Bloodstock & Breeding
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If I was a UK tv licence fee payer I would demand a refund. Can the BBC not find somebody who actually knows something about breeding? He was just going on about Barathea being an influence for stamina- when Claire tried to interrupt that Barathea was a miler and bred accordingly Willie was insistent that he is an influence for stamina. His average winning distance is 9 furlongs but it is still pushing it to call him an influence for stamina. No doubt plenty of more instances of his less than insightful analysis to come...
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I was straight to the tables too, questioning my perception of the sire but surprise surprise Willie was a little wide of the mark.
By and large I stomach Carson as one has to stomach all the BBC reporters with the exception of La Balding. I know she is good but even she can't carry the fat and the gormless crew constantly. Just occasionally Carson does drop a little nugget as he has to have some accumulated knowledge given his background, but I feel 'maturity' is making them rarer and rarer! |
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I was also baffled by Willie's comment. True, Barathea is by Sadlers Wells out of a Group 1 mare by Habitat so there is a bit of stamina potential but his progeny by and large are small, a bit fragile and best at around a mile. At the time that he went to Stud, I thought him the best pedigree in the world but his results have been very disappointing.
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I was suprised as He should know what he is talking about. he does have his own stud and has bred some decent horses including Leger winner, Minster Son.
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I'm going to stand up for Willie Carson on this one,yes Barathea was a miler and a fast one too,but he can be a influence for stamina a lot of his are not so early as well,people seem only to see that Barathea was a miler but take a closer look,I agree with sageform he was very disappointing overall.
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Barathea, to date (R.P) winners
5-6f 82 7-9f 327 10-11f 120 12-13f 57 14 32 Does that make him a definitive influence for stamina? I'd have thought not. Sure he can do it, but he'd have covered a lot of stout mares so I think the mare would probably have most say. I wouldn't mind a Barathea mare though, that's where his legacy lies. |
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And, Willie was a stroppy wee git on the matter - to him it was FACT - to me it ain't!
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trainers wont touch barathea colts at the moment . can anyone say what their biggest failing is apart from not being precocious because he seems to have got good colts in the past.
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he does have his own stud and has bred some decent horses including Leger winner, Minster Son.
That was about 30 years ago |
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i was a bit surprised with carsons comments about barathea being an influence for stamina but i do believe he has a fair idea what he is on about when it comes to pedigrees.
so ill maybe give him the benefit of the doubt. |
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which horse was he talking about?
If the horse is out of a sprinter and/or by a sprinter then he may have a point, if not then he doesn't |
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"If the horse is out of a sprinter and/or by a sprinter then he may have a point, if not then he doesn't"
How does this affect the influence of Barathea or any other sire for that matter? |
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Red Knight. I'm afraid that when a stallion has been around as long as Barathea, well unless said horse is a superstar, fashion and trend has a ridiculous bearing on commerciality.
By this time all the trainers will have trained a slow one and unless there are plenty of fast ones around to prove otherwise, then as far as the trainers and agents are concerned they are all slow/mad/unsound (delete as appropriate) depending on their own usually very limited experience. In fairness to the fickle bunch, the trainers are a very busy crowd and they aren't going to spend their time buried in statistical research. However not following the young/unproven herd would give their owners a better shot and push their name higher up the tables. |
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Barathea's sister Gossamer was a good filly at a mile but she has shown that she can also get them that want a trip,her star son Ibn Khaldoun won over a mile at 2,and as he Barathea is a son of Sadlers Wells I reckon thats where he gets his stamina from and as a rule a lot of his do improve with age,I don't know but he would imo be used with caution on mares,a good horse but only okay as a sire.
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Do they improve with age? Show me some that have. You might cite a Triumph Hurdle winner but that didn't do much subsequently. Seta is a close relative as Bombazine, her mother, was a sister to Barathea and Gossamer. Seta might get a mile as she learns more about the game but no further.
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Bombazine, her mother, was a sister to Barathea and Gossamer. Seta might get a mile as she learns more about the game but no further
Well that only underlines my thought as to where the stamina comes from as I'm sure you know Seta is by Pivotal,who was a fast horse who also gets fast horses,as for improving with age well perhaps they don't but most want at the very least a mile+ a lot stay beyond that. You may not agree with Willie Carson's point about being a influence for stamina but imo he was right to take that veiw,one more point Tobougg is now standing as a jump sire.........wonder why? |
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Hood - the horse in question is Monterosso.
Maybe he doesn't see out 12f and just didn't have a lot to beat at Ascot? The time wasn't amazing compared to the other round course times that day so you could say they didn't go that quick also. Do think people misread Dubawi anyway, gets some good horses for 10f from what I've seen and they also go well on decent ground. |
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Thanks Ben but I've seen the clip now and I think Carson is simply confusing Barathea with another horse
Carson: Barathea is an influence for stamina Balding: But didn't he win the Breeders' Cup Mile? Carson: No, he's a stayer Later he corrects himself |
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Am I the only one that actually checks any figures here?
Of the 618 winners (surely a pretty comprehensive study group) above, 66% are at below 9 furlongs. Mr Carson was adamant - to the point of rudeness - that Barathea was definitively an influence for stamina. He isn't. Only 14% of his winners were successful at 12f plus (Galileo is 33%) To allow myself a go with little of the guess work that Mr Carson and others enjoy, I would suspect that particularly at the beginning he probably attracted more than the average ammount of owner breeder mares which would have upped his stamina getting chances slightly too. I think that Barathea probably follows his mates requirements for stamina and is well capable of getting stamina laden stock, but I wouldn't trust him to do it on his own - mind you I wouldn't trust him for much really except maybe, inconsistency! |
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Did he stay there then?
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Genuine question there, was hard for me to call, looked like he was but Johnston horses are tough as nails and then he didn't have enough in the proper finish.
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thanks for the info on barathea PoT. i guess that applies to all older stallions and makes sense for trainers who have not got the time to look at everything.however i,m baffled how ,even after getting really top class horses stallions are not in demand at the sales and 1st year stallions are red hot.i suppose it keeps the whole industry moving when theres constant change
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Baffling indeed. I suppose it's human nature to always be after the next big thing, be it pop stars or restaurant openings!
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Same reason that unraced bumper horses or yearlings make more than 110 rated handicap chasers or 80 rated milers even though half of the former will never win a race. Everyone is dreaming of a top class horse when buying so they don't want a known quantity unless they are willing to shell out 7 figure sums.
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Ive always thought of Barathea as a decent broodmare sire, definitely more so than an influence of stamina.
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carson should have some knowledge from his lifetime in the job top jock, breeder and all that, but seems clueless in everything pete walwyn who knows a thing or two about racing detests him nuff said
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pete walwyn who knows a thing or two about racing detests him nuff said
I'm sure plenty of people 'detest' Peter Walwyn,Willie Carson can come across as chippy,more than likely due to his size and coming from Scotland,the fact that you claim certain people detest him is irrelevant, imo he is knowledgeable and is a good breeder,I agree with his comment about Barathea. |
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With you there Prima, there's very little black & white in this game, seems a bit silly to pitch Walwyn against Carson! (just as Barathea is not a definite source of stamina!)
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Stotsfold and Barsheba have disproved another of my suspicions of Barathea-that they don't improve with age!
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