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push
06 Jun 10 15:13
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Date Joined: 25 Jun 04
| Topic/replies: 804 | Blogger: push's blog
Shamardals son, Lupe de Vega does the same double as his sir the French 2000G and Derby. Did not back him in the French 2000 due to his poor draw, did not think he could win from the draw today so just had a whole £5 at 16-1 with lads for a bit of interest, fantastic ride brilliant performance. Just hope God dont buy him.

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Replies: 33
By:
push
When: 06 Jun 10 15:16
Shamardal and Dubawi, both getting topclass horses , 2 sires to look forward to in the future.
By:
ben10
When: 06 Jun 10 15:23
We had Shamardal fingered from early point last season Push Happy
By:
push
When: 06 Jun 10 15:26
Yes Ben, good to see him doing so well, hope he gets a few topclass ones over here  for me to follow.
By:
ben10
When: 06 Jun 10 15:26
Maxime Guyon really going places
By:
push
When: 06 Jun 10 15:27
Never took much notice of him until today .
By:
push
When: 06 Jun 10 18:25
Much better than that joke who rides Liliside.
By:
Shark12
When: 06 Jun 10 21:13
Darley revival?

Thats 4 European classics this season for them.
By:
potentialmillionaire
When: 06 Jun 10 21:54
The money they've thrown at the issue meant they couldn't fail, at the stallion side at least. It's the racing side that looks as if it's trickier for them.
By:
Shark12
When: 06 Jun 10 22:33
Dubawi and Shamardal were hardly costly acquisitions seeing as though they raced for Godolphin or one of the Maktoum clan (or close associate) for their entire racing career.

Think the racing side will sort itself out once the improved bloodstock filters down and 2yos with decent middle distance pedigrees start to race.
By:
Prima Donna
When: 06 Jun 10 22:59
with decent middle distance pedigrees start to race.


This is Darley's biggest problem when starting off any of their stallions they don't seem to own any mares that are capable of getting early sorts if ever they do they wreck them sending them to the likes of Singspiel or Shirocco and wonder where they went wrong,with this in mind its no wonder they are still so far behind the industry's leader Coolmore in stallion success.
By:
RipVanWinkle
When: 06 Jun 10 23:05
Agreed PD alot of there mares needed a distance and alot of there stallions needed a distance and they started breeding them that went knowhere. Then they covered the mares with speedier stallions and the result was the same need quick mares to these stallions and then you will get something that will be effective on the track.
By:
potentialmillionaire
When: 07 Jun 10 13:50
Are they SO far behind now PD? I think no access to Danehill Galileo and Montjeu was a massive hindrance but Cape Cross, Dubawi and Shamardal (Kings Best?!!) are decent, they are in Invincible Spirit and Pivotal and Singspiel and Halling are good sires by just about any stat you care to use (I accept not for your commercial only criteria). The Aga Khan puts stamina to stamina and he's no mug breeder so that ought to be possible too. I wonder if the Sheikhs inability to not endlessly 'tinker' with the breeding and racing programme is not the biggest hinderance. P.s. I haven't used their sires this year so I am trying as always to be impartial! Sometimes more successfully than others. . .
By:
RipVanWinkle
When: 07 Jun 10 14:59
Aga Khan doesnt think commercially and why would he. He wants to win Classics not Gimcracks.
By:
RipVanWinkle
When: 07 Jun 10 15:14
2 year old winner for there
By:
Prima Donna
When: 07 Jun 10 16:57
Agree with Rip Van Pot M,Darley seem to try to compete with Coolmore useing the Aga Khans policy they are either one or the other.
Singspiel and Halling good sires ConfusedCan't see it myself,the word barge pole springs to mind.
By:
Prima Donna
When: 07 Jun 10 16:59
I am trying as always to be impartial! Sometimes more successfully than others. . .Laugh
Am I so obvious [;)]
By:
potentialmillionaire
When: 07 Jun 10 20:11
Singspiel and Halling are above ALL coolmore sires in 3yo winners/runner % for the last 3 years. Singspiel 5= number of 3yo wins last 3 years. Singspiel 8= by number of horses Timeform 100+ rated for last 3 years. Halling AEI 1.73 + 4.3% stakes winners/foals. Singspiel 8th by %(23.7) of superior runners last 2 years in Europe upgrading his mares who are (16%) with their other runners. Halling 12th (23.1) + (19.3).
Now, the nerding has to stop, I'm p1ssing myself off. But the point is that on all of these stats they are ahead of Sadlers or D.D or Montjeu or Galileo some of the time. Coolmore run their business to suit the traditional stats. But I for one like to look a bit deeper than prize money, it's skewed, and not always to quality. Don't believe ALL the hype out there!
By:
Prima Donna
When: 07 Jun 10 21:26
Pot M, Singspiel should be getting that level of runners considering the quality of mares he somehow attracts. IMO he could get a superior runner for you, as long as you are aiming for a nice 5yo over about 20f and a colt that looks like a filly, personally I wouldn't touch him with someonelse's barge-pole!

Halling has been at stud since 1997 and only produced his first Gr 1 winner last season(though he has been hampered by standing in UAE I concede)I don't just believe the hype and i agree that prize-money stats can be distorting. One thing I do like to take into consideration is the quality of books each stallion has been given. This is where points such as how well Montjeu has done compared to Galileo become obv.

