Bloodstock & Breeding
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12 Aug 11
18:48
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Date Joined:
16 Mar 11
Anyone hear that the Aga Khan was not impressed by what he saw and didn't send any of mares back to him at his second season at stud. Also heard that Dermot Weld had one and quickly got rid of it as its was terrible.
Is this just normal "pub" chat or has anyone one of the breeders on hear heard such rumours.
Is this just normal "pub" chat or has anyone one of the breeders on hear heard such rumours.
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Replies: 26
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Well I read he had sent mares back one been Red Quartez and for the Weld thing thats 100% possible every stallion has more duds than success stories!
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I think it's a bit early to be making such a call, they're only foals, maximum 8 months old.
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Pub Talk
There wouldn't be time to make those sort of decisions before the barreners and maiden mares need covering. The horse is so well bred that there is not a chance that his potent make up wouldn't be transferred to a reasonably good proportion of his stock. All the pictures I have seen seems to have them a pretty even bunch, though I know that could be engineered, not the most forward admittedly, but there will be some fabulous ones out there for sure, just a case of what proportion. |
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Cheers for the replys guys.
I watch this space as they say |
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there most be a lot of good will out there as well[:p]
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Saw a cracking one in France earlier this year, out of a mare that had already produced a Classic winner - looked pretty decent to me.
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We have one or two by him,as I've said before I'm not so sure he will make it as he is not that small and looks just the sort to get stock that will want a bit of time.I'd have to say that if you can go beyond the sire and look at it for what it is (hard seemingly by many) I'd say his stock are nothing outstanding,but that's only my view,I don't agree with Pot M with his comment "The horse is so well bred that there is not a chance that his potent make up wouldn't be transferred to a reasonably good proportion of his stock"that's imo the view of someone swept away by the racetrack form of the horse,long term I can see him being just like any of the Aga's stallions,gets a few good ones but generally not a superstar.IMO he is as likely to be filling the same slot as Sakhee is now, (as observed by Pot M in the other thread), as he is to be filling his brothers slot as Ch sire.Even with his family there is no guarantee he will be any good, been given good chances but all I will say is, Generous anyone........?
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:o PD if you have one or two by him looking through his first book you must have some decent broodmares
1. AFFIANCED (IRE) – J S Bolger – Listed winner, G3 placed dam of Irish Derby winner Soldier of Fortune and G3 winner Heliostatic 2. ALAYA (IRE) – HH Aga Khan – winning half-sister to Alamshar, dam of G3 winner Alayan 3. ALBANOVA (GB) – Miss K Rausing – triple G1 winner, half-sister to Alborada4. ALIZAYA (IRE) – Sunderland Holdings – unraced half-sister to dual G1 winner Alandi 5. ALLELUIA (GB) – Airlie Stud & Miss K Rausing – G3 winner, dam of G1 winner Allegretto 6. ALPINE ROSE (FR) – no owner given – G1 winner 7. ALWAYS AWESOME (USA) – CF Farms – US mare, dam of stakes winner Bear Always 8. ANGE BLEU (USA) – Bjorn