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Prima Donna
09 Oct 10 09:16
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Date Joined: 29 Apr 09
| Topic/replies: 4,152 | Blogger: Prima Donna's blog
With this colt's form and being a staying son of Montjeu does he hold any appeal as a flat stallion?If he were mine I think I would go down the 'Yeats' route,if he wins the Gold Cup at Ascot I could see him having plenty of appeal as a high class jump stallion,or do you think they will market as a flat stallion?For me anyway he has no appeal as I can never see him being remotely commercial for the flat.
With the very limited achievements of Motivator and connections Hurricane Run as flat sires both sons of Montjeu has he any chance of bucking the trend?I for one can't see him changing what to date has shown Montjeu is a very disappointing sire of sires,what do breeders think?
Pause Switch to Standard View Fame and Glory what next?
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Report zilzal1 October 9, 2010 11:48 AM BST
Sun Alliance Novice hurdle imo
Report DMCK October 9, 2010 7:27 PM BST
Japam of he wins the BC turf, the Beeches in cork (bhoy) if he flops again. He has no page or class about him.
id have Septimus or Scorpian before him.
has the "yeats" route not been ear marked for SNS? Laugh
Report RipVanWinkle October 9, 2010 7:48 PM BST
I've used Scorpion and i'd use him ahead of **** again. He has no turn of foot which is down fall, i'd expect him to be sold to another stud
Report Black Sam Bellamy October 10, 2010 10:22 AM BST
Montjeu has left a decent legacy down under after a brief period shuttling. I'd say there would be plenty of demand for him down there as a Derby winning son of Montjeu.
Report Prima Donna October 10, 2010 10:34 AM BST
I agree Black Sam,thinking about it and reading what some have said that makes perfect sense,as nothing up here for him except as I say a high class jump sire.
Report perrydinho October 11, 2010 10:05 AM BST
surely the only thing to argue about fame and glory is his fee as it seems nuts that a gp1 winner at 2/3/4 from top class sire like Montjeu showing all the qualities of speed, stamina and durability (the mainstays of the industry for 100s of years) should not be near the top of the list of the new intake. However what are those qualities when it comes to fickle fashion '-(
Report Prima Donna October 11, 2010 12:29 PM BST
With your assessment perrydinho where does Fame and Glory rate with 'speed'?Try as I have I can absolutely find none,he has plenty of stamina not so sure about durability as to my eyes he is just 'AN'staying plod without any turn of foot.Fickle fashion as you call it is what drives the bloodstock market,his connections are very aware of this,when it comes down to it he has very little appeal for commercial breeders,Black Sam Bellamy raised a good point about a poss' future sale to Australia or perhaps his owners would consider standing him down under,he will be very hard to market up here except for the jumps game.
Report DMCK October 11, 2010 6:29 PM BST
to balance things out, Galileo hasnt proven to be a sire of sires yet. im firmy in the Galileo camp to be very frank but montjeu had a much better start to his stud career. How many sons at stud did Saddlers Wells go though until we got these 2.
While Montjue hasnt given us a son who is a "quality" sire its only a matter of time and i shall wait with tripitation on how Teofilo, NW, RVW and maybe Frankil
Report imagele October 11, 2010 6:32 PM BST
I agree - I don't think we can judge Montjeu solely on Hurricane Run and Motivator (who has had a troubled period at stud).  I am more concerned by his lack of top class fillies - his colts are streets ahead of the fillies.  But I think that it is only a matter of time before he produces a good son.  It will be interesting to see what Authorised does at stud - I preferred him to Motivator.
Report DMCK October 11, 2010 6:53 PM BST
i agree that Authorised stands a better chance  but he'll want quick mares and look where he stands..speed isnt a priority or in abundance with them.
Could his fillies suffer more from their quirks than the colts?
Report Prima Donna October 11, 2010 8:01 PM BST
I agree perhaps I have been to quick to say Montjeu has been a poor sire of sires.Montjeu had such a brilliant start with his first runners they went way beyond connections expectations,perhaps we are hoping his first stallion sons repeat his achievement.Because of having such a stamina laden pedigree and at the time Sadlers Wells' disapointing record as a sire of sires,these good sons of Montjeu are not outstandingly well bred.Those sons are now at stud,and,to date, these have been disappointing. Motivator went off to stud on a wave of enthusiasm classed as a good Derby winner,out of a mare by Gone West he held appeal and plenty of top breeders used him,including the people who stand Montjeu. His stud career has been unfortunate in it's interruptions but overall he would be considered disapointing ATM.imo he holds a slight advantage over Authorised as A' is a Darley sire that can be seen as a bit negative in the market,and then being out of a mare by Saumarez who is not as good a BM sire as Gone West, people are a bit dubious with him although I also think A' was a better racehorse than Motivator. Comparing Montjeu against Galileo as sires of stallions again comes back to the mares they each covered in their first few seasons that went on to produce those stallion sons. Montjeu was generally considered as a future jumps sire and the majority of his mares were from owner/breeders who are able to look to the longer term with their stock. Hence horses such as Hurricane Run, who has a nice stout family to add to Montjeus own stamina laden female line.(FandG fits this category too) It is little wonder HR has not been storming the first season list this year. Next year and his 3yo's may prove different, but I do remember the same being said ( by myself as well) about Motivators 2yo's. Galileo was always considered likely to be SW heir apparent and his mare book reflected this. Once more I fear that Montjeu will be judged unfavourably against Galileo through their sons own stud exploits and once more the base that Montjeu had to come from in relation to Galileo is easily forgotten.
Report perrydinho October 11, 2010 9:14 PM BST
Hi Prima, my comments on F&G speed come from his coronation cup win which was an exceptional speed figure (assuming epsom ran the race over the distance as advertised as workforce went even faster a day later) and you dont win all those stakes races being short of the sort of qualities which make good racehorses.

