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top3 makin ahern and de souza
11 Oct 09 18:08
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Date Joined: 21 May 09
| Topic/replies: 588 | Blogger: top3 makin ahern and de souza's blog
after he wins the champion on saturday
Pause Switch to Standard View fame and glory what price will he...
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Report Prima Donna October 11, 2009 8:02 PM BST
I dont think hes done enough yet,at the moment he screams jump sire,If they keep him next year he will go down the Coronation Cup King George route,then be sold they have more than enough jumping sires.I dont think he will win the Chapion stakes.but if he goes to stud this year,they will ask 10/12k but thats far too much IMO
Report Prima Donna October 17, 2009 5:14 PM BST
At this rate he will be off to the Beeches covering jump mares at about 4/5k,or sold to the US.No appeal as a flat sire.
Report RipVanWinkle October 17, 2009 5:25 PM BST
MIKE DE KOCK wrote all over him
Report mightymoyes October 17, 2009 5:45 PM BST
never make it on the coolmore flat roster
Report GANT007 October 17, 2009 5:46 PM BST
RIP......I agree.
Report Prima Donna October 17, 2009 5:49 PM BST
Yes I could see both scenarios,agree hes no flat sire
Report savaloy69. October 17, 2009 8:07 PM BST
Triumph hurdle imo
Report GRIZLY April 11, 2010 5:19 PM BST
nh sire imo
Report push April 11, 2010 5:23 PM BST
Today was a prep race for the Coronation Cup at Epsom ( imo )
Report the lay preacher April 11, 2010 11:39 PM BST
agreed
Report Gimcrack April 12, 2010 12:43 AM BST
He's definitely got enough class and substance to stand as a flat sire. It's also worth noting, if it weren't for Sea The Stars, he would be a dual derby and Irish champion winner-that's got to be good enough to get a job at coolmore?
Report Prima Donna April 12, 2010 6:20 AM BST
Of course it would be but he never won any of those races,lots of almost horses like him go to stud........but only as jump sires,too stout too much a pure stayer if they stand him(I dont think they will) he will go jumping.
Report potentialmillionaire April 12, 2010 10:18 PM BST
if he goes through this season like Pegasus (seemingly unlikely now) then I think he could get a berth as his sire really is the best and incredibly prepotent to type and The Hurricane Runs still have goodwill on their side - indeed his performance will perhaps have the greatest bearing on his Paternal little bro.
Report Gimcrack April 13, 2010 12:14 AM BST
Yeah, but not many horses meet a Sea The Stars! This year he could pick up that gr. 1 over 10f? If he does I'm confident he'll get a decent flat job.
Report Prima Donna April 13, 2010 7:42 AM BST
And are you so sure commercial flat breeders would want to use a horse like him?If he is going to stand a chance of standing as a flat sire he will have to up the ante considerably,the route it looks like they are planning this season could be seen as a road to Castlehyde or The Beeches.Or on the other hand as a poster said above a sale to Mike de** would not surprise me at all.
Report Prima Donna April 13, 2010 7:43 AM BST
**Kock** not C0ck (don't tell him I put that)
Report Gimcrack April 13, 2010 11:00 AM BST
Well Hurricane Run seems to have done pretty well so far, and I see Fame And Glory as having a similar profile to him, so I don't really see why he can't be successful? I would say he's a nicer type than Hurricane Run as well. Also, I see Age Of Aquarius taking the route based more around the 12f mark, with races such as the Coronation Cup and Fame And Glory looking more at the 10f mark, possibly with another attempt at the Arc at the end.

But I agree, If this season doesn't go to plan, he will probably end up with Mr de Kock.
Report Prima Donna April 13, 2010 1:49 PM BST
Don't think he will win over 10f hasn't got the speed imo looks a sure fire mile and a half horse,but he may pick up something like the Tatts Gold Cup at the Curragh,I very much doubt commercial FLAT breeders would want a horse with his profile.
Report ben10 April 13, 2010 1:54 PM BST
Sorry but Fame And Glory doesn't come close to Hurricane Run
Report neill d April 13, 2010 2:34 PM BST
We need a good Irish derby this year
Report ben10 April 13, 2010 2:50 PM BST
We struggle to get an English Derby with any depth to it nowadays. Just modern trends I guess, not the same money in breeding what would probably be potential National Hunt stallions.
Report Prima Donna April 13, 2010 3:12 PM BST
Agree completely with Ben 10 re Hurricane Run and Fame and Glory
Report Gimcrack April 13, 2010 3:38 PM BST
Well, so far Fame And Glory's best RPR is 131 and Hurricane Run's was 133. They're both by Montjeu, both Irish derby winners, both from staying families. That's pretty close isn't it? Granted Hurricane Run won an arc, which is where he got the RPR of 133, but he wouldn't have come close in last years arc. Also, unlike Hurricane Run, Fame And Glory was forward enough to win a gr. 1 at two...
Report Prima Donna April 13, 2010 4:34 PM BST
Well, so far Fame And Glory's best RPR is 131 and Hurricane Run's was 133. They're both by Montjeu, both Irish derby winners, both from staying families. That's pretty close isn't it?

