Bloodstock & Breeding
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After the win of Air Chief Marshal today I wondered about his stud credentials. Where do you think he would be likely to stand? And for how much?
The early sons to go to stud by DD have been largely disappointing. But taken in context of their modest pedigrees due to the low fee DD was covering at in the early days this is not surprising. It is one thing for a sire to pull a mare up by the bootstraps but to do the same via his cheap sons and the level of mares they come from is another thing entirely.
ACM is from a better level of mare and should hold appeal as a cheaper son of DD but with the potential of getting decent horses by virtue of his better class pedigree. His dam has produced 3 blacktype horses and 6 winners from 6 runners and 6 foals. Her dam was 4 from 4. Blacktype all through the page. ACM is a full brother to Misu Bond, conqueror of Jeremy, another DD son and another from a higher class pedigree. The DD sons do get a nice type of stock, very typical of their sire. We have some DD foals and a superb yearling colt by him, and we have also had our Misu Bond foal over with us this summer. It is indistinguishable from the DD's. During the time it was with us, we had a well known Bloodstock Figure come to lunch and of course we had a look round the foals. He was particularly taken with the Misu Bond foal and was flabbergasted that it was by such a cheap 'unknown'. He thought it was a DD.
I was at the Curragh today and I have seen ACM before, he is a nice looking horse. I would be interested in sending him a mare and would probably send the dam of the Misu Bond to him. If she gets another foal as nice (and a colt this time!) added to the fact that ACM should be more commercial than MB and as a first season horse hold more appeal it is like getting a repeat mating for a nice individual but without the stigma of a 4th season horse/small book size and full sibling dilemma.
With cheaper sires getting the best runners this year, perhaps cheaper is the way to go in the search for value?
The early sons to go to stud by DD have been largely disappointing. But taken in context of their modest pedigrees due to the low fee DD was covering at in the early days this is not surprising. It is one thing for a sire to pull a mare up by the bootstraps but to do the same via his cheap sons and the level of mares they come from is another thing entirely.
ACM is from a better level of mare and should hold appeal as a cheaper son of DD but with the potential of getting decent horses by virtue of his better class pedigree. His dam has produced 3 blacktype horses and 6 winners from 6 runners and 6 foals. Her dam was 4 from 4. Blacktype all through the page. ACM is a full brother to Misu Bond, conqueror of Jeremy, another DD son and another from a higher class pedigree. The DD sons do get a nice type of stock, very typical of their sire. We have some DD foals and a superb yearling colt by him, and we have also had our Misu Bond foal over with us this summer. It is indistinguishable from the DD's. During the time it was with us, we had a well known Bloodstock Figure come to lunch and of course we had a look round the foals. He was particularly taken with the Misu Bond foal and was flabbergasted that it was by such a cheap 'unknown'. He thought it was a DD.
I was at the Curragh today and I have seen ACM before, he is a nice looking horse. I would be interested in sending him a mare and would probably send the dam of the Misu Bond to him. If she gets another foal as nice (and a colt this time!) added to the fact that ACM should be more commercial than MB and as a first season horse hold more appeal it is like getting a repeat mating for a nice individual but without the stigma of a 4th season horse/small book size and full sibling dilemma.
With cheaper sires getting the best runners this year, perhaps cheaper is the way to go in the search for value?
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I know he was second in the Phoenix and won his group 3 nicely today but this horse is not a horse that would really scream out to me. He needs to win at least another group 3 or a group 2 to be anyway commercial. I know he has achieved more than his brother misu bond but is it really enough to just win a group 3. Comes from a nice family though, PD do you like to have Dancing Brave in pedigrees alot.
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Rip van, Those are valid points about ACM but with the target now being a Gr 2 he does need to be monitored. He seems to have been very much on the back burner at Ballydoyle but with their current lack of any star horse perhaps they are willing to give some percieved 'lesser lights' a bit more of a chance? ACM main competitor has always been Alfred Nobel, both sons of DD, both with decent pedigrees, AN perhaps slightly higher class,ACM perhaps speedier and more precocious. AN seems to have fallen a bit in a hep and so ACM can be given a bit more exposure. Both are on the watch list atm.AN is one of the reasons I was not so sure about where ACM would retire to (if indeed he does) with such similar profiles they would surely be aimed at the same mare market and then location comes into play.I could see AN at Tally Ho, but ACM?????
