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RipVanWinkle
13 Jun 10 18:19
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Date Joined: 18 Nov 08
| Topic/replies: 588 | Blogger: RipVanWinkle's blog
Good Day for him today. He's like the Rock worse actually, the expectations that were on this horse when he retired were unreal. Maybe his progeny need time, his two winners today were out of Darshaan mares maybe thats a clue to his success
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Report potentialmillionaire June 13, 2010 6:59 PM BST
Sadlers Wells milers, it's been carnage hasn't it! Barathea has not been as good as he might though not a TOTAL disaster, but King of Kings and Entrepreneur, well it makes you shudder. R to B is a positive wonder sire compared to them!
Report Prima Donna June 13, 2010 7:54 PM BST
Those are good points,perhaps its just me but I reckon a factor in him overall being a flop is down to that great stallion graveyard maker Darley,a bit like Kings Best, mares from stamina laden family's that will always slow the stock down.
But saying that GNS winners by SW have as you point out been very disappointing,I did hear he was available at around3/4k this year,think though he's had it really.
Report potentialmillionaire June 13, 2010 8:15 PM BST
Interesting, but at the risk of overlapping on previous posts, I think that R to B was well supported by a good cross section of breeders, commercial and private which I would've thought should have been good enough.
Do you think that a stud's own mares, if dodgy, should really hold them back given that there will still be 100 outside mares in any of todays massive books?
I believe Whitsbury didn't find it easy this year (no big surprise) but as an independent I would have wished them these results in October or April/May!
Report Prima Donna June 13, 2010 8:48 PM BST
Do you think that a stud's own mares, if dodgy, should really hold them back given that there will still be 100 outside mares in any of todays massive books?

It is not just the fact of the studs own 'dodgy' mares going to him. It is what the stud itself represents. An outside breeder using the horse has to rely on other outside breeders' mares coming up with the goods, as the stud itself won't manage it with poor mating choices. That is where the biggest gamble comes in and a point which is illustrated on my reply on the Rock Of Gibraltar thread re Champs Elysees, being at Juddmonte is huge plus for a new sire. They make intelligent mating decisions and send good mares to their new sires which give them the best chances of getting a good horse. When buyers look at yearlings they know this and feel that the sire has good chance. This is esp helpful on 2nd or 3rd crop horses, when you can feel that every help will have been given to get him off the ground. Take that away and you have the 'Darley Factor', doubt creeps in and it is a vicious, self fulfilling prophecy.

I believe Whitsbury didn't find it easy this year (no big surprise) but as an independent I would have wished them these results in October or April/May!

