Are all Frankels races boat races like that one?

Cadel Evans would have them all beat

fkn pacemaking garbage

It was a awesome win DT i know the races are run to suit but he looked like a machine there. He looks unbeatable.

That's what they consider fair racing over there DT, agree the winner was impressive and appears more tractable now but again it beat nothing there, looked more like boatie at GP than a competitive Group 1. They're racing is just a total embarrassment and will remains so until they ban pacemakers

No doubt he's a serious horse but that was a dead set farce. That my friend is not racing.

Lets Elope how are pacemakers no good for racing? Its a level playing field for all runners and races are truly run instead of the boat races we have up in Sydney where they walk and let Gais horses get away with blue murder leaving the backmakers with no hope of winning?

The 2nd favorite DT in that race is a OK horse he won his last start by panels eased up its just that Frankel makes them look ordinary much like BC

Watch last years Guineas you Dough peak hunt.
Here,ill help you out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQajCQ1_BSA

Really needed help there didn't he.

Age restricted race don't mean much OldBox

Looked a good win was the 2nd horse supposed to test him? What horses around the world in that distance range would be a test for him if any

mickeyblueeyes, how is a pacemaker fair racing, what about horses that can bounce out fast and sit on the speed, wouldn't they be disadvantaged by a horse will no intent on winning pouring on the pressure?

I am honestly surprised that once the jockey on that pacemaker had let Frankel through he didn't jump off and lead the horse back to his stalls!!!

It was absolutely embarrassing. Considering how many people around the world would have tuned in to watch that race, if the racing administers in the UK aren't hanging their head in shame today after allowing that to happen i'll go jump. If that is the sort of advertisement they want for racing in the UK (as a spectacle) then they can have it.

Thank god my betting there doesn't consist of actual form study or i'd give up

I thought that Frankel looked the best I've seen him..He will have no trouble at 2000m this prep... Unclee leaders don't have to lead..they just run at a time/tempo that suits them..regardless of where the field is...But a quick tempo takes out the Horses not suited by the distance ..which it should..you want the fastest Horse to win the race....not the slowest suited by a good ride and a slow tempo..ie...More Joyous in the Queen Elizabeth...Joke!!

Agree with his looks, he was rock hard.

mickey........one of the great rules of racing is "every horse must be given every chance to win"     .....with pace makers this is not the case, the pace maker has no intention of winning the race

Loggy...The Horses that sat behind MJ ..which are our supposed best WFA Horses..where they given every chance?...1st 800m 53.5

Coming into the QE every horse was given every chance, at no point in time was that pacemaker ever a possibility to win the race

disagree lazza, the trots have implemented a rule that makes the leader an equivalent to a pacemaker - it hasn't improved the quality racing, imo best horses should have to overcome tempo, barriers and bad rides.. my 2 cents

We just had a Horse win the triple crown...adds millions to the Horse Pierro...Slowest slipper in years...They went slow and Pierro sat just off them...Just my opinion.

and then he went on to give all no heart a hiding the week after... if you think pierro was a fluke you are surely mistaken

So your of the opinion that Pierro is our fastest sprinting 2yr old?

no i think he is the best 2 yr old of his crop, i dont think racing should be a case of who is left standing after chasing a tempo that horses aren't trained to compete at... given the way everyone says Gai trains her horses he may well have still won all those races with a pacemaker

I backed pierro in the slipper Unc..and not because he was the fastest lol.

UK racing is terrible.  Not only are their G1 races not genuine contests but there is no quality at all in the form of the horses.  Dubawi Gold was 3rd fave and ran 3rd by 9L.  But his last 2 runs he got thumped by 18L and 8.75L by horses not named Frankel.  So Frankel did not beat him any worse than what other horses do.  And Dubawi Gold was the 3rd most likely winner in the race according to the market.  The 4th, 5th and 6th placed horses also had terrible form over the last 12 months as well.  Two of these were pacemakers which accounts for some of their terrible form but if go out planning to be beaten by 20L you are adding nothing to the contest of the race

The bad thing is the bad elements of UK racing are starting to appear in Australia as racing people in Australia see how much they get away with in the UK just by issuing press releases and handing out monster Timeform ratings

You lot really are clueless,Have a look at a horse called Windsor palace,Ran two weeks ago in ireland as a pacemaker for St Nicholas Abbey,He went off at a mental pace but didnt come back to the field and ended up winning,what have you idiots got to say about that?ban him in future shall we??
MUGS!!

You can't ban pace makers, but what you can do is fine jockeys for not giving the horse every chance of winning.

I am sure we have pace makers in Aus but because of the jockeys ability it is less obvious, i guess we don't consider it a real contest when a pace maker is needed to control the race and this should be left up to each of the jockeys to work out the best pace for there mount, this is where some skill is involved i guess they just don't teach that overseas.

