'm guessing if you're with Brian then you're up north and the fillys injured so you cant keep going. She doesnt merit anything over £5k or so (not being nasty, its just realism imo). Do a lot worse than Monsieur Bond or Misu Bond - both in Yorkshire. Iffraaj an unknown broodmare quantity but his dad has an excellent record with Zafonic mares (incl another in-breeding poss Fast Company) GL
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well shiny, if you've quite finished polishing those balls, some more info as to what your no can do's involve would be good for sure.
Plus side, your filly could go just about anywhere on pedigree. N. D. and Mr P. lite with no Roberto or Blushing Groom the worlds your oyster. Minus side, the female family is accustomed to making us wait for the offspring to show their mettle. I am not sure out and out speed is going to out-manouevre a very determined female line and I would perhaps favour a miler. Green Desert line loves Mr Prospector and, you are playing with the sire family of Cape Cross, and Shirley Heights is sort of happy anywhere really, so that's where I would start. But if you type nothing else on your reply, you must let us know, are you breeding to race the offspring or sell ? |
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thanks for the informative responses. She's not injured just gone over the top for the year so I've decided I would like to try and make her into a commercial broodmare with the option of racing her next year whilst in foal. We are based in Malton so would it be prudent to try a local sire like Monsieur Bond. Also I am quite confident she had the speed to win over 6 furlongs at two if previous connections had wanted to.
So the aim really is to breed with her with the aim of selling on the progeny. Does that help the situation become clearer as what option to take, once again thank you for taking the time to reply. |
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Shiny, you are going to be knocked down in the rush on here with people telling you Monsieur B is the place to go.
HOWEVER, whilst you would certainly not be mad to go there, I don't think that mating would be nailed on to get you a 2yo. Monsieur B gets a good looking type with a bit of strength and length and he was drummed straight out of Whitsbury for only getting 13 indifferent winners in his first crop which he then followed up with only 4 in his second crop of 2yo's I think he is best off given some help on the 2yo front and I don't think your mare fits that profile despite anecdotal evidence to the contrary! However, fully understand if that's where your research brings you back to! |
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Unless circumstances allow I'd say the Zafonic & Shirely Heights to Danehill Dancer plus ability to walk-in on your doorstep saving heaps of money makes a persuasive case. Showcasing with a double Zafonic would be interesting but 300 miles away rather than 3. I hear what your saying PotM - big balancing act esp for a maiden who may or may not produce something sellable.
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Pot M, I think you are perhaps somehow involved with Whitsbury with a certain stallion but perhaps you don't know why Mon Bond was moved from that stud...........he was NOT drummed out as you say,all I can tell you is I know his owner and I know he was not drummed out of anywhere,as time has shown its Whistbury's loss and Yorkshire's gain.He offers any breeder tremendous value you may be right about his first few crops BUT like fine wine as they say he just gets better and another thing to think about when choosing stallions is the trainers love them.
The old saying springs to mind 'There is none so blind as though that will not see' Shiny disco balls. If you live near Norton Grove stud I'd go and have a look at both the Bond's you could do a lot worse with either but atm Mon Bond is hot and getting hotter! |
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I'm interested to see how the Misu Bond's sell on Thursday at Doncaster. My only concern with Monsieur Bond is the large books covered recently, will they really be the buyers for them all, surely only the top 30% will sell well as interested parties will go for the pick of the bunch?
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Blimey Prima, I feel as though I've been put through a spin dryer!
So I'm coming right back at yer  You need to put a caveat on Misu Bond. He's got runners right now and to recommend him carte blanche as one of your faves is a bit naughty in my opinion. There's none so blind? Not a phrase to be given lightly by someone who is a mate with the stallions owner! Misu Bond has a modest shot at best. Starting at the bottom with smallish books of mediocre mares is a hell of a struggle, even if he is by your favourite sire[;)] In your opinion he is a great shot in that bracket, but you can't disagree that it's a mighty tough bracket. I use Whitsbury stallions, but I use the stallions who suit my mares and the stud they stand at would never influence me ahead of that. As you know/guess I am not socialite no.1 so only ever pass pleasantries with acquaintances so sadly do not know the inside story on Monsieur Bond's departure from there. I was singularly underwhelmed by the start he made and indeed as not being the most patient of stallion judges, surely you too? so I assumed, wrongly seemingly, that he was moved for those reasons. But - and this is gonna hurt - I completely agree with you  He appears to be a slow burner and the Hampshire set are getting burnt. Well done the Malton lads!Littleun. It's hard to escape that situation with all popular sires isn't it. Trying to look for everything you want in a 60 cover sire is just never going to happen. Is it? |
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dear shiny disco balls- I can't agree with your previous posters. I think Certral's pedigree is essentially a middle distance one. Iffraaj was used to inject some speed but she still turned out best at 10 furlongs. I don't think it works out well when people try to dilute middle distance families with repeated use of cheap speed, so I would steer clear of the Bonds or any comparables and go with a good middle distance sire.