As for Dancing Brave, it is not so much that I look for him in a pedigree, more that he seems to crop up in pedigrees I like! It is amazing thing that DB has gone down as a bit of a flop as a sire yet if you look at pedigrees of some very good horses his name appears.DB although he stayed 12f does seem to be an influence of speed imo. For example Zenda [;)](miler) Majestic Missile (sprinter) Captain Gerard (speedy 2yo) ACM/Misu Bond (6/7f horses) Primo Valentino (precocious 2yo) It is not really a huge surprise though, although a 'flop' the level of mares he covered when he was in NMKT must surely throw something up at some point. Do you like him Rip Van? Did you ever see him? |
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Surely ACM's commercial appeal will depend on the results of MB's progeny. As a racehorse he is no better than MB. His second to Alfred Nobel was the worst G1 seen in many a year. Today's G3 was also substandard. He is a fair listed performer at best but you could see him win an end of season poor heavy ground group race. He is a 3k stallion at best but probably will be pitched in at 5k.
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I like to see Dancing Brave in a pedigree as it is nowadays seen as an outcross. No never saw him PD i'm not as old as you are
 (although you wouldn't have to be that old to have saw him) i should think my father saw him a couple of times alright he never said much about him though,I've saw my fair share of stallions around the world though but my favourite still has to be Sadlers Wells might not be original but when you go to Coolmore and see him looking over the gate and running away when someone comes to catch him is always great. Dancing Brave seems to be good to have in a pedigree, maybe like other breeds they say an eight of some stallions is enough maybe thats the case worked with Oasis Dream i think anyways.I think Tally-Ho should forget Alfred Nobel and look for a miler because they already have Bushranger. Maybe one of Hannon's milers ??? ACM is not one i'm going to send one to but my view is i wouldn't get to caught up in the nice Misu Bond foals because i've saw alot of foals by DD and his sons that are always smashers and turn out to be nothing, hope i'm wrong with your Misu Bond foal, actually do you remember when Choisir had his first foals there was alot of talk about them and nothing really developed from them. |
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Dancing Brave is one of those charismatic horses that we remember and will never forget.I don't know if I have a favourite I too have seen plenty of them a few stick in my mind,always liked Blakeney,Grundy and Kahyasi,you can see the type I like,(and my age).
I did wonder about one of Hannon's going to Tally Ho,Last time I saw Tony he said he wanted a new sire poss'2,and take into account who they are connected to that's why I was thinking about A.Nobel,I have just re read my post and listing Captain Gerrard his connection with Dancing Brave is via Oasis Dream,not in his dam's pedigree. Sure I remember the hype with Choisir,he's not set the world on fire but he's not done too badly.I'm not getting caught up with the M.Bond foal but you know sometimes when you can't stop looking at a particular foal she has so much 'class' and just in a way stands out, M.Bond does 'stamp' his stock,I hope ACM does go on with a classy page behind him, great looking colt I could see him join the commercial rank's (just)I will keep my eyes peeled! |
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I am afraid that I have just had to look A.C.M up.
It is greatly to Danehill Dancers credit that he is able to spit these horses out in his sleep (particularly with a bit of cut) but to be honest another Aiden Gp3/2er just merges into the last one! I know, I know it probably says much about me, but I suspect that I am not the only thicko out there (think trainer/agent) who will struggle to get a handle on his type come sales time. Steering clear at the present. I am not sure that my definitive racing memory isn't Dancing Brave cutting down Bering at Longchamp, even allowing for the partisan camera work! So that gives you some clue as to my age, but I am afraid PD that you are on your own with the Blakeney memories!! I am no disliker of him in a pedigree but he probably had the greatest mares of his generation and was despatched so early that his mates didn't get to deteriorate like so many others. I think that is probably what keeps him to the fore. He was definitively an influence for stamina, where he had any influence, but that is the problem - not much influence where it matters I'm afraid! -------------- Zenda (miler) Majestic Missile (sprinter) ACM/Misu Bond (6/7f horses) Primo Valentino (precocious 2yo)[/i] The above are ofcourse totally the distance aptitudes expressed by their sires and just prove how Dancing Brave had no influence there either surely PD? |
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Pot M, My memories of Blakeney are that he was a really good looking horse. He was a good racehorse but not a great and his stock were generally good looking too. I always maintain that the best looking horse I have ever seen was Julio Mariner, a son of Blakeney. Julio Mariner, I remember looking at him at the Houghton in 1976, couldn't fault him. He topped the sale.Grundy was a similar type to Blakeney.
Probably you are right about Dancing Brave, but he was such a good racehorse that I find it hard to entirely dismiss him and any possible influence!Saying that we used him and got a very moderate runner. As for ACM I can see what you are saying about the number of second level APOB horses at stud. But I would hope that an Agent did some sort of research for his money! ACM is from a speedy family, and is by DD. He was twice Gr 1 placed at 2yo. He is a nice looking type who if he takes after his brother will get nice looking foals. There is not a great deal more to need to get a handle on. After all Monsieur Bond,Indesatchel,Where Or When, had limited pedigrees and not top level form either. Chevalier for example, not quite good enough for Coolmore but perfectly acceptable as a cheaper sire and with a good pedigree. There was money to made on his stock. We are not talking about finding the next big thing, we are talking about finding value for low fees for a return in the sale ring. |
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I'm always looking for that PD !
