Bloodstock & Breeding
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Just read that he's been put down. Sad news 
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I agree it is sad news to lose one of the few quality sires of stayers. There are times of the year when you can bet blind on Singspiel maiden 3yo's at 10 furlongs plus.
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very sad news.
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Very sad news, a fantastic advert for older horses in training. From a breeding perspective does the untimely death of a stallion create a new demand for its offspring or broodmares?
Just a thought. |
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I dont think his progeny will sell any better
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I doubt there will be a demand for Singspiel anymore now than the last couple of years,he might have a chance of a BM sire as he has covered plenty of good mares,but imo overall he has been very disappointing, especially for a stallion once standing for 50k.
For me Singspiel and commercial never go together,as time has shown us he was a sire with plenty of stamina,the market wants faster or better sires than him,but its always sad to hear of any horse having to put down,esp' such a good racehorse as poor Singspiel. |
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Yes he did stand oncefor £50k, once.
The rest of the time he stood at considerably less. I would agree to differ if you described him as a slightly disappointing sire, but he was not a very disappointing sire quite the contrary in my opinion and most statistical facts back that up. He was however a difficult sire for the marketplace but I know you wouldn't let that colour your opinions as to his actual merits, would you PD  As the sire of the worlds most valuable filly at least, he must have plenty of admirers as a broodmare sire, especially being incredibly well bred himself. I would have thought it wouldn't be too difficult to introduce speed to the mix as there is so much class in the Glorious Song tribe. He always seemed a civilised type at Dalham Hall and I'm sure he will leave a large hole there, and I shall miss the opportunity to spar with PD on here as well  |
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Shall I assume you used him then Pot'M? We idiotically used him on his 50k year and produced a rat!The resulting foal looked more like a My Little Pony than a racehorse. I am not taking anything off what you are saying, but rememeber that Dar Re Mi is out of an outstanding mare from an outstanding family. You could say DRM is a good mare despite Singspiel.....
but we won't go down that road! |
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produced a rat
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He isn't the sire of the most valuable filly
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Who'd you bid more for then Rip Van? - don't worry I won't wave my catalogue and take you on!
Never used him, but got mighty close on occasion and despite my admiration for the horse, your posts help me to not regret that decision[;)] |
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Still in training - Goldikova, Zenyatta
Recently Retired - Vodka, Zarkava All would generate much more buzz with their first foal and all are much better racehorses. |
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A superb all quality mare with pedigree will always outsell the big ugly Zenyatta's of this world even with considerably less ability.
When you've won 2+ Gp1's it'll be down to paperwork and the beauty parade. Not qualified to comment on Vodka ( I know I know, when's that ever stopped me) but both she and Zarkava are not fillies for the purpose of this fantasy thread! I suppose I wouldn't kick Goldikova out of my paddock though. . . |
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To some people Zenyatta is one of the best horses ever, and if she took the Breeders Cup on dirt this year the hysteria around her first couple of foals would far outsell anything Dar Re Mi could produce early doors. The same would apply to Vodka in Japan. Dar Re Mi may well get better looking/quality foals but she could also get very slow ones.
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I think I am closer to you on the relative values of them as fillies in training. Ego's would love to see fillies of their stature in their paddocks at home.
Those ego's won't pay for their crooked ugly 1st foals though, whomever they are out of. That's why I think that the better chance the superfilly stands of delivering the stunning foal (i.e. beauty 1st) will be what dictates the out of training premium to be attached. |
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Your guessing big time that Goldikova will get worse looking foals than Dar Re Mi (I'll let you have Zenyatta but I like Vodka a lot).
We'll never know which one's will sell better because I can see the owners keeping them (particularly the Wertheimers) but if both produce standard looking foals and they go to the sales I know which would prove more popular among owners, any other comparison is merely guesswork. |
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Happy to drop the ramp when Goldie arrives, and..
I am indeed guessing big time! I like to think it is informed guesswork, mind. Others may think it is merely informed b*llocks |
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Haha, we're all entitled to our views, she's never wowed me but plenty hold her in high affection and hopefully she gets one or two good ones.
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Just my opinion looking at the mares from your list I'd say if all of them had a nice colt at Tatt's Dec' sale my guess is,Top price would be Zarkava's because as well as being brilliant she is the best looking of all of them 2,and a close second Golikova nice but plainish to look at, 3 Zenyatta big, but plenty of appeal being by Street Cry 4,Vodka, foal then off the the land of the rising sun,Dar Re Mi,would maybe be held a touch with the late Singspiel,she though has a good family behind her,but very stout not so sure she would get faster sorts, if she was mine she would be off to Oasis Dream or take a chance with Ravens Pass,I'd steer clear of the two big Coolmore sires,unless I wanted to breed the Gold Cup winner!
I would love to own both Zarkava and Goldikova I'd sell all the others. |
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PD I know you have great faith in Gone West, but I'm a long way from sure that he will guarantee speed for Zarkava's offspring. She stayed 12f standing on her head at 3 and The Aga's system may still get you to Cheltenham too.