Nielsen – Maiden, dam of US G1 winner Angara 9. ANNA AMALIA (IRE) – Plantation Stud – Dam of US G1 winner Ave & G3 placed Dubawi Phantom 10. APPROACH (GB) – Denford Stud – G2 placed, Listed winner, dam of G1 placed Midas Touch 11. AQUARELLE BLEUE (GB) – Sunderland Holdings – maiden, daughter of triple G1 winner Aquarelliste 12. ARGENTINA (IRE) – Darley – Listed winner, placed in 5 G1s in France and USA 13. ASMARA (USA) – HH Aga Khan – Listed winner, dam of G1 winner Azamour 14. BEHKARA (IRE) – HH Aga Khan – G2 winner, G1 placed, dam of G1 winner Behkabad 15. BELLE ET CELEBRE (FR) – Aliette & Giles Forien – G1 winner in France 16. BITOOH (GB) – Sunderland Holdings – maiden, immediate family of Alexandrova, Magical Romance, Puce, Pongee and Shouk 17. BLAS CEOIL (USA) – J S Bolger – winner, half sister to decent Japanese horses 18. BORDIGHERA (USA) – Lael Stables – dam of George Washington & Grandera 19. BORGIA (GER) – Gestut Ammerland – dual G1 winner 20. BOURBONELLA (GB) – Graham Farm Partnership – unraced half-sister to Persian Punch, dam of G1 winner Aqlaam 21. BUFFALO BERRY (IRE) – Sir E J Loder – Listed winner, dam of US G1 placed, G3 winner Chattahoochee War 22. CAP COZ (IRE) – Mrs C Regalado-Gonzalez – Listed winner, G3 placed, dam of G2 winner Indian Days 23. CASUAL LOOK (USA) - no owner given – G1 Oaks winner, dam of winners 24. CAUMSHINAUN (IRE) – Mrs C L Weld – Listed winner, dam of G1 winner Nightime 25. CENTREOFATTENTION (AUS) – Mrs C Regalado-Gonzalez – ran in Oz, but I can’t find any info on her! 26. CLAXON (GB) – Hesmonds Stud Ltd – G2 winner, half-sister to Dust Dancer (grand-dam of Tyranny), dam of G1 placed Cassydora 27. COYOTE (GB) – Sir Eric Parker – winner, daughter of Nassau Stakes winner, dam of G3 winner, G1 placed Oh Goodness Me 28. CUIS GHAIRE (IRE) - no owner given – G3 winner, G1 placed 29. DANASKAYA (IRE) – Ballylinch Stud - G1 placed, dam of winners 30. DANELETA (IRE) – Airlie Stud & N Clay – Winner, G3 placed, dam of G1 winner Intense Focus 31. DARIENA (FR) – Etreham/Janus/Vision – winner, half-sister to G1 winner Darjina 32. DARINSKA (FR) – Princess Zahra Aga Khan – winner, G3 placed, dam of 3 time G1 winner Darjina 33. DASHING (IRE) – Saleh Al Homeizi – unraced half-sister to G3 winner Medecis and G1 winner Alexander Goldrun 34. DASH TO THE TOP (GB) – Meon Valley Stud – Listed winner, G1 placed, dam of G3 placed Dynasty 35. DOLORES (GB) – Normandie Stud – Listed winner, G2 placed, dam of G2 winner Duncan 36. DRAMA CLASS (IRE) – Ballymacoll Stud – winner, Listed placed, half sister to G2 winner Stage Gift, dam of G1 placed Scottish Stage 37. DRIFA (ITY) – Allevamento La Nuova Sbarra – can’t find her race record, dam of Italian G1 winner De Sica 38. ECOUTILA (USA) – Ecoutilla Partnership – unraced, half-sister to G3 winner Pas de Reponse and G1 winner Green Tune, dam of Listed winner Enticement 39. EPPING (GB) – Sunderland Holdings –winner, half-sister to Self Defense, dam of G1 placed The Last Drop 40. EVA’S REQUEST (IRE) – Lady Bamford – G1 winner in Italy 41. EXCITING TIMES (FR) – Breeding Capital, Watership Down, Farish – dam of G1 winner Gorella 42. EXHIBIT ONE (USA) – Edy SRL & Societa Agricola Gem SRL – G3 winner 43. EZIMA (IRE) – Shadwell – Listed winner, G2 placed 44. FAIRY OF THE NIGHT (IRE) – Sunderland Holdings – Listed winner, half sister to G3 winner Dress Rehersal dam of 1 foal to race, a winner 45. FARFALA (FR) – Arbib Bloodstock Partnership – Listed winner, half-sister to G1 winner Fragrant Mix, dam of Listed winner, G2 placed Under the Rainbow 46. FINSCEAL BEO (IRE) – Michael Ryan – three time G1 winner 47. FOOLISH ACT (IRE) – Ben Sangster – unraced half-sister Crystal Crossing (dam of G1 winner Rule of Law) and G3 winner Circle of Gold 48. GERMANCE (USA) – Janus Bloodstock – G1 winner 