Bloodstock & Breeding
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KB, sire of this years Japanese Derby winner, also has fancied runners in our Derby/Oaks and the French Derby. The boy could be on the comeback trail.
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Sorry , stand corrected, he sired the Japanese Derby 3rd.
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The winner was out of the mare Whitewater Affair, she was a pretty good filly trained by Sir M. Stoute.
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The boy could be on the comeback trail.
I think this stallion has gone too far down the route of being old hat and not commercial that despite how he gets on this year,breeders will give him the thumbs down,OBs may use him but I doubt many really would,standing in France wont help that either. What I could see on the horizon is if he does do very well esp' in Japan is a move to Darley Japan. |
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It could be one of those years for KB, like the one Dancing Brave had in 1993 , never to be repeated.
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That said mind it didn't help Mark of Esteem,after getting Sir Percy and Reverence,I cant remember how quickly Darley pulled the plug due to his fertility,I think with them if he had remained fertile he would now be in Japan.I think with KB if he does well he would be considered more credible as a broodmare sire.
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MarkOfEsteem was horrendously managed, always their dealing horse and job lot loss leader. He added desperate inconsistency to the mix but he was Sheikh Mo.s favourite apparently so perhaps he wouldn't have gone to Japan? Comparisons with Kings Best are pertinent aren't they. Both had their moments and that sort of horse is always going to stack up some fresh 'moments' the minute they become inaccessible. With K.Bs pedigree, broodmare sire is a strong possibility isn't it. I imagine he'd mesh well with Danzig line mares and a lot of his daughters are very well bred. M of E is having some success as a b.m sire too!
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I'd say he'll get one good more horse and that'll be it creachadoir isn't good enough so a good son is really needed. For his breeding he is not over priced but for what he has produced he is. He is by know means consistant. I think France might be a good place for him maybe mares that are bred different will suit him. Have you ever used him PD or PM we've never gone near him
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No I've not used him, but he's made the list a couple of times, but when you're trying to balance what you'd like versus what you can afford, well it can get to be a pretty long list can't it! Glad I didn't too and I reckon you might be right, that Allegretta crowd is very French isn't it - but let's hope that doesn't hinder See The Stars!
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Rip Van, we didn't use him either. Had he gone to coolmore we most likely would have.But Darley was always going to be a non-starter for him,he fit Slicks criteria in that he had a strong female family and the Kingmambo aspect can be useful.However Darley were only ever going to send him the wrong mares and bring out the stamina influences rather than Coolmore who would have capitalised on his being a GNS winner and sending him fast early mares.Commercially standing at Darley killed him off from the get go,never likely to produce an early precocious type to kick start his first season and from then on it would be an uphill battle.Time has shown this to be true.
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Agree PD it's unbelievable the difference in knowledge between Coolmore and Darley which is why we send more to Coolmore than Darley each year but Darley offer good value and the horses always have nice pedigrees and theres a better chance in the sheikhs buying your offspring than magnier and co but thats a bit off the point in question.
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PD, you wouldn't need to worry about those considerations if you're going 1st season though do you? And when they are proven, well they're proven aren't they. It seems those concerns only really apply 2nd 3rd and 4th season, or am I reading you wrong? Besides when you, me and Rip send our blue bloods to a stallion - how can he fail? !!!!
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To many stallions we have sent mares to have failed which is the case with everyone and when you do get the right cross it pays off. To be honest i've only being full time at work with breeding for about 10 years but the stud was a playground growing up so i've saw my fair share of good and bad crosses happen.
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PD, you wouldn't need to worry about those considerations if you're going 1st season though do you? And when they are proven, well they're proven aren't they. It seems those concerns only really apply 2nd 3rd and 4th season, or am I reading you wrong?
The thing is though Pot M is that if that thought about the stallion occurs to me then it also occurs to agents/trainers etc. Darley are not going to produce a likely super 2yo by him that could help you (as trainer or agent) to sell your new purchase to owners. Also pinhookers would be well aware of the Darley factor and may just hold back on the foals, this then leads to doubts once first yearlings appear, 'Why didn't foals sell well?' etc. A vicious and self perpetuating prophesy it may be but we all know that is how the industry works on these terms! |
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One more point about the Darley factor is a breeder friend in England got sucked into them with a good mare,she had bred several black type horses(the mare)the breeder used some of there more expensive sires,but all that person achieved was to wreck that mares results both on the track and more importantly in the sale ring,one well know agent said when looking at one of her yearlings"what the hell has happened to this mare she used to be good and all by effing Darley c,rap"Kings Best being one of the choices.This highlights why as a commercial breeder like Rip Van why most of ours go to Coolmore.