Yes but only to a point,which from what I can see reading what your view is you have missed the COMMERCIAL point regarding stallions.
Report RipVanWinkle April 13, 2010 7:59 PM BST
Hurricane Run is one good looking horse when you see him in the flesh serious looking animal with great scope.
Report neill d April 15, 2010 3:40 PM BST
if he was sold to dekock what kind of money would he cost
Report Arkle's Shadow April 18, 2010 1:10 PM BST
The horse just has no appeal which is a shame IMO. Won over 1M 2F at two (in a bog). Won an Irish Derby (in a bit of a bog) and can't come back to 1M 2 so doesn't scream speed either. No doubt that Sea The Stars has severely dented his reputation but all the same you can't deny the similarities between FAG and Solieroffortune.

Anyone know whatever happened to him...?
Report RipVanWinkle April 18, 2010 6:04 PM BST
Soldier Of Fortune is at stud in France is still owned by Coolmore
Report B'town April 19, 2010 9:00 AM BST
Gimcrack,
Best of luck at the sales with your Fame and Glory foals in 2012.
Wouldn't like to be ya....

Back to Derby sale in 2015 with them I fear
Report Gimcrack April 20, 2010 11:29 AM BST
I don't think I'll be able to afford him, B'town...I read yesterday Aidan's targeting the big 10f/12f races with him. So that will be Tattersalls Gold Cup, Prince of Wales, King George, Juddmonte International, Irish Champion and Arc, with the Mooresbridge as a prep? I hope I'm right...
Report Prima Donna April 20, 2010 12:39 PM BST
That might be his plan,but I cant see F&G winning any of those except the Tatts' Gold Cup,try as B'doyle may he is nothing but a plod jump stallion,after he gets plenty of places in those races.
Report top3 makin ahern and de souza April 20, 2010 12:50 PM BST
i fear we may be underating fame and glory i could see him going well in all of those races to be fair
Report Prima Donna April 20, 2010 12:54 PM BST
You may be right,breeders have him down as a pure stayer WITHOUT a turn of foot,he has no appeal now except as a jump sire or they will sell him.
Report Gimcrack April 20, 2010 1:05 PM BST
Prima, I can see you're not gonna be swayed on this one...
Report Prima Donna April 20, 2010 1:27 PM BST
You are spot on,he is a nice horse but imo as you can see he will really have to up it a hell of a lot this year to hold any appeal as a flat stallion.I dont think he can,he needs 12f at least.
Report potentialmillionaire April 20, 2010 2:11 PM BST
I think Prima is being a bit worst case scenario here - but that's usually what happens in racing!! I think on reflection I'm probably in the same camp.
Report RipVanWinkle April 20, 2010 8:21 PM BST
I think Fame and Glory could turn out o be top class this year because there are not many good older horses around. He does not hold any appeal to me but i can see him being used as a flat sire but maybe not at Coolmore as i think there main focus will be to make a name for Rip Van Winkle because he will be way more commercial than FaG and hopefully he will clean up all the major mile races this year and if he does go to stud next year i would send a mare to him because he will be very commercial
Report Prima Donna April 20, 2010 8:35 PM BST
Rip Van,I agree about Rip Van Winkle,he will be very commercial I think one of ours would go to him,I think you have a point about F&G running this year,but he really does need to turn it in,but like you holds absolutely no appeal when he goes to stud.
Report potentialmillionaire April 20, 2010 8:38 PM BST
Rip van has such an uninspiring pedigree though doesn't he. I would rather use a son of Gallileo that is truer to type myself. Sadlers milers were by and large disappointing sires and he has excelled through his best 'typical' sons. A true to type Montjeu would definitely be my choice for success. However commercial factors do influence us more than perhaps they should I fear!
Report RipVanWinkle April 20, 2010 9:45 PM BST
I liked Stravinsky as a horse and he's not been to bad at stud and hopefully he will become a good broodmare sire as he will add speed to any mare. I think that sons of Galileo will always hold more appeal at stud than sons of Montjeu purely because Galileo will throw more quality speedier two year olds. You will say what about SNA he is not what i would call a real speedy two year old.
Report potentialmillionaire April 20, 2010 9:56 PM BST
I quite like Stravinsky too, it would have been interesting to have had him stand over here - surely his natural fit. I agree Galileo does a speedier type of 2yo but Montjeu does a higher rated type! I love Montjeu for his total consistency, will Galileo's versatility stand him in good stead or will it muddy the issue? ! Time will tell
Report RipVanWinkle April 20, 2010 10:03 PM BST
Versatility is something that can really make a stallion this was evident with Oasis Dream last year he was on fire over a range of distances. Montjeu two year olds are more for the top mile races which i dont really consider to be the top two year old races. I think the Phoenix , National and Dewhurst are the main races.