I think it's perhaps a national thing and ofcourse it's perfectly reasonable for you to have more of a handle on what's going on with the Irish form than I do. I think that I perhaps need more of an English form element to quicken the pulse perhaps, maybe in these cases Aidan's horses are a victim of the yards success. A smaller yard would perversely probably get a more public profile for such a horse, instead the journo's are perhaps a bit 'whateva' when the latest Gp 2/3er rolls of the Coolmore production line! Mind you, a first crop of uniform great looking foals certainly concentrates the mind does it not. I love to hear your sales anecdotes and ofcourse appreciate that you were attending Julio Mariner's sale in the comfort of your pram  . I have a similar memory of Desert Sun being a lovely strong type from Green Desert's 1st crop. I still stick with that, but as a very slow learner I look back at some of the horses I thought were nice with a certain level of embarressment |
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I love to hear your sales anecdotes and ofcourse appreciate that you were attending Julio Mariner's sale in the comfort of your pram .
Pot'M, I have lots of sales anecdotes, but unfortunately the majority of them couldn't be repeated here, some are rude and most are libellous!! Sadly I was on my own two feet at Julio Mariner's sale and had been attending for a few years prior to that as well  But I thank you for the compliment Pot M! |
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There's a BBC documentary from 1987 ; Arena - "The English Thoroughbred", and it features Guy Harwood walking Dancing Brave back and forth...Dancing Brave is exhibited as the ideal, the perfect horse, and it's sort of strange - a bit stilted - as Guy Harwood provides a formal commentary that wouldn't have sounded out of place in the 19th Century. A very uncomfortable Henry and Julie Cecil are also featured in the film, seated in their garden, discussing the thoroughbred, but that's another story...
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I can imagine Guy Harwood sounding like some 19th century legendary trainer,he imo has ALWAYS been one of the most arrogant people I've ever met,but he did handle Dancing Brave to perfection.
I think I saw the program you are talking about a few years ago,is that the one where they interviewed Sheik Mo' holding Oh So Sharp?The Cecils were sitting in the famous rose garden,the person asking the questions was useless in so much as asking the most obvious questions. Dancing Brave was indeed 'the perfect horse'on the course,but as is well know not in terms of conformation.I looked at him back in 1987 at Dalham Hall and decided to send him a good mare at vast expense,the resulting foal was nice but only a poor runner. I also remember his groom showing us the horse was very impressed with him,telling us proudly he was worth £24.000,000 sterling........a massive amount of money even by today's standards,that guy is none other than Tolly Consadine,who does all the flowers for the Darley functions. |
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You have a good memory, Prima Donna. That's right - Sheikh Mohammed and Oh So Sharp. I suppose it was a very basic type of programme as it was aimed at the general public...it was part of the BBC "arts" output.
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Looked to me like his is GR3 horse BUT needs more cut than yesterday!Unlike his full bro' Misu Bond who liked it firm,super looking colt though,perhaps I will have to think again as I don't like soft ground horses.
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Prima Donna 18 Jul 10 21:45
Pot M, My memories of Blakeney are that he was a really good looking horse. He was a good racehorse but not a great and his stock were generally good looking too. I always maintain that the best looking horse I have ever seen was Julio Mariner, a son of Blakeney. Julio Mariner, I remember looking at him at the Houghton in 1976, couldn't fault him. He topped the sale.Grundy was a similar type to Blakeney. Probably you are right about Dancing Brave, but he was such a good racehorse that I find it hard to entirely dismiss him and any possible influence!Saying that we used him and got a very moderate runner. As for ACM I can see what you are saying about the number of second level APOB horses at stud. But I would hope that an Agent did some sort of research for his money! ACM is from a speedy family, and is by DD. He was twice Gr 1 placed at 2yo. He is a nice looking type who if he takes after his brother will get nice looking foals. There is not a great deal more to need to get a handle on. After all Monsieur Bond,Indesatchel,Where Or When, had limited pedigrees and not top level form either. Chevalier for example, not quite good enough for Coolmore but perfectly acceptable as a cheaper sire and with a good pedigree. There was money to made on his stock. We are not talking about finding the next big thing, we are talking about finding value for low fees for a return in the sale ring. Misu Bond's first crop yearlings went through the Doncaster sale ring today,3x colts a £40k, one for £25k another for £19k, looks real value at a very modest fee,and really good looking sorts who will be fast and early. |