calculating exacta and trifecta divvies

Give me a couple minutes I have a few things to do.
but Harville is wrong because it biases favorites

ty,I thought his bias was the other way per my example

http://forum.punterslounge.com/threads/23252-Working-out-betfair-place-odds

The Discounted Harville addresses the inadequacies of Harville.

But unless you happen know the Lambda or Rho for your caper, it ain't going to help you much.

Didn't read his link but did that answer your question?

sort of.i guess i'm looking for a table of probabilities that seems more realistic.

PM

No such table of probabilities exists.

Benter's HK lecture illustrated the problem he couldn't solve.

The contenders have (possibly different) performance distributions.

Even if you knew them there is still a massive computational effort required to get them.

ok thanks for your input.

The guys in the link are using beta as 1 when that would just get back to ziggys original problem.. I dont think there is that correlation unless its maybe top 2 in the market and the rest of field with zero chance...Or is that correct

If people are using these models to trade then obviously it opens up the place market for scalping by form students

I thought he correct Harville?
Using MLE and he figured 0.82 was the constant
p1 = 0.4
p2 = 0.3
p3 = 0.2
p4 = 0.1

p1= 0.4(0.82)/p1(0.82)+p2(0.82)+p3(0.82)+p4(0.82) = x1

x1 * x2 / 1 - x1


or something along the lines of this..any help JFC?

Ziggy you could do an excel VBA short course for 3-4 hundred and I'm sure you could just ask them how to do it or show you how to work it out

I can send you a spreadsheet if you wish via email.

If you are using betfair win prices as the basis of your calculations the alpha / beta need to be 1. These variables does the probability to account for any fav / longshot bias (which is almost non existent on betfair)

If you want to do it on Australian racing don't waste your time. Quinella / Exacta approximates even after the race has started aren't remotely close to the final dividends.

Googling for

discount harville formula

should give you many hits.

The first one for me was that of Alan Woods the deceased mentor of Zeljko Ranogajec.

Who should make any number of shysters richer when chomping into his billion dollar estate, with dubious tax implications.

Anyway if you trawl through the hits perhaps something might enlighten you.

If you want the spreadsheet using Normal Distribution to figure it out just PM me

Dark Target,

even if you have Betfair Odds (very close to True Odds) your coefficients are not 1.

Something like 0.89  and 0.69 from memory.

But these vary depending on the underlying performance distributions.

Believe me, I've tested it with everything form .01 to 1 and the closer to 1 the better the results (for me).

Either way, you won't have any joy doing it on our markets.

You could box the 2 most "profitable" runners at start time and get a return of about 9% without even worrying about the quinella odds. The quinella odds seem to be inextricably tied to the tab win odds which are horribly inaccurate...

I've also given this subject extensive attention.

When a favourite wins he uses up many above average performances.

Therefore when it does not win it is competing with below average performances for a place.

Making his place probabilities below the Harville estimates.

To my knowledge for every continuous unimodal distribution in existence:

The favourite will underperform for 2nd.

DT
LoL and we know why that is.

I can see you shaking your head as you type.

P.S.You getting itchy fingers yet ?? I suggest you've already made bookings for Dec.

ok i follow you dt

would building two models work? 1 for the actual probability based on win odds and 1 based on what tab punters are going to bet on, ie patterns of over betting a standout fav... rather then relying on projected dividend before the race?

Cant wait 8ball, can't come soon enough!

i'm computer illiterate and mathmatically challenged..so most of what is being said is well over my head.

I do my own markets on greyhounds.Over a long period these markets have proven to be more accurate than other markets in the marketplace,hence I win regularly.My exotic betting is haphazard and based more on instinct ,than on a precise formula,hence my POT is nowhere near as healthy as my win POT.I would like to change this.

It would appear that my humanities background has left me a long way behind the eightball,lol.

Further the more random elements of greyhound racing (interference means that using win odds only to determine placegetters is fraught with even more danger than the thoroughbreds),insist that any plan must be copious and detailed by nature....perhaps its unachievable

Unclee that is something that interests me greatly, and something ill look into greatly if what I'm doing now ultimately fails.

Predicting where the late money will go and hence what will be over bet in the last seconds.

Ziggy if your markets are accurate, I would suggest you could box quinella / exacta the 2 most profitable dogs in the win market just prior to jump (providing their win expectancy is greater than 1) will be profitable on their own.

Horses / dogs that are underbet in the win market are generally underbet in exotic markets too

agreed DT,but i'm sure that an automatic device would find all overs and as such extract all the value from the market

But the proportion of the pool on a lot of these QUIN/EXCT markets that gets dumped in the last 60-30-15 secs pre-jump, coupled with the post-jump money means said approxs are more likely than not to be wishy-washy. I think?