As it will be Certrals' first mating, for the sake of any subsequent progeny it is important that you get a winner on board. You should therefore only look at proven sires. Restricting your choices to proven UK middle distance sires- the choice should be Hernando |
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Monsieur Bond is a "big book" sire now. I'd steer clear personally. There will be a lot of MB yearlings on the ground in the next few years and therefore a lot of competition. If you haven't got a nice type then you're in trouble as not many of the big-hitters are buying his offspring.
What about Royal Applause...a solid sales horse...or maybe Kheleyf if you're flush. |
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Littleun2, If I were you I'd really think about Mon Bond for next year,if you do you have a large crop of decent bred runners going for you if you sell as a yearling and you get a nice colt you should have a good sale,115 mares this term is always a plus.
Pot M, No I am not being naughty when talking about Misu Bond,yes he's by a great sire who is imo one of the best,and yes I know Reg Bond very well BUT I did see him race a few times one thing I always liked about him is he was such a fantastic looking colt I had him down as a possible sire to use,the fact I know Reg has nothing to do with me recommending him,you are right mind and I can't disagree with you the price range he's in is indeed a very tough bracket,but I also know his trainer who rated him better than Mon Bond so I have always felt he may just have half a chance.As it is like you point out his mares have been by and large rubbish but moving to Norton Grove is a great idea of Reg Bonds he now should get breeders to take him a bit more seriously and at least look at him,he really does get superb looking strong sorts and as you know that's half the battle,I see he has a few in Doncaster and one at Newmarket so perhaps if you are at either sale go and have a look at the stock he seems to me to stamp his foals well.I will be wanting to see foals by Alfred Nobel as like Misu Bond he is Danehill Dancer over Warning. |
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victors,And just who is going to buy a Hernando yearling?disco balls wants to sell,Hernando is an OB type at best.
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I agree with victors' thinking that this is mainly a middle distance pedigree. Trouble is finding a sire that is on the up and going to be hot in 2 to 3 years time that s a middle distance sire , Medicean or Champs Elysees possibly.
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With Dansili doing so well Champs Elysees should be commercial but does that mare warrant a 10k stud fee and another thing to think of CE would be 3rd season.
Some seem to think this mare needs middle distance stallions............those imo will slow it down and make her stock look less attractive when disco balls comes to sell. shiny disco balls, I have to say your name on this forum has made me laugh top marks man its one of the best I've ever seen!!!  |
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I'm with prima Donna here. We need plenty of posts from you SDB as your monicker really does bring a smile to the face!
I think to bring out the best in your mare may well take something like Hernando but as we always end up on here with the commercial versus racehorse debate that's where we are again and there's no denying Hernando is way leftfield of your desire to make a bob or two at auction. The problem always is that a terrific mare who is inclined to the stout shall we say, can always visit Oasis Dream, Danehill Dancer, Pivotal and Dubawi. These are speed sires who mix well with staying pedigrees - a rare phenomena - and that's what keeps them at the top commercially and fee'ed accordingly. The cheaper competent speed, Kyllachy through to Acclamation say, do not have the aptitude to graft their speed on to staying types and they need speed mares, which keeps them lower down the sire lists but relatively high up in the commercial stakes. Prima Donna who I believe has a few mares - certainly more than me - and therefore sees plenty, always suggests a cheaper young son of one of the star and versatile sires as a way round the conundrum. However, most mares don't make many waves anyway so you could hardly be blamed from trying to make the money and run and of course maybe Ifraaj has got your family to the point where your branch could speed things up a bit in the 3rd generation. |
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I agree here with Pot M to a larger part,but shiny disco balls when selling yearlings always try to go with a stallion that's what we call an emerging stallion unless of course you can afford real top quality proven stallions,Black Sam Bellamy has suggested Royal Applause and Kheleyf you can make a strong case for them but I'd be aware with Royal Applause he's getting on now and sometimes stallions get get a bit 'old hat' he is one of those who maybe by the time you come to sell buyers will be a touch cold on him.