49. GIROUETTE (IRE) - no owner given – G3 winner 50. GLINTING DESERT (IRE) – Lodge Park Stud – winner, out of a half-sister to New Approach, dam of G1 winner Alfred Nobel 51. HATHRAH (IRE) – Shadwell – Listed winner, half sister to G2 winner Ivan Luis, 52. HEAD IN THE CLOUDS (IRE) – Abergwaun Farm – G3 winner, half-sister to G1 winner Millenary 53. HILL OF SNOW (GB) – Abergwaun Farm – winner, dam of G1 placed Snowfire 54. HUMILIS (IRE) – Castleton Lyons & Kilboy Estate – Listed winner 55. ICE MINT (USA) – Knighton Hse, Eadling Farm & Marengo – maiden, half-sister to G1 winner Falco 56. INFALLIBLE (GB) – Cheveley Park Stud – G3 winner, G1 placed 57. ISLA CANELA (USA) - no owner given – winner, dam G1 winner Islington 58. KALAMBA (IRE) – HH Aga Khan – dam of G1 winner Kalanisi 59. KAREEMAH (IRE) – Shadwell – Listed winner, half sister to G1 winner Lahudood 60. KARMIFIRA – Forenaghts Stud & Dermot Cantillon – Listed winner, G1 placed, dam of G1 placed On Verra 61. KATDOGAWN (GB) – Thistle Bloodstock – G2 winner, G1 placed 62. KEY CHANGE (IRE) – Newberry Stud Company – G1 winner, dam of G1 hurdle winner Pittoni 63. LADY LUCK (IRE) – Moyglare Stud Farm – winner, dam of G1 winner Casual Conquest 64. LIGHT OF MORN (GB) – George Strawbridge – winner, half sister to Classic Cliché out of G1 winning dam, 65. LOOK HERE (GB) – Lawn Stud (also covered by Danehill Dancer) – G1 Oaks Winner 66. LOVE DIVINE (GB) – Lordship Stud – G1 Oaks winner, dam of G1 winner Sixties Icon 67. LOVE TO DANCE (IRE) – Copeshill Stables – maiden, half-sister to G1 winners Dylan Thomas and Queen’s Logic 68. LUMINARIA (IRE) – J S Bolger – unraced, half sister to G1 placed Luminata 69. LUSH LASHES (GB) - no owner given – G1 winner 70. MAGICAL ROMANCE (IRE) – Kincorth Investments – G1 winner 71. MAID OF KILLEEN (IRE) – Lady Bamford – winner, dam of G1 winner Indian Ink 72. MAOINEACH (USA) - no owner given – G3 winner from family of KY Oaks winner Dispute 73. MARIE RHEINBERG (GER) – Team Hogdala AB – dam of G1 winner Le Havre 74. MASKAYA (IRE) – Epona Bloodstock & P A Byrne – half sister to G1 winner Danaskaya, dam of G1 placed Drumbeat 75. MINTLY FRESH (USA) – HH Aga Khan – Listed placed, dam of G2 winner, G1 placed Manighar 76. MISS HAWAI (FR) – D G Hardisty Bloodstock – unraced, dam of G1 placed Bunny Beach 77. MISS UNIVERSE (IRE) – Stratford Place Stud – winner & Listed placed, dam of G1 winner Donativum 78. MODEL QUEEN (USA) – Highclere Stud & HMH Management – winner out of half sister to the dam of Zafonic, dam of G1 winner Regal Parade 79. MOOD SWINGS (IRE) – A Stroud & J Hanly – winner, dam of G3 winner Grand Ducal 80. MOONLIGHT’S BOX (USA) – Niarchos Family – from excellent family, out of half-sister to Machiavellian, dam of G1 Arc winner Bago 81. MRS LINDSAY (USA) – Derry Meeting Farm – dual G1 winner, 82. MRS MARSH (GB) – S F Bloodstock – unraced, dam of multiple G1 winner Canford Cliffs 83. MULTICOLOUR WAVE (IRE) – Pier House Stud – dam of G1 winner Elusive Wave 84. MUSICAL TREAT (IRE) – Rathbarry Stud – winner, Listed placed, dam of G1 winner Finsceal Beo and G2 winner Frozen Power 85. MY BRANCH (GB) – Bjorn Nielsen – Listed winner, G1 placed, dam of G1 winner Tante Rose 86. MY DUBAI (IRE) – Darley – maiden half-sister to G1 winner and Ch 1st Season Sire Iffraaj by Dubai Millennium, dam of a winner 87. NASHMIAH (IRE) – Rabbah Bloodstock – Listed winner 88. NATIVE FORCE (IRE) – Peter McCutcheon – winner, dam of G1 winner Kingsgate Native 89. NAVAJO MOON (IRE) – S F Bloodstock – Listed winner 90. NEBRASKA TORNADO (USA) – Juddmonte Farms – dual G1 winner 91. NEW MORNING (IRE) – Darley – G3 winner, sister to G1 winner Islington 92. NIGHT FAIRY (IRE) – Sunderland Holdings – winner, sister to Fairy of the Night, half sister to G3 winner Dress Rehersal 93. NORDHOCK (USA) – Richard Frisby Bloodstock – winner, half sister to G1 winner Mastercraftsman 94. PALMERAIE (USA) – Bjorn Nielsen – dam of G3 winner Place Rouge and G2 winner, G1 placed Pushkin 95. PREMIERE CREATION (FR) – Prestonwood Farms – winner, G1 placed, dam of G3 winner Leo’s Starlet and G1 placed Anabaa’s Creation 96. QUEEN’S LOGIC (IRE) – Rabbah Bloodstock – unbeaten G1 winner, half-sister to G1 winner Dylan Thomas, dam of G2 winner, G1 placed Lady of the Desert 97. QUE PUNTUAL (ARG) – Earle Mack – G1 winner in Argentina 98. QUILANGA (GER) – Gestut Fahrhof – G3 winner, daughter of GER 1,000 Guineas winner 99. QURRAH (IRE) – Shadwell – maiden half sister to G1 winner Virginia Waters 100. RAFHA (GB) – Nawara Stud Co Ltd – G1 winner, dam of G1 winner and top sire Invincible Spirit 101. RAMONA (GB) – John Connaughton – unraced half sister to G1 placed Cassandra Go and G1 placed Verglas, dam of G3 winner Prima Luce 102. RED BLOOM (GB) – Cheveley Park Stud – G2 winner, G1 placed 103. RIPPLES MAID (GB) – Redland Bloodstock Ltd – Listed winner, half sister to G3 winner Peak to Creak 104. ROSA DEL DUBAI (IRE) – Az Ag Francesca – G3 winner, out of G1 placed dam 105. SACARINA (GB) – Gestut Karlshof – dam of three G1 winners – Schiaparelli, Samum and Salve Regina 106. SACRED SONG (USA) – Niarchos Family – G3 winner, G1 placed, dam of G2 winner Multidimensional 107. SADIMA (IRE) – Frank Dunne – winner, dam of G1 Creachadoir and G1 placed Youmzain 108. SANTA TERESITA (USA) - no owner given – US G1 winner 109. SANWA (GER) – Breeding Capital – unraced daughter of Sacarina (see above) 110. SCRIBONIA (IRE) – J S Bolger – unraced, dam of G1 placed Cuis Ghaire and G1 placed Gile Na Greine 111. SENORA GALILEI (IRE) – J S Bolger – winner, full sister to G1 winner Teofilo 112. SEWARDS FOLLY – Salah Al Homaizi – maiden, dam of G2 winner Sayif 113. SHEMAYA (IRE) – HH Aga Khan – Listed winner, half-sister to G3 winner, G2 placed Shemima 114. SILENT HEIR (AUS) – Breeding Capital & Swettenham Stud – winner, out of a half sister to New Approach, dam of G3 winner Young Pretender 115. SOINLOVEWITHYOU (USA) – W de Burgh & Hill N Dale Equine Holding – winning half-sister to G1 winner Duke of Marmalade 116. SONG (IRE) – Paulyn Ltd – unraced half-sister to G1 winners Yesterday, Quarter Moon and G1 placed All My Loving 117. SOPRAN LONDA (IRE) – Leonardo Ciampoli – G2 winner, dam of G1 winner Cima de Triomphe 118. SPECIFICALLY (USA) - Newsells Park Stud – winner, half sister to G1 winner Pride, dam of G1 winner Speciosa 119. SPECIOSA (IRE) – M H Sly, Dr T Davies & Mrs P Sly – G1 winner 120. SPEED SONG (GB) – Sunderland Holdings – winner, half-sister to G3 winner Enticing, out of G1 placed Superstar Leo 121. SPIRIT OF TARA (IRE) – Kilcarn Stud – G2 placed, half-sister to G1 winners Marju and Salsabil, dam of G2 winner & Echo of Light 122. STARLIGHT DREAMS (USA) – S F Bloodstock – winner, dam of 4 time G1 winner Mastercraftsman 123. STRAIGHT LASS (IRE) – Serge Boucheron – unraced, dam of G1 winner Naaqoos and G3 winner Barastraight 124. SUGAR FREE (IRE) - no owner given – Listed winner, out of G2 winner, G1 placed dam 125. TAMARIND (IRE) - no owner given – G3 winner, sister to G2 winner Crimson Tide, out of half-sister to Shahrastani 126. TARIYSHA (IRE) – Corduff Bloodstock & Yellow Bird Synd – unraced, dam of G1 winner Arcano 127. TIME ON (GB) – W & R Barnett – G2 winner out of G1 placed dam 128. TREASURE THE LADY (IRE) – S Coughlan – winner, half-sister to multiple G1 winner High Chaparral 129. UNILATERAL (IRE) - no owner given – G3 winner, G2 placed ¾ sister to top sire Danehill Dancer 130. UIMHIR A HAON (IRE) – M Ryan – winner, G3 placed, half-sister to G1 winner Maids Causeway 131. VADAZA (FR) – HH Aga Khan – Listed placed, dam of G1 winner Vadawina 132. VERBA (FR) - no owner given – Listed winner, G3 placed, half-sister to G1 placed Ximb 133. VIRTUOSITY (GB) – Cheveley Park Stud – winner, half-sister to G2 winner, G1 placed Iceman 134. VODKA (JPN) - no owner given – 7 time G1 winner 135. WADUD (GB) – Taihei Stud Farm – maiden, dam of G1 placed Ice Queen 136. WALKAMIA (FR) – Ballygallon Stud – G3 winner, G1 placed 137. YUMMY MUMMY (GB) – Newsells Park Stud – winner, half-sister to G1 winner Fame and Glory 138. ZARKASHA (IRE) – HH Aga Khan – unraced half-sister to G3 winner Zarkiya, dam of unbeaten G1 winner Zarkava 139. ZARKAVA (IRE) – HH Aga Khan – unbeaten 5 time G1 winner 140. ZIBILENE (GB) – Barouche Stud – winner, half-sister to G1 winners Barathea and Gossamer |
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I was just commenting on whether the Aga Khan would have had time to make a decision that See The Stars progeny would look negative enough to stop the Aga sending any mares as per the question.
I still feel that on the looks front Sea The Stars is genetically well endowed and pedigreed to stamp a good proportion of his stock accordingly. I can see them lookiong a bit raw right now as it's a bit of a transitional period for the mid season foals I always think. Hopefully Prima yours will be impressing you hugely soon - after the hammer falls perhaps  .I actually do agree that he could be filling a Sakhee type slot in due course. Although lots of water under my bridge suggests that he would be more like 2/5 than evens to end up so. There's not much room for new Galileos at any time in history! |
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JM27
thats some book of mares. i find it hard to believe that he isnt going to get several good ones out of that lot, but i am used to dealing at a different end of the scale (almost a different species). are there others that got this type of book and failed? |
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I know what you mean about a different species truehincho! That made me smile for sure, but we'll get there one day
 I suppose it's how you define failure really. It's not fair to expect S T S to be a super sire but the fact is that is what expected. Prima Donna mentioned Generous and ofcourse Dancing Brave springs to mind. Also to a certain extent Rock of Gibralter and Shareef Dancer not to mention Golden Fleece started off from a pretty strong base. Failure is the most likely scenario from wherever you commence really! |
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A book of 140
 Plenty of money for Chris Tsui to invest in a new nightclub |
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My point with using Generous as an comparable stallion with Sea the Stars is that he is from such a strong high class family similar to STS unlike the other stallions mentioned above,much has been made of the fact the Rock has such a moderate page behind him,Generous has a very strong page behind him,but to date its done nothing to help him.
Personally I think the biggest help Galileo has had is the fact his connections have supported him from the off,sending him mares who are highly likely to get early classy sorts,King's Best and Black Sam Bellamy have been no great shakes at stud,add in the fact STS is by a poor sire of sires are you all so sure he will be such a success at stud?I think for the next year or two he will be,we have used him again this year on several but I doubt we will continue but we will have to see. |
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Would that be the kind of book Gallileo covers every year lads?
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Yes, nowadays neild. He wasn't as well supported at the beginning though and you could get deals below 30 euros in the tricky unproven years.