The very fact that Halling and Singspiel are being used as examples of Darley's good sires shows the original point nicely, neither horse is likely to get a decent 2yo who will go on and be at it's best over a mile-10f at 3yo. As you point out commercially niether is very attractive, and this is where they (Darley) are held back, no stallion can attract the right mares to produce the right horses to get good sales if they have limited appeal in the ring. it is a bit chicken and egg really, hence why race performance becomes vital, NOT keeping them in training forever ie Bertolini, Byron etc.
By:
RipVanWinkle
When: 07 Jun 10 22:17
There best stallion is Cape Cross i'm not a big fan of his though but he's the best they have at the moment. The stallion that should be a big hit is New Approach he was very good and got very good mares in his first season i'm sure that Sea The Stars has taken plenty of mares away from him.
By:
potentialmillionaire
When: 07 Jun 10 22:30
I chuckled at your 5yo 20 furlongs. I get your point!
It certainly makes our job tricky trying to work out a stallions worth versus the opportunity he has been given. But hell, it's something for us all to spar over on here!
I think that darley do keep their fees low to encourage good books for their more quirky prospects and I suppose their two impressive new kids have probably benefitted from this as they weren't from the instantly appealing Danzig/Sadlers tribe. It will certainly be interesting to see if this works with the German guys. I will confess that Shirocco is my idea of the ultimate quality thoroughbred - on looks - so I shall follow him with interest. He's not going to do too many 2yo's though but there's room for all sorts, on the racetrack at least.
By:
potentialmillionaire
When: 07 Jun 10 22:33
New Approach? I've got him as a bit of a clumsy lump with a bit too much size. Am I wrong?
By:
Prima Donna
When: 07 Jun 10 22:43
Yes you are right Pot M,he is a big horse and a touch on the plain side but one thing he has got despite Darley behind him is the fact he is a son of Galileo from a very good producing family,should be okay but he won't have the backing of Ballydoyle/Coolmore,and lets face it O'Brien has a much stronger hand than bin Suroor when it comes to the helping any first season sire.
By:
RipVanWinkle
When: 07 Jun 10 23:07
Ah no i think New Approach will do well remember there breeding arrangements are changing so i suppose he got very good mares to suit him. Jim Bolger also sent a number of mares to him and i'm sure he would love to see him do well at stud so he'll try his hardest to do that. I think the times are changing Ballydoyle may not be needed to promote every stallion.
By:
Prima Donna
When: 08 Jun 10 07:50
Yes Rip Van thats a very good point,perhaps times are changing we will have to see,In a way New Approach is the epitome of the sort of Derby winner that we all should use, so lets hope he makes it.
The quality of his mares will be very important to his chance of succes,but yes Jim Bolger will do all he can to help.....that is until he gets his first crop of Sea the Stars.I wonder if the best stock of NA will be bred by everyone other than Darley.
By:
potentialmillionaire
When: 08 Jun 10 19:55
Just been looking at N.A 1st book of mares. It is not Darley top heavy and everyone that you need seemed to be involved. He wasn't particularly fertile was he and ofcourse temperamentally challenged so that may be a factor, but I agree he remains a proper prospect.
By:
Prima Donna
When: 08 Jun 10 20:52
Jim Bolger will do all he can to help.....that is until he gets his first crop of Sea the Stars.Shocked

Good god I've just looked at this again.........I was getting mixed up last night thinking Jim Bolger trained Sea the Stars..........what planet did I come from(don't answer that)John Oxx who I know had nothing to do with NA ConfusedBut Jim Bolger has sent most of his best mares to STS.
By:
neill d
When: 09 Jun 10 16:51
served him well with Gallileo I suppose PD, It was a bit before my time but that's his style isn't it he makes his mind up about a sire and supports it with his best mares, Did I hear before that he lost alot in the early 90's supporting a horse that flopped at stud, was it Rodrigo de Triano the Chappel Hyam horse, very much open to correction on this
By:
potentialmillionaire
When: 09 Jun 10 20:00
Rodrigo went straight to Japan so not him. He did stand a few oddbodds, Erins Isle was it, and a Danzig horse who's name escapes me and I remember him saying that the breeding side had had to start very modestly. It is of some surprise to me that the training and breeding sides are enjoying such an autumn flush in the life of J Bolger.
By:
neill d
When: 10 Jun 10 14:52
I'm sure I read a story about him supporting a first season sire heavily and losing alot on it, I think the article related to how he got in on the ground floor with Gallileo before his fee went through the roof, the autumn flush as you say PM and how it all worked out in the end. I'm 21 therefore this would have been before my time. My understanding of bloodstock would be pretty basic.
By:
neill d
When: 10 Jun 10 14:53
I'm sure I read a story about him supporting a first season sire heavily and losing alot on it, I think the article related to how he got in on the ground floor with Gallileo before his fee went through the roof, the autumn flush as you say PM and how it all worked out in the end. I'm 21 therefore this would have been before my time. My understanding of bloodstock would be pretty basic.
By:
Prima Donna
When: 10 Jun 10 15:41
Pot M is right, It was Erin's Isle that Jim Bolger was very into. Neill D yes Galileo has served Bolger well and vice versa [;)]
By:
push
When: 10 Jun 10 18:55
Nice 2yo winner Dunboyne Express by Shamardal out of a half sister to the Oaks winner Love Divine ( how long before Godolphin decide to by him Dunboyne Express ? )
By:
Rowley Mile
When: 16 Jun 10 00:30
I'd say it's well and truly up for sale after it wins a group race, breeder/owner was a good patron of galileo's himself having bred and sold(well) angels story and prima luce.
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