Kheleyf who has been spoken about on here recently has sold well so far this year but when you look at the cold facts he has done ok without setting the world on fire,if he does not come up with something good either this or next year he will be dead in the water. Hernando really is and has never been remotely commercial he's done well but the perception with him is really a high class jump stallion,if it wasn't for his loving owner supporting him so much I doubt he'd be here now (standing as a flat sire,I know of one jump stud who were trying to buy him for that job),I see you live in Moulton Yorkshire,then count yourself lucky and pop down to see the Bond's you certainly could do an awful lot worse,esp' for your outlay.Food for thought perhaps. |
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If you actually look at his sales figures, Hernando's results are perfectly reasonable. He was helped by scarcity value and consistent racecourse success
2010 yearling average 16166 gns 2009 yearling average 19578 gns 2008 yearling average 15266 gns 2007 yearling average 58641 gns Using a proven stallion like him, you will be acting in the best long term interests of your mare. |
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looking at sage's sire's thread would Beat Hollow be worth a punt
he looks like a slow burner who winning people over |
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Well victors I can see you are not a commercial breeder,the plain fact is using stallions like Hernando would only minimize your appeal at any flat sale and remember shiny disco balls does want to sell the stock.
jonnyrotten, I'm afraid Beat Hollow is about as good as Hernando its only a matter of time before Juddmonte except he's only a NH sire plenty of breeders know this already...........their return of mares shows this as well! |
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Sorry to wade in Victors, but the 'average' method when applied to sales stats is dangerous.
Hernando may have posted that average in 2010, but of his 9 yearlings offered the top 2 yearlings pulled up the average and the other 7 all lost money. Not a good stat. He's also approaching 38 years of age with fertility to match so we need to move on! I think I'd hope for a Champs Elysees type to retire this year. As a 1st seasoner with the right sire and dam he'll fly commercially IF his stock look the part. I think though he's pretty likely to go the stayers route for me which would appear to be a nifty way to stay sexy BUT enabling a breeder to go with a stayer if that's what the mare wants. |
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Prima Donna I have listed the facts (not opinions) about Hernandos sales results- they are respectable results for the marketplace over the past few years.. A breeders return will be the cumulative return from all of her offspring, not just the first foal. If you don't understand that point and only focus on the sales price of the first foal, then I suspect it is you who lacks commercial understanding. The best way to increase the value of the subsequent foals is to get winners on the board from the early foals. Hernando is exceptionally good at producing winners and indeed black type performers. His stats are from 619 foals of racing age he has sired 487 starters (79%), 334 winners (54%), 39 (6%) black type winners and an average earnings index (aei) of 1.82. By comparison Monsieur Bond's figures are 203 foals of racing age, 134 starters (66%), 53 winners (26%), 3 black type winners (1%) and an aei of .85. Ask yourself which sire is more likely to sire a winner, thereby increasing the value of your mare?
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victors,
Well that's an interesting view about me lacking commercial understanding but as I often say on here we are all entitled to our opinions.But as shiny disco balls wants to sell his future stock out of his mare who is from a stout family only someone who wants to waste a lot of money would consider a stallion like Hernando.Do you really think he offers value and a chance of a good return standing for 12k? You are right mind that his mare needs to get winners but using sires like you suggest any future sales would most likely be hampered by the fact when you came to sell yearling No2 the mare would not of had a runner let alone a winner, I'd guess you don't own mares or if you do you are an owner breeder one who can wait years for your return,but for those of us who operate within the commercial side of this industry we can't afford to,we need early results to get any potential mare moving in the right direction. Stallions like Hernando and Beat Hollow are good but neither are remotely commercial they are at best owner breeder types with mares like shiny disco balls owns it would be like committing commercial suicide using that sort,but pleas feel free to buck the trend and have a go yourself...........but then what would I know as you point out I have no commercial understanding[:o] |
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Great replies many thanks. Will it help which sire to use if I want to keep the first one to make sure I have the maximum chance of getting it to win as a 2yo. Think that would be a possibility.
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shiney disco balls,
Just out of interest how much would your budget be for the mare in question? |
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shiney disco ball,
If you are free of commercial restraintants it does open up a few more options,perhaps you may consider Bertolini at 3k not such bad value and a sire who gets winners,he does well on the AW and gets his share of 2' olds.Stallions like him can get you an early winner but for the same price again Mon Bond does well,with him his stock are popular and getting more so. Darleys Exceed and Excel would be both a great choice and very commercial but would cost you a lot more,I'd guess his fee will go up next year,personally the last thing I'd do with her is cover her with a staying plod like some are suggesting. |
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If you want to keep the first one that opens it up a bit.
I'll probably get shotdown for this but how about Haafhd? He's starting to do ok, (see sageforms latest sires in form thread), gets 2yo winners, has a respectable strike rate and is just £5K. I see from your mares pedigree that she had a black type performer (in germany) half sister called Fleurie Domaine by Unfuwain and Haafhd is from that line too. It would help us a bit if you could give us some idea of budget and whether you would be prepared to send her across the Irish sea for a covering. |
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Haathd ?
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57 winners of 85 races and 52% winners to runners in 2011 which places him 2nd in Europe. 4% stakes winners to runners.