I totally agree that there is an abundance of stamina in his profile and similar types have been found wanting in both the ring and the winners enclosure but surely there is a place in the flat market for a sire with those strengths above the likes of Arcano, myboycharlie, Stimulation and Mullionwhateveritscalled etc

Just think its a bit of a shame but equally with a day to think about it, i could nt envisage a scenario where i would use him given the need to sellBlush
Report imagele October 11, 2010 9:29 PM BST
PD - I think your summary is spot on and much better worded than I would have done.  They have never given Montjeu the same quality mares that Galileo had and even though I  haven't studied his latest books I think he is still in G's shadow.  And I think some of the older studs with the jewel in the crown broodmare bands are turned off by his record with fillies.

I agree re: Saumerez - a big turn off for me with Authorised (and he is by Rainbow Quest ) which doesn't help.  So I haven't used Authorised but have a suspicion that he may surprise.

It is a shame that Montmartre - has been a slow learner re: stud duties - he was an explosive racehorse and I was looking forward to his offspring. But my contacts in France say that he is showing more interest in the girls now. 

At least the Montjeu's have personality - that is one thing I like about them but they can be a nightmare to handle.
Report DMCK October 11, 2010 10:14 PM BST
i would like top see more high class sprinting mares going to Montjeu along with coolmore getting more firmly behing him, they dont have too many 2year old by him this year compared to Galileo, same goes for High Chaperal who i think is highly underated. Dont think Coolmore had even 5 2year olds by him this year.

both A' and Mot were group1 racing post winners at 2 which must elivate them above Hurricane Run and at least gives some hopes to them getting 2year old runner (abet August at the earliest).

out of interest what is the average covering fee for Moutjeu
Report imagele October 11, 2010 10:30 PM BST
PD - you may know more about this than us - but it doesn't seem as though Coolmore have a plan/strategy re: their stallions.  They don't appear to think carefully about the type of mares they will accept to a young stallion like Montjeu when he first goes to stud - taking DMCK's point re: whether they actively encourage certain mares with a particular profile to go a stallion  - at different seasons etc.

I may be doing them an injustice but they appear to go for quantity rather than quality.  A stallion station rather than a well managed stud.
Report Prima Donna October 12, 2010 7:41 AM BST
imagele,When it come down to it its all about 'money'.All Coolmore stallions are open to any mare at any time if you can pay the set stud fee,Obviously the sires that are private are more flexible on price if you wanted to send mare 'dreg A' to him and you are going to pay the full amount at a sky high fee then they will take the money,if you have a very good mare and can't afford the high fee then they will deal or do a foal share to get that mare into their horse,though that deal will almost certainly involve sending your cheaper mares to their cheaper sires.
As fas as they are concerned a mare is a mare and any of them could be the one to get that sire a good horse. So in that respect they are as you say a stallion station as opposed to stallion managers. However, that said, now they know the aptitudes of the top 3 they will allocate their own mares accordingly. The main aim recently has been to get a well bred son of Galileo to stand there. The earlier successful sons they have raced have been non-commercial. RVW has a question mark over his page but the marketing machine will minimise that. Montjeu has his obv niche and gets a line of top class horses in that niche. Now he is so established at that distance/age/sex they may decide to go with the flow rather than try and turn the tide. The Boys do like Montjeu but are quite aware of his limitations and I could see him becoming a similar profile as Peintre Celebre though higher class. As in a successful sire but not red hot commercially and normally used by owner/breeders. They have kept on with PC though and I am sure they will continue to aim for top class horses from Montjeu. I would be interested to know if they had a mare that came up with top class fillies if they would send her to Montjeu to try and boost his filly record.
Report mightymoyes October 12, 2010 7:48 PM BST
out of interest does anyone know who did they send peeping fawn to?
Report imagele October 12, 2010 10:20 PM BST
Henry the Navigator on her first season - not sure what foal she had to him and don't know who she went to this year.
Report boba October 12, 2010 11:04 PM BST
not sure she had a foal by HTN. She has a 2010 filly by galileo and was covered this year by fastnet rock i believe.
Report mightymoyes October 12, 2010 11:09 PM BST
cheers, interesting choices for her.
Report wee sammy October 12, 2010 11:25 PM BST
Peeping Fawn (by Danehill) Fastnet Rock (by Danehill)I dont think so!
Report DMCK October 13, 2010 12:24 AM BST
PD- "would be interested to know if they had a mare that came up with top class fillies if they would send her to Montjeu to try and boost his filly record."