Funnily enough I personally heard Charlie Oakshot talking about RTB  early last year,where he was describing the horse as "a load of c r a p". This of course was BEFORE it was arranged that he was moving to Whitsbury!!! I expect he takes a different line now...............Grin
Report potentialmillionaire June 13, 2010 10:21 PM BST
Now, if we needed reminding about what we say coming back to bite us on the bum, we don't any more. Amusing indeed.
Well I'm not using Darley horses this year for one reason or another so I've got 6 months or so to muse over your interesting points!
Report JSB June 14, 2010 1:49 PM BST
Funny thread here from the experts who are not biased at all.The Darley graveyard has produced the following so far this year.French 1000 gns,2000 gns,French oaks and derby winners.The English 2000gns and derby.I am not an expert but that is not bad from a stallion graveyard maker.
Report yer ma June 14, 2010 3:31 PM BST
PDs point about the stallions 'home' is entirely valid and the swaying factor for one of mine having a Beat Hollow rather the RtB. Maybe not such a good decision now..
Report potentialmillionaire June 14, 2010 3:35 PM BST
Apologies, JSB but I am not Anti Darley particularly. I have two Darley sired foals at home I just happen to not be using them this year for one reason or another. Plenty has been written elsewhere in support of Shamardal, Dubawi, Cape Cross etc. with which I wholly agree . To coin another thread, maybe the tide IS turning? In view of their investment mind, it ought to. . .
I'll argue in their favour if I see just cause and if and when I'll join you as an ally if I may!
Report potentialmillionaire June 14, 2010 3:43 PM BST
Yer ma, their but for the grace. . .
Beat Hollow is up and down like a tart's draws is he not?
And sadly more downs than ups right now. I applied for one in his hottest year and was too late so perhaps that was one of my 9 lives. . However I wish you an 'UP' when your turn comes to make your play with your offspring!
Report JSB June 14, 2010 3:50 PM BST
I am a fan of Darley for different reasons but get sick of hearing about the blue bin and the Darley graveyard.If people want to compare APOB has as big a bin for his 2yos and there isn't a word.AP is a master trainer but they are not all machines there no more than anywhere else.Also Coolmore has stallions that do not work out.
Report yer ma June 14, 2010 3:58 PM BST
PotM I am led to believe Henry has a few nice 2yos and a few are winning up so hope springs eternal. That said I may be looking at winning the triumph hurdle in a few years
Report potentialmillionaire June 14, 2010 4:07 PM BST
JSB, I think you are right about the Ballydoyle bin, there is nowhere I would like my ownbred to land up in less. It's mighty rosy if you are identified as a stallion prospect, but the rest get landed as pacemakers and your page will get no enhancement even though you may have bred something useful.
That said, I've got a 3yo at Godolphin on Hamilton Rd, so who knows what's going to come of that! (I sold as a foal incidentally, they bought as a breezer so I remain 'Potential'!)
Ballydoyle are so successful with their potential stallion production line and they rightly gain a lot of admirers for that. You are right though, it is at quite a high cost.
Report potentialmillionaire June 14, 2010 4:09 PM BST
Good luck Yer ma, their's money in those juvenile hurdlers!!!
Report Prima Donna June 14, 2010 5:14 PM BST
JSB     14 Jun 10 15:50 
I am a fan of Darley for different reasons but get sick of hearing about the blue bin and the Darley graveyard

Well that's your view JSB,but imo Darley shot themselves in the commercial foot with their policy of 'pay when you sell'as all that has achieved is to down grade their stallions,look at the results of Byron for example,not really setting the world on fire but look at his books lots of utter dregs he will have a hard road to walk if he will be any good,
Coolmore may indeed have their fair share of stallion failures but as a rule of thumb you are safer with a Coolmore horse 1st or 2nd season in the ring,but saying that as with any rule there is always an exception to prove it.
I had a look myself at Beat Hollow last Dec'sale,I do like him and did think about him for a pet mare of mine,he seems to have very few runners that was the line the guy at Juddmonte told me,I would of thought they would be glad to get mares into him but they would only drop him to 5k,even liking her as I do she does not warrant that amount,I have thought for a long time his future imo is as a high class jump sire with his full bro' proving popular over here,I reckon its only a matter of time until reality hits them (Juddmonte) hard.
Report JSB June 14, 2010 7:53 PM BST
Prima Donna,are you serious giving Byron as an example of how Darley do buisness.He was hardly going to be a top flight stallion prospect.
Report Prima Donna June 14, 2010 8:49 PM BST
JSB Sir,Byron is a good example of a Darley sire,in so much as he's from a good family and being by a stallion who has got some successful sons,and more to the point he himself being a good 2,y'old held promise in terms of being commercial.However as he is a prime example of a Darley horse, he was kept in training far too long and that only dulls his racecourse achievements in the minds of breeders. A sharp 2yo type with a sharp 2yo pedigree does not need to be running past his 3yo campaign.But that's where they as I say shoot themselves in the foot,add to that that all they did was to cover anything that stood still long enough and do not forget the fact most did not pay until they sold, and as I said above, all that does is almost guarantee Byron fails. As his mares are by and large c r a p,people felt they had nothing to loose in doing the Darley deal,imo the only looser in the long term are Darley themselves,so yes JSB that is how Darley do business. 