The only problem with all of this is the approximates are really no guide to what the final dividend will pay. Something that looks am overlay quinella, exacta etc... will be overbet by every man and their dog that is using Harville, Henerey, Stern or whoever else's formula at the jump

Correct balls

Well I posted Benter's correction on Harvilles
although  x1 * x2 / 1 - x1
is
p1 * x2 / 1 - x1

Cannot get my ahead around these statistical programs

jfc, 0.81 , 0.65

yes it is wishy washy but that doesnt mean wishy washy is necessarily bad for you

something im sure you could do right away ziggy is have a spreadsheet work out the optimal amount you should invest in exotics before you start eroding your value, markets might move against your position i suppose though

Thats Harvilles nic, and its not corrected in any way

0.81 and 0.65 were found by Benter

You will find unclee the biggest overlays prior to jump end up being the biggest underway once final due to the reasons in my 3rd last post

Yes that's right, they were the optimum coefficients for the Hong Kong tote.

The formula above is the standard harville formula

Uncleee

I have been taking trifecta, using a computer program and my own prices, for nearly 20 years.

Over that time, I have found that once the amount you are investing. climbs over 5% of the total pool, you start to dilute your value.

Anyway I've said enough.

Isn't Harville formula

(1-takeout)*(1-p1)/p1*p2

Which is a straight formula..


0.4(0.82)/p1(0.82)+p2(0.82)+p3(0.82)+p4(0.82

While the above would require R or a program of the like would it not?

(pI * pJ)/(1-pI)

Google victor_lo.pdf for a full description of the models, should be the first site

No, its easy to do in any programming language ( if you know how to code)

I do not mean to come off rude,I can hardly remember reading all this.

But I thought the constant 0.85 , 0.65 had to be worked out with MLE , R, XLSTAT or some sort?

Then may I ask why you said its hardly a corrected sum when Harville is a straight 1+1=2 formula and what I proposed earlier is the same as Harville when average joe can work out Harville but not this stuff?

If you are unable to code it yourself then perhaps, but those stat programs can't test what the actual profit would be as far as I'm aware.

It would be difficult for the ordinary horse player to calculate and compute this formula

This is true.

You would be better off doing what was suggested earlier,exotic all your overs and even dogs near your price as place/win chances

I believe your expertise and understanding on this subject may beyond the understanding of this thread

Anyway you clearly know what you're doing,have a good day.

Thank you, same to you Nic

castiron, do you think that holds for quin/exactas or would those pools be open to timing as well? due to people placing bets on overs according to pre race odds... so you could get above 5% without eroding by deliberately putting small bets on earlier to trigger other software programs to take up the overs on other runners and create a sort of equilibrium?

good luck to you all. No idea what any of the stuff on this thread means. But if it works nobody can argue with success

Thanks whoopi, yours is the only post I understood. .

I would have thought the takeout rates would make it challenging to maintain long term "overs"on the exotics.

If you look at the Tab site and click results, a few minutes after the race is finished all the dividends come up, including exactas and trifectas. No need for complex formulas.

my head hurts

obviously there will be a favourite bias and a percentage of markets will be out because of a big betting owner etc but wouldn't the easiest way be to look at a sample of races and see if there is a pattern???

i.e. do a spreadsheet that multiplies out your prices by a "factor" to give the dividend that you expect and then compare that to the actual dividend - then vary the "factor" until you get as close as possible on a majority of races

bit of work - but i guess if you can find the right factor it would be worthwhile and it would be specific to your ratings rather than a theoretical formula

actually - the other way would be to look at say 100 races (to start with) you know the results for already - put in your prices and the dividend and work out what "factor" you need to multiply them by to get there.  Then look at the results and see if there are patterns in the "factor"

my 1.5 cents worth - probably doesn't make sense but thought I'd throw it out there

Look you're better off making your own selections via your prices. Essentially put prices higher then your own as 1st,2,3 and prices that are $1 - $1.5 off your price as 2,3 for the tris. A program will only spit out all the combinations and pay offs(Which would be inaccurate due to late money and rebates). But I recommend what DT said, put your overs in but more important the Quinella as it is the easiest exotic to beat.

wrap your head around this

http://bet4place.com/user/image/efficiencyofthemarketforracetrackbetting.pdf

Unclee

Yes,no difference with quinellas and exactas.

I have never tried, what you are suggesting, but it does seem plausible.

this one is a bit easier

http://www.sharpsportsbetting.com/forums/free/racing/index.cgi/noframes/read/89

Market efficiency is just getting the win percent of odds to see if there's an edge.For instance $10 might win 11%,so you would want to back every $10 or Caulfield 1200 favorites under $2 might win 33% of the time and so on.