I think with Caerleon - history has him as overrated in my view - he was a sufficient negative as a sire of sires with a whole career when nobody wanted his sons. So I suppose you could say that Generous's damline had to do all the work. Cape Cross is similar really as he's had no sons people would have wanted to use so he cannot be considered a bad sire of sires as he isn't actually a sire of sires! Nijiinsky through Caerleon would be less attractive creating a sire prospect than Green Desert through Cape Cross to me. And nothing would put me off the Allegretta tribe just because there's been indifferent sires there. I'm not so sure that Sea The Stars is nailed on mind - but it's a bit crazy to not give him every chance. A nice winner today that might signal the first from the next generation of one of Slick'n'Smooths familys Prima? Many congratulations - if I'm not barking up the wrong tree? [;)] |
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Pot M,I think you have the right man[;)]and thanks!
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Thats some book of mares.I don't thimk that STS can be judged on that list though as an awful lot of mares on that list have no foal at foot by him.I believe somewhere in the region of 70 foals would be a more accurate number.
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Just a thought this was one topic of conversation this evening,how many of you think that if the mighty Galileo had stood with Darley from the start of his career would he achieved the success that he has enjoyed to date?Somehow I doubt it but we will never really know I suppose,it does look like he will every bit as good as his sire Sadlers Wells.Personally I've always thought he has two massive advantages standing with Coolmore,1 their BM band and 2,Aiden O'Brien training his stock.Agree or not?
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You'd have to say no I suppose, but they do seem to be thinking more commercially/ progressively of late, had some nice 2yo's these last few years
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All evidence indicates that Darley would not have made Galileo what he is today.
Having said that good trainers make good horses and Soldier of Fortune was a real feather in the cap of Galileo straight out the blocks. Treasure Beach to stand in America??? opinions. Cape Blanco looks destined already for their |
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Jim Bolger did a great job also and is helping them really again with Holy Roman Emperor filly Banimpre.
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2 Galileo's
2 Grade 1's In America Dream Stuff |
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Looking at the book that STS has had I noticed that some of the mares are by Galileo. I think I'm right in saying that would mean that the progeny would be inbred to Urban Sea 2x3. Would inbreeding like that be considered too close or with Thoroughbreds is there no such thing as being to inbred?
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Fender, there have been lots of breeders over the years who have majored in quite close inbreeding and with plenty of success. There are many too who concentrate more on outcrossing for more 'hybrid vigour' if you like and they too have had there successes. It's very hard to quantify, but every now and then the results of fairly small studies seem to suggest that there isn't much between the two.
A compatible mating and good husbandry perhaps being the most important. I would inbreed 2x3 to Urban Sea. She is supremely bred, talented and sound on the track and has been magnificent for the breed. Fewer flaws than most and greater advantages too I would have thought it worth a try. Coolmore versus elsewhere? I don't necessarily think Aidan O'Brien is a greater trainer than Stoute, Fabre, Cecil etc. but I think he is very committed to the Coolmore machine who are the sole providers of the food on his table and that is a massive incentive for him. Perhaps that is something the Maktoums should've paid more attention to. I suppose with Loder and Hern/Tregoning they came close, but picking the right man must be difficult and as I have said before certain of the brothers are unable to leave well alone with the training process! I wonder how much of his income comes from Coolmore via shares and nominations? That too gives Aidan an incentive as opposed to Loder who perhaps didn't give enough as long as he was able to afford his sexy car and his RayBans! I'm not much disposed to trawl through Return of Mares right now, but I don't think that Galileo felt the full force of the Coolmore broodmare machine. He was a staying son of Sadlers and they weren't really the height of fashion when he first went to stud. His stud fee compared to The Rock and Giants Causeway retiring at a similar time is an indicator of that so perhaps his venue wasn't as necessary to his success as some perhaps? Hard to believe he couldn't have made it in a pretty similar fashion. |
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I think the setup is the main reason for Ballydoyle's success. They have the best staff nevermind the best horse's. Vet's like Demi O Byrne been their since Vincent's time. Its such a incredible well oiled machine and everyone is well looked after.
The staff are given such delegation that allows them to every year become more and more motivated. I once heard a story that the lad's that looks after future Stallions get nominations when they move to Coolmore from Ballydoyle(probaly poppycock) but almost certainly they are well looked after. They buy into it 100%. |
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Away from race results working for the boys in blue is in a different league than the boys in navy. Without going into to much detail my cousins work for both and have decent numbers in both organizations and the perks Godolphin give my cousin are jaw dropping as good as top tabler in a blue chip company
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