Nobody is suggesting boycotting Darley sires. Indeed they do have some commercial types. Slick has used Ravens Pass and Shamardal. But there is a negative feel around the Darley stallions and in an industry fuelled by rumour, that is a dangerous thing.
Report potentialmillionaire June 14, 2010 8:56 PM BST
as a rule of thumb you are safer with a Coolmore horse 1st or 2nd season in the ring.
I think you're going to have to trot out a few statistics to back that one up, Prima.
In my opinion, buyers of horses for any kind of resale would prefer a Maktoum sired horse as they are still the ones with silly money to splash. Their associates, Rabbah have provided a real strength in depth for those horses below classic potential.
Coolmore realistically buy very little other than a tiny few at the top of their tree and ofcourse it is difficult to find a serious underbidder at those levels with Dubai missing. The rest of their purchases are just buying out foal shares. They leave everything below the big 3 to sink or swim.
I know from selling foals the paranoia of purchasers for a Coolmore sired foal because they simply don't know who owns or bred what. Coolmore's P.R. at the end of the nominations hotline particularly, is terrific and their bulk deals appear great value but I don't buy them as much more than a house of cards.

I am not sure that the end user buyer does much more than have an opinion on sire/dam and bid for the individual they like.                                                      A great looking individual by an independent stallion is what floats my boat!
Have a great Ascot. What a stunner, the Queen Anne. Comments on your paddock pick of the new sire prospects is your homework for the week please!
Report Prima Donna June 14, 2010 9:20 PM BST
Pot M, I am afaid I am the wrong person to ask for stats! Someone such as Equimine would be a better bet Happy It is very true what you say about Rabbah picking up the pieces for Darley and that does have to be taken into consideration. But so does the effect of Darley sires on a mares progeny record. Independents are a good option, but unfortunately the stallion market is so constricted that good stallion prospects are hard for them to come by and there have to be compromises on some aspects.

As for Ascot, I have a few that I am very interested to see and obv the 2yo races are early ideas for the 2012 season. Though one horse we would not touch with a barge pole would be Steinbeck, though I am interested in how the field looks. Golden Jubilee holds the most interest, can you guess who?
Report potentialmillionaire June 14, 2010 10:23 PM BST
Footstepsinthesand - described by one agent to me as 'hot and sweaty types- which I will confess has stuck a little. And with your 'beloved' Rainbow Quest close up!! Yes Steinbeck needs a wide berth unless he suddenly finds soundness and consistency which is a long shot I fear.
Your choices - Golden Jubilee mmm.
I will be interested to hear your views on Main Aim as I saw him at the July Cup last year and whilst I thought he had quality and presense I was worried about the Selkirk coming through. For me though, and if a gun was at my head I would guess for you, Showcasing is the one that holds most interest. If he turns out good enough I would like to see if my 'Telly' judgement is near to the mark.
A word of advice mind, don't pin you hopes on Kingsgate Native they tell me he might not cut it at stud...
[;)]
Report Prima Donna June 14, 2010 10:58 PM BST
Great minds think alike Pot M! Yes it is Showcasing that holds great interest for us, he is tailor made for one mare we have, he just needs to win enough to be able to send her. I agree about the Selkirk aspect of Main Aim, it is a concern, I would have to add in his size and lack of any 2yo run and despite his quality good looks he  would be one to avoid IMO. Showcasing seems to be the type to get 2yo's and with a lot of quality, combine with his own precocity and that in his pedigree, and he ticks several boxes.

So am I wasting my time speaking to Chris Richardson about booking a mare to KN?!Laugh
Report Equimine.co.uk June 15, 2010 7:13 AM BST
PD,

If you are looking for "sales ring" stats then I am afraid I can't help you there. Racecourse performances maybe, would probably need some stallion names to compare.
Report JSB June 15, 2010 8:30 AM BST
Prima Donna,I enjoy this forum very much as I like to see peoples opinions on different stallions and so on (although GG is badly missed).I rarely take part as I would be out of my zone but regarding Byron,to me he was a racehorse first and foremost for Godolphin and was purchased or bred as a racehorse not as a stallion prospect.Things have changed since I think.
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