In our country the trainers enter the pacemakers,virtually always Godolphin and Ballydoyle and the jockey's do as they are told.Nothing to do with ability.Probably only 10 of our races a year have pacemakers.Out of many thousands.Hardly a big issue.

Well maybe 20,but still a tiny fraction.

it's a big issue when they're group 1's

not a big issue he says

This maybe true, since we see this often it must be the biggest races they do this in as these would be the ones we watch.

You won't hear a trainer complain about any other trainer using a pacemaker.

Everyone wants pace,not every horse likes to lead.

hth.

It is only the very top races,they are trying to find champions,any good horse can get beat if the pace is really slow and trouble in running because of it.You only have to watch the Arc in past years to see that.

they are NOT trying to find champions ... just flukey stud horses .. which breed further horses that dont have natural pace ... but that's the UK & europe ... its your style

but in the rest of the rold ... HK, Japn, the Us & Oz .. we are breeding & racing quick horses ... that is our style

we naturally think our quick horses are better than your dour staying types

we prove it with speed against yours .. the yanks prove it with speed against yours

yours is a club .. made for the breeders .. to continue to breed dour types .. that is all

the rest of the world like accelerating types 

If a horse cannot handle mile pace it shouldn't be running over a mile.

If you want to see sprinters win mile races then go to Australia or Hong Kong[lol] iyo.

again you fail to see topf .. what you call "mile pace" .. is what you guys know as mile pace

other parts of the world run differently .. with naturally faster horses possessing more acceleration and brilliance ... yours is a more dour type of racing that we call plodding (no disrespect)

that is why you guys are so excited about frankel ... he is a more dashing type of horse that you guys dont see too often .. we see tham all the time

if frankel can carry his dash over a mid-dist 10f ... many Uk race follwers will be wet with joy at such a different type of horse that you guys rarely see ... whereas Oz and the US, HK and japan see these type regularly ... and you would agree .. they are very exciting to watch ...

you say your racing is more interesting & exciting .. we say ours is .. that is all

A lot of horses can quicken off a slow pace Bas only the best can quicken off a fast one.

A miler should be a miler imo bas a horse that STAYS a mile not a 6f horse taking advantage of a slow early pace.

BTW you might get those sort of i OZ,HK or Japan but not in US....

that might be what happens in the uk topf .. sprinters winning miles

but not elsewwhere ... have a look at the times they run a mile in .. in the Us and australia

do you think a winner running 1:34:75 race over 1600m is recorded off a slow pace .. or a fast pace for example ?

not in the US ?

.. they run slower over a mile in the US on turf than australia ... do you reckon

They couldn't go any faster early on dirt in the US bas although they haven't a clue about racing on grass.

You might be able to judge a race on time over there Bas but the variances in courses and more importantly ground make it impossible to use it as a accurate guide here.

You might be able to judge a race on time over there Bas but the variances in courses and more importantly ground make it impossible to use it as a accurate guide here.

.. agreed topf .. i understand that

but the US is THE .. speed and endurance .. testing ground .. their horses fly

(yes i know they all use lasix ... which means they run to their fastest there .. but they can't run faster than their physiology allows of course even on the gear ... )

it is probably the reason that the UK runners (like an on-pacer in the KDerby such as daddy) couldn't get anywehere near the front and tailed off to finish last

but it MIGHT be the reason why an ex-aussie horse So You Think ran such a great race in the US (even on dirt for first time lol - well done afterthought campaign aidan ffs) ... after his run in the ARC ..

If you had a miler that really needed a mile but wanted cover in a race why would you not run a pacemaker,common sense isn't it.

The horses we have sent to the Kentuckey Derby have just not been good enough and can't handle the kick back.

Although since the advent of polytrack at the breeders cup we have been and will be in the future much more competitive in the U.S.

common sense aint that common

if a horse can win a mile when the pace is fast ... set by a pacemaker ..

then without a pacemaker ... why doesn't the jockey just run the same pace as he would with a pacemaker

if the horse can run the time (with a pacemaker) .. then isn't it just a poor jockey who doesn't know what pace to run at .. anyways .. why rely on a pacemaker if the horse can run fast in the first place

Horses are not machines Bas a lot of them like to be ridden a certain way and quite a few [usually mine] don't do a stroke in front and need cover or to be produced late.

the inverse must also be true then ... and allowable under UK racing law

maybe the introduction of ... 'pace stoppers' ... would also be ok

just for those horses that LIKE to lead under a basic steam .. rather than a fast pace

so a pace stopper or three could go to the font ... and HOLD UP everyone else

that would be fair to the other horses ... not just the ones that NEED a pace to do something

I'm going to bed....

I think he fails to understand that it is the jockey that needs to decide the pace of the race not the trainer.