Pretty impressive and perhaps maybe a goer if you could race the offspring and maybe a compromise to suit what your family is all about. Who? Our old mucker Beat Hollow! Agree Bertolini at heavily discounted 3k perhaps, is a great winner getter including at 2. I think Haafhd 'starting to get winners' wouldn't allow me to forgive him 3 indifferent crops from a starting fee of 17k! |
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OMG...........Haafhd what possible criteria does he fill???? other than being entire,TB,and at public stud!in one word only............. useless
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I knew you'd love this suggestion PD.
What criteria: UK based Cheap Gets winners - 44 this yr Gets 2 yo winners From line that has done well with the family before Better suggestion that the cheap speed dross you keep recommending [;)] I knew this was a bit leftfield but at least its kept us entertained. |
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Hello SDB
for my money I think you should look at a green desert/danehill dancer sire. they will cross well with your mare being from Mr Prospector sire line amd with no danzig in your pedigree you should get a good outcross. I myself have 2 mares from Mr Prospector stallion lines and have gone down this road this year. There are plenty of value sires fromj these lines including the oasis dreams, most of which have already been mentioned. I used Kheleyf and Monsieur Bond this year and I think both would suit your mare. MB is a good looking type and they will be very helpful at Norton Stud. As your mare is related to jumpers, what about Multiplex. He has got 2yo winners this year and PD has posted that he has served NH mares. You get 2 or 3 chances to sell, either foal, yearling or stores. I intend to go this way next tear as one of my mares had a 1/2 brother that has won over hurdles and looks a champion hurdle prospect. He has definate chances of making it on the flat and is bred to get milers which may suit your mare. If you intend to spend a bit more on a stallion I'm not your man (as most on here will know). There has been some debate about what is commercial and what isn't. The way I see it is that whether you like it or not the bulk of agents and trainers (and they are the ones that buy them, not owners), want horses that can win as 2yo's. If you breed the classier stayer types you will get f**k all for them and just end up subsidising someone elses hobby . good luck |
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I have to agree with PD that you have to think commercially because if you dont you'll use money and lots of it. The way to go about this is to use cheap speed and use sons of stallions that are hot and commercial. Thinking sons of Oasis Dream and Danehill Dancer is the way to go or maybe a son of Mozart. Dandy Man or Showcasing(inbreeding to Zafonic is something i'm looking into he had some turn of foot, PD i know your not a fan) would be my choice for unproven stallions, I agree that Monsieur Bond is a nice choice and big books to come can only be good but if some trainers dont get what they like he could go a bit cold with the agents.
truehoncho has a good point you dont want to be a feeder for someone elses hobby so be careful and stay away from stayers or uncommercial types. |
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Rip Van, I agree with you. Tough I don't know where you get that I am not keen on Zafonic? I am not a fan of Zafonic as a sire of sires but I do think he is a good broodmare influence. On another point Rip Van, I know you used Bushranger, what is your foal like? I don't know if you've seen on the Fastnet Rock thread but we have one that is overtopped and not looking so great. Wondering if yours shows similar traits?
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Oh i thought you didnt like Zafonic at all sorry about that. Our Bushranger doesn't look like the rest of the Bushrangers i've seen it has a lot of scope and doesn't really look like a two year old as it is taking a lot of time to come into itself which is disappointing as we where hoping for a good two year old. Other than that it has no confirmation problems and is a nice foal.
We also have a Fastnet Rock out of a mare we bought last year in foal to him and i do hope that there able race as there not lookers in general, but as with the Bushranger no confirmation problems and unlike himself it has an ok head. There strong everywhere if you ask me nice backend and very good limbs. Our foal had a bit of fluid around the hocks a while back from a little bang but we had it drained and is flying it now |
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Posh Paddy 07 Sep 11 22:27
Better suggestion that the cheap speed dross you keep recommending Posh Paddy I do hope you have noticed just how well the cheap dross speed I have recommended have sold at Doncaster this evening esp' Misu Bond!!!  Rip Van, Yes I know what you mean about the Fastnet Rock's,as you may remember me saying we have one too,it sounds a similar sort but ours has a plainish head or as I keep saying 'an 'honest'head,but overall we are very pleased with it............ so far. The Bushranger foal is showing signs of improvement it needs too mind,its one of those foals that we all get now and again the sort when you enter the box you are hopeful of being met with a nice foal looking back at you once you cast your eyes over it you leave the box fast slamming the stable door vowing never to use that effing dreg stallion again I'm sure you know what I mean! |
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Prima. 'Workmanlike' head which he's sure to 'grow into'
Oh, and it's never the mares fault is it when the disasters appear.  Where would we be without the beer goggles |