Should we have a sidebet - 'your' mare or 'mine' 1st to breed a Triumph winner? |
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Pot M,I reckon Zarkava is the real deal,she was brilliant at 2 and over a mile then 10f then 12f a true champion, but I don't think her Dalakhani will be fast at all, so that may win at Cheltenham maybe the triumph,or the stayers!
I can't really see that happening though. Dar Re Mi is also the type I'd be careful with her coverings,as imo she is too stout for my liking,if any of them will get a plod for my money its her.But yes I'll have a side bet with you! |
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Good. I reckon you're nailed on as I'm not sure Dar Re Mi's will be sound enough!!
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I'm a big fan of Gone West we have a mare by him that has done well with Danzig line stallions and is foal to a son of Danehill this year and has a grandson of Danehill by her side.
I'm not the biggest fan of Dalakhani myself but believe he could be an outstanding broodmare sire. |
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Rip Van,Is your mare in-foal to Dylan Thomas by any chance or is her foal by him and she is in-foal to the Duke?Like you I think Dalakhani holds a lot of potential as a BM sire,he has covered good mares,I'm not so sure they would be the fastest sorts though,but the Agas sires generally make great BM sires I like Kahyasi the best,great with Danehill or sons of his,thats one thing I like about Zarkava.
Pot M, how much! |
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The foal is by Dylan Thomas and she's in foal to Oratorio i've gone off The Duke after being offered a mare in foal to him i done alot of research into him then and he didn't really appeal to me. We were going to send her to Holy Roman Emperor and see what inbreeding to Secretariat would be like with the mare but decided to send a different mare to him. There does be great deals on Oratorio even though he is held in high regard at Coolmore. I dont plan on spending big on this mare next year hopefully one of her progeny will sell her foals. Any thoughts i'll just say her dams pedigree isn't related to many stallions in Europe
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I nearly used D of M this season, but on a more staying light type of mare. The more I think about it the more I wonder what the hell I was thinking of. I quite liked him in a plain kind of way, but you really would want to try him with a strongish type wouldn't you as there is enough daylight there already.
No problems with pedigree though! You're a lucky chap Rip Van, the list of stallions that don't fit Gone West would be much smaller than the list of those that do. I think Gone West - and I worked with him before he had runners! - was really true to Mr P in type and I don't think HRE owes much to Secretariat either so I think if you'd gone down that route you'd have been unlikely to dredge up any influence of Big Red atall. (No bad thing, perhaps) |
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Did the Aga Khan sell Darara...?
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I think he did if I can remember right Watershipdown got her.
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Well I suppose the next question is.......WHY????
I presume he didn't need the money...so I do hope he wasn't trying to be clever... |
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Darara was bred and raced by the Aga Khan to win the Prix Vermeille and was in 1994 purchased at auction for Ir470,000gns by Charlie Gordon-Watson for Watership Down.
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It was cheap then...and it's cheap NOW!
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Did she run in Dancing Brave's Arc...?
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was 6th in one of the hottest arcs ever if i recall.
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Yes!
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Awesome race. "That's what it's all about", says the man who did his conkers on Bering.
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Apparently, and I heard this recently and authoritatively, the decision to sell was a commercial one. The Aga's operation was not firing on all cylindars at the time and they were looking to raise a few quids so Darara got it.
I think historically they have always liked to subsidise the operation with their culls and I suppose at the time their stock wasn't as desirable as it is at other times. |
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Shawanda was sold which happened at a time when Aga Khan wasn't struggling
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Prima Donna 04 Jul 10 20:29
I doubt there will be a demand for Singspiel anymore now than the last couple of years,he might have a chance of a BM sire as he has covered plenty of good mares. Looks like that might be the case as Libranno's dam is by Singspeil,I must say that his sire Librettist is one I did not think would be any good but it looks like he might be alright,a son of Danzig but from a family that seems to only produce disappointing sire's. Darley may give him a chance unlike Noverre who's sale to India now seems a loss to breeder's. |
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I think everyone thought that they'd been a bit hasty with Noverre didn't they PD. He was a solid little sire and the Rahy influence I thought was useful to have around.
After watching the July stakes I immediately wondered what you had thought of Librettist! I used - and was duly shafted by - Agnes World when he first came back so I was wary of Librettist and a trip to see him didn't change my opinion. I would have liked him to be more like Danzig (though god knows why, it didn't help A.W.!) but I just thought he looked like the late maturer he was. Now ofcourse there is no massive surprise that he has started so promisingly and I like the fact that they look to be improving types not necessarily brocklesby horses which augers well for him being prepotent. Simmilarities to Cape Cross? (long way to go  ) |
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Pot M,yeah i'd say that is a long way to go aswell,saying that though I do think CC is a good sire but perhaps not a superstar,is he really such a great sire?
Some breeder freinds in England used Librettist against our advice as like you our doubts about him being any good due to none of his family had been successful as sires the foal was a nice strong early looking sort (unlike librettist)it has won at 2,so now this stallion may buck the trend and be a useful sire,like you that colt today does look the sort to go on and hopefully get his sire on the map. |