Over here if the horse needs cover but want to be at the front the jockey who does the form decides what horse to follow that will give the desired effect for the horse.

i couldnt understand why excelebrations jockey pulled the right rein so hard to make his run, he instantly lost a length going by the video, where as frankel gently eased out of the slip stream of his pacemaker.

having the run of the race makes it easier work.

my opinion

Absolutely. Many books dedicated to trip handicapping.

so a pace stopper or three could go to the font ... and HOLD UP everyone else

Like most Aussie racing? We have many races like this as well - no greater sight (assuming the £ is down) than Richard Hughes in the lead, setting a slow pace coming round Tattenham Corner pulling double.....

It's called variety and whatever you say about UK racing we've certainly got that!

cheers spyker ... so the pacemakers are usually by those stables & in those big races ... where the result and all the planning is purely directed towards .... 'who is heading to stud for the big bucks'

and are the UK pace-stoppers a "known phenomenon" ... discussed by the media & punters .. like the pacemakers are ?

Gai  used a pacemaker at Scone, unfortunatly it was the fav.she admited as much after the race ,won by her other runner.She said the race was run to suit.What a bloody joke.

Frankels 7th win? (link in the other thread where it walked in and held on by around a length) he used a pacemaker.
The pacemaker was gone with 600 metres left in the race.  He was out by 10 lengths then fell in a hole.  How exactly does that secure a truly ran race?  The rest of them went about their business  and he was merely in the way with half a mile to go because he had nothing left.

Can use the argument that pacemakers sometimes win, but that doesn't make them pacemakers.  Sometimes you can look at a race and it is suited to taking them on early and trying to hold on at the end.  That is racing.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

The argument you can't stop pacemakers is ridiculous.  If a horse is in a race where it should be competitive and it is beaten with half the race to go, trainer gets suspended, jockey suspended.  Simple as that.  There is no 1600 metre race in the world where a horse should go from 1st by 10 lengths, to last with 600 metres to go that would suggest the horse was given the best chance to win the race.
Fine them, suspend them.  They are dangerous to themselves, dangerous to the other runners, and dangerous to the sport.

and are the UK pace-stoppers a "known phenomenon" ... discussed by the media & punters .. like the pacemakers are ?

As much as they are in EVERY country with horseracing. Some horses like slow pace and to kick, some like a fast pace and don't have a kick, some like early pace, some like mid pace (you see where I'm going with this)........
Top class horses (over whatever distance) obviously quicken up off a fast pace, they also have to be able to win races that don't suit - is that really that complicated to comprehend?
By what you aussies are saying you seem to think that 'proper' horseracing is horses dawdling and then kicking for the last 2 furlongs. Great, whhopdedoo, all your horses can quicken off a slow pace and win over pretty much any distance as they are really only racing for the last 400m of the race. Yes we have races like that - but we also have pacemakers in some races and guess what - sometimes they win as well.
BTW look at the head on of the Lockinge - Frankel moves aside to overtake Bullet Train and then shoots past and BT then edges left - look at the lines on the grass to see that Frankel moved right and then kept straight. There is plenty of room for all horses to do whatever they want - no horse is hampered or disadvantaged but don't let the facts get in the way of your preconceived nonsense!

Agree with wiz..wonder how much Tommy layed on that fave at scone..

Actually, spyker, quite the opposite is true and I think you have skillfully glossed over what is actually being said.
Pacemakers make one style of race, rather than create varying styles. Great horses can win no matter the style and pace of the race. They are flexible and can do whatever is necessary to win. I have never argued that Frankl isn't a great horse. The point is that it would be nice if the races were a more genuine contest that played to the idiosyncrasies of every runner, rather than to the select few.
Genuine pace does not equal a genuine contest and that does not always suit every runner. Let the race unfold as it will and maybe Frankl might not be undefeated.
One thing is certain. BC has run in every style of race and won them all on her ear. She can sit back, push forward, sit on the paint or in the bleachers. It makes no difference, she still wins.

agreed snake

spyker has an agenda maybe ... all races are a variety of possibilty

that variety is based on which horses are nominated ... and which styles they run best at

the question with the uk racing is this

it was mentioned by T-T that pacemakers were not that prevalent in UK racing until

the big name stables came aboard ... the godolphins the coolmores etc

and the races THEY elect to pacemake ...

smaller stables did not do this ... and now do not do this pacemaking as a rule

.. they dont have the resources ... it is only the SETUP races the big stables put on ... to try and get their horses to STUD ... that's the big bucks

... it sure aint the p!sspoor prizemoney they are racing for lol

Waterhouses don't do things like that...Next you'll be telling me that Gurners Lane got a cart up ffs lol

That's going back awhile now though ..surely they didn't?

GAI did the same at Rosehill Herculian Prince big leader and makes race for stable mate Kinnersly.Just another Sydney boat race,atleast in the UK you no who the pacemaker is.