It is a pity that Stravinsky isn't here because our main source of speed is Danehill or Danzig he would offer a different route to Northern Dancer.
Report potentialmillionaire April 21, 2010 8:16 PM BST
I think commercially they are the races, but they perhaps aren't quite as good as pointers to the 3yo championships as they used to be. Certainly it's where your favoured milers come from, but perhaps the classic 3yo (usually rated higher!) is coming from the 1 mile 2yo events (colts and fillies). Not sure I can be bothered to research this fully mind! Those stallions, O.D., D.D. Piv etc that do speed and the classic distance are indeed phenomenal, I would only like to use those stallions by them that are true to the original aptitude of speed though, as I think that the staying Danehills and speedy Sadlers Wells have disappointed - to back my theory!
Report push June 4, 2010 2:54 PM BST
Thought so.
Report RipVanWinkle June 4, 2010 6:42 PM BST
He was good today and they went very fast there was no slowing down at all today. I was there today and have to say i was impressed i thought High Heeled was a bigger danger than sariska going into the race and she wasn't that far off him. Hopefully they aim him at two 1m 2f races and then the ARC
Report potentialmillionaire June 4, 2010 8:32 PM BST
Good today, undeniably. I'd keep him at 1 1/2 it's his trip and it's where he'll have most success. As he won over 1 1/4 at two he'll only ever be perceived as a stayer even if he does nick a couple of easy 10f's now. I'd rather he finished with a glorious 12f record as he just does not have a speedy pedigree, profile or physique. Accentuate the positive I say because he won't do fat arsed 2yo types however hard breeders try!
Report Prima Donna June 6, 2010 7:26 PM BST
I agree with PotM' on this one,I'm sure his connections know that really he is pure mile and a half horse that won his 10f(soft race)to add to his cv,but as we live in a age where  middle distance horses are given no chance unless they win over a shorter trip to 'prove'they have speed i'm sure we will see him out running over the so desired 10f races this summer hot on the heels of a charging pace horse...........thing is though I for one will be surprised if once he meets some top class runners who really are 10f horses, he will be back in the winners enclosure as I reckon he will get stuffed,its a shame that a horse who is a top middle distance colt will be like Motivator campaigned over shorter than ideal trips just to 'pretend' they have speed, why do they do it!
Report flushgordon June 6, 2010 9:11 PM BST
unless he wins a good quality king george they cant charge a lot i would think,
unless he is better than i think he is and wins the eclipse.
Report victors June 15, 2010 2:50 PM BST
Going back to the original question- I think he will be listed at %u20AC25000 but available from 17k. I can see the ads now 'Group 1 winner at 2,3,4. Brilliant from 10-12 furlongs, an outstanding Irish Derby winner and European champion at 4.
That said there are a lot of sons of montjeu coming on stream over the next few years
Report potentialmillionaire June 15, 2010 5:14 PM BST
Victors, I can see you as a new P.R. man for the team!
I wouldn't expect a 1st season sire to trade from 25000 down to 17 in year one, that just means the price is wrong.
I think with a stayer like Fame and Glory he'll either warrant 25+ (And I'm not sure he does) or he'll not retire to that establishment.
The ownerbreeders that you need on board for his type are only interested in the very best.
Yeats is trading on sentimentality and admiration, and good luck to him, but he's the exception.
Report victors June 16, 2010 5:14 PM BST
its interesting the montjeu angle they are using for Yeats- 'Yeats bred on the same sadlers wells- top ville cross as montjeu'. You gotta love their marketing people.....

You might be right about fees- I think about 17500 would be about right- in your experience how negotiable are coolmores published fees- is there a standard discount you can get for a well credentialled mare?
Report potentialmillionaire June 16, 2010 5:56 PM BST
I'm probably not the best credentialled to answer this, it's Rip Van & Prima Donna territory really. I don't use them very often and I don't go in with more than one or two mares. The popular stallions don't move that much in fee and they'd rather try and tack on one you don't want to use with a huge discount - which would probably be available to anyone anyway!
Popular 1st seasoners don't move in my experience. Popular other types move perhaps 10% just to make you feel as if you've struck a hard bargain!!
I remember in the old days the mega-popular ones increased in fee as the season went on but I guess that may be no more? Perhaps someone better qualified might disagree with me here.
Report RipVanWinkle June 16, 2010 6:14 PM BST
Well we use Coolmore every year and thats being for a while nowBlush They are negotiable on some stallions but wont budge on others. Stallions that there are good deals on are Strategic Prince, Excellent Art, Ad Valorem and Footstepsinthesand there was good deals on Oratorio for a while. It really depends on how you know the nomination lads and how good your mare is. We dont use the top stallions cause there just to dear maybe PD might know more about the expensive stallions
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