interesting that Born Gold (Goldikova's mare) has visited Galileo maybe the boys should have pushed Montjue to the brothers and given them massive discounts for alot of their broodmare band.

They print money but its not likly that Coolmore will start to limit book sizes
Report boba October 13, 2010 1:41 AM BST
Peeping Fawn (by Danehill) Fastnet Rock (by Danehill)I dont think so!

yes was peeping fawns dam that was covered
Report Tiswallaceno7 October 17, 2010 5:11 PM BST
Motivator has had a woeful start to his career. Authorized Yearling didn't sell and Hurricane Run hasn't exactly set the world alight.

Montjeu filly record is a concern and so many are so highly wired. Magnier seems reluctant to put any montjeu fillies with Aidan as well.

I think Montjeu while being a excellent stallion of Top Class racehorse's may not be a stallion maker (so to speak) unless you want 1m4f plus
Report neill d October 23, 2010 5:54 PM BST
AOB said both Fame and Glory and Cape Blanco remain in training next year and neither will be going to the Breeders Cup.
Report Prima Donna October 23, 2010 6:45 PM BST
That's no surprise as who would want to use Fame and Glory,he has no commercial appeal.With Rip Van Winkle retired Cape Blanco would be in direct competition so keeping him in training they will have a new Galileo horse retiring next year,Rip's reputation would be tarnished if he gets stuffed in the US,imo the only route they have with Fame and Glory is to make him into an expensive jump stallion rather like they have done with Yeats.
Report neill d October 23, 2010 6:48 PM BST
You called his limitations from a long way out in fairness Prima. I remember they tried a 5yo career with SOF aswell........ is F&G SOF reincarnated. Irish ledger instead of Arc next yearLaugh
Report neill d October 23, 2010 6:50 PM BST
Seriously, Maybe a Japan Cup as the pace will be lightning, though so will the ground, but he handled it in the Coronation, thats a long time away for an entire though.
Report Prima Donna October 23, 2010 7:04 PM BST
I could see him taking on the Ascot Gold Cup next June then poss' the King George and as you say neill d the Irish St.Leger,lots of jump breeders will want him they love his sort flat breeders wouldn't touch him with a barge pole.
Report neill d October 23, 2010 7:13 PM BST
It would be great to see a horse lining up in the Ascot Gold cup and King George, the publicity and goodwill Coolmore received during the Yeats years could be revisited, hopefully they don't gear next season around the Arc again anyway as there really isn't much point.
Report neill d October 23, 2010 7:13 PM BST
Don't think he has Yeat's presence though
Report neill d October 23, 2010 7:13 PM BST
sorry Yeats' I thinkLaugh
Report Prima Donna October 23, 2010 7:22 PM BST
I agree niell d.
Report Tiswallaceno7 October 23, 2010 8:04 PM BST
I think they are going down the Staying route now imo. Very few Coolmore horse's go to 5 yr olds and tbh if they keep Jan Vermeer/St Nicholas Abbey and Cape Blanco on as 4 yr olds that means Fame and Glory has to be going down the Yeats Route especially since Age of Aquarius got injured
Report potentialmillionaire October 23, 2010 8:29 PM BST
The only problem being that Jan Vermeer / St N A may too be a great fit for the Yeats routine. Come summer F and G might still be their best shot at salvaging a stallion out of that little lot. I imagine they will have to leave it until spring to take a view.
If he can 'become' brilliant next year then maybe there's an outside shot. . . (100/1 say !)
Report RipVanWinkle October 23, 2010 8:44 PM BST
They can retire Cape Blanco anytime they want he'll still get a big book but for the other ones they have alot to prove. I believe that SNA will still hold some ability come next year but he'll find it very hard to become commercial especially being by montjeu whos sons at stud havent been great so far
Report neill d October 23, 2010 9:19 PM BST
Jan Vermeer didn't even seem to get a mile and a half this year, He's a shell of a horse though and should get better.
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