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The thing with us is we are commercial breeders but do keep the odd one that might not be that commercial so being stuck with something does not really effect us that much.
PD sure that is happening everday with mares going to Darley we use them every year but more mares go to Coolmore and other smaller studs aswell. We sent two mares to Iffraaj this year and while the mares were being covered we sold the two of them to buyers that Darley put us in contact to so i have to be thankful to them for that. Darley would do anything for you but there is just something lacking there. |
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Rip Van,Yes in a way Darley are and have always been very helpful when we have used them,they are very good at promotion but they tend to run there horses to long which can take the gloss off them when they retire,most of the Darley sires tend to be far to stoutly bred for breeders who are commercial,imo they have lots of stallions that hold big appeal for owner breeders,saying that though it looks like they have a few that do have appeal,we have used Ravens Pass along with Shamardal another being Dubawi though we have not used him.
Like you we also use some of the smaller studs Tally-Ho being one of those. |
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Well we've used Tally-Ho once or twice in the past but in the last few years we hadn't until Bushranger came along
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Well we've used Tally-Ho once or twice in the past but in the last few years we hadn't until Bushranger came along
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Yeah he is a very nice prospect and I hope he does as good if not better than Danetime who as I've said before is a big loss to us breeders,only the other day Tony said to me that if only he were still here....but Bushranger is getting plenty of mares and some very good ones,Kodiac so he told me has had 120 mares this year thats really good shows that breeders have faith in him.
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Danetime, that was one hell of a b'mmer for Tally Ho, fascinating to speculate how far he would have gone. I don't think I am the fan of Coolmore that you guys are. There is no strength down the line with those massive books. The trainers get fed up with them too quickly as they've all had one inside the 1st 2 crops - and it stands to reason it will be slow, as most horses are. There is absolutely no support from their cohorts for anything other than a Galileo/Montjeu foal share. Plenty of agents are wary of the stock because they don't know who the hell owns it. They flood the industry with Dr Devious foals et al. who positively regress the breed. If you take anything but the best 5% of their stallions stock, you are sh'gged Rabbah, are an ace in the Darley pack for a real shot with a nice non superstar by a Darley sire they may provide a real option unavailable with C.
Mind you, ever the hypocrite I have used Coolmore this year -first time for ages though- and not gone to Darley! But I really do try to pick the best stallion for the mare without being brand loyal, and I think we are all really happiest when the ideal stallion turns out to be with an independent! |
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Well if you have a few mares you have to be loyal to the stud which supports you and for us that is Coolmore. Agree that you have to get the right match for the mare.
What stallion did you use this year PM |
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If I tell you that, you'll all have a big ol' stick to beat me with! It may be obvious from earlier posts elsewhere - if your memory's good!!!!
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On the comeback trail.
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Well spotted push. He had 2 winners in 5 minutes yesterday but most people will only notice the second one as Jawaab is just another decent handicapper like most of KB progeny were until this season.
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My first statement was correct Kings Best son Eishin Flash did win the Japanese Derby, he was 3rd in the 2000G. Another son of Kingmambo also sired the Japanese Derby 2nd, hence ending the dominance of Sunday Silence ( at least for one race ).
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Well done Push,Still reckon he will find it hard to make a comeback as a commercial sire if he ever really was,steps up though as a class BM sire,doing well in Japan,if WF doesn't for fill his promise could see him at Darley Japan next year.
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Your back, how was your day at Epsom, and how do you explain the O Brien pacemaker beating his two fancied runners ? On a formline with Midas Touch through At First Sight, he should have been placed at least, thought JM would have taken closer order with JV, like he did with ****.
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Noticed that Eishin Flashs dam is German bred, and the dam of Kings Best is also German bred , perhaps Kings Best would do well with German bred mares ? Also Workforce is out of a Sadlers Wells mare like alot of Kings Bests European runners.
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The day was very hot and good fun thanks,I think in the case of the Pacemaker for Ballydoyle I think they wanted a strong pace thinking it would play into JV strong hand,but in fact it backfired on them because all it did was show that JV could not quicken off a strong pace and in the end looked pretty moderate,also they may have underestimated At First Sight a bit,the plain fact is that they all look god damn average.As for Midas Touch I never thought he was the type as for me he looked like he wanted a trip imo now and after his win in the Derrinstown looks a nice horse for the St.Leger.
Kings Best as you say is from a very good German family with plenty of stamina Urban Sea producing Galileo by Sadlers Wells,so its no surprise he has been mated with SW mares therefore he I guess has had more SW mares this may increase his number of winners out of SW mares. |
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Well he got the one good one that i said he really needed dont think he'll be very commercial still though because this really could be a one hit wonder for Kings Best. Not trying to take anything away from Workforce but he has to really show what he's made of in the next few races just winning a Derby is not going to get him the best mares.
It was hot there yesterday PD i nearly got scalded |
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Well Rip Van yes it was hot sorry to hear you almost got scalded,saw plenty of people looking like melting ice cubes,it was a great day,being so hot I had the perfect excuse to drink more ice cold champagne
 the winner looked very impressive hope you backed him,I had Bullet Train who frankly ran like he needed one. |
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I think Workforce really does look the deal. However, Epsom does take it's toll and coupled with a record time and a fragile father I think we need to sit tight a while. Whilst we're all agreed with the patchy-ness of Kings Best, he does add a mighty pedigree to the mix, which should help a potential sire prospect. Not so keen on the dams side mind. One of Juddmontes more ordinary to my mind. (Although that's all relative!!!) I remember Sookera and her ordinary tribe and then came Kerali, and the rest is history. They have a great record at upgrading a 'solid' background. I've got a smallish all quality mare that would do Workforce a treat, but if he's a superstar he'll be too rich and if he isn't - well the questions will remain won't they?
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See that God are aiming Rewilding at the St Leger now, which is what we thought PD. At First Sight , was out of sight behind Midas Touch in the trial, given that the step up in trip should have suited MT, i dont see how AFS managed to reverse the form. Expect O Briens will run much better in the Irish Derby.
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Push,If they (God) do get Rewilding to Donny'and if Midas Touch lines up as well cant see the finishing order being reversed,God do very well with that race and I assume it will be fast ground at Doncaster,I also agree that the O'Brien runners should go better in the Derby(Irish).
AFS ran a blinder yesterday if they handle him right and he comes out of the race okay he should win a GR1,but that depends on if they keep him as a pace horse. |
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I backed two horses in the Derby, Midas Touch and At First Sight yes At First Sight each way. I think the derrinstown is always a good trial and i thought that MT would do better yesterday but covered my bets with AFS e/w liked him when he won his maiden last year was disappointed in the derrinstown but he turned up yesterday and thats were it was needed. Winning a group 1 could be hard for AFS though maybe the Grand Prix De Paris or King George it wouldnt surprise me if he never won another race though epsom takes alot out of horses the same can be said about workforce
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Watching Workforce today I wonder can breeders see him being popular?Coming from such a stout family and his size one run at 2 years.Kings Best doing well in Japan I could see Juddmonte selling him to Japan.
Dansili is on fire just gets better as time goes on .........rather like his runners  Hope you are looking after your mare in foal to Champs Elysees Pot M good value sire lovely horse who should be popular at the sales. |
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Even though he ran on turf in America which is full of hand grade 1s for turf horses at least Champs Elysees is from what I can remember reading, a very good looking horse. Workforce's form doesn't look great apart from that one line they can trot out about his Epsom performance, (i've never liked racetimes as a means of conferring merit) To me he looks like a big plain yoke with an enormous head and is light of mouth who they were afraid to run in the eclipse.(and I backed him in his maiden)If I had a mare and I don't I'd rather sent one to Confront who is possibly one of the nicest looking horses you would ever see. The only thing that is holding him back is that he's already gelded (must have broken their heart to do that) and he reguarly struggled to beat Mac Love last year.
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is a very good looking horse, Christ I need a secretary
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Just had a week away - very rare and lovely occurance - mare in foal to C.El. looks after herself, greedy old bird!
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