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19 Mar 12
19:58
Joined:
Date Joined:
28 May 11
if at all...
A tax on turnover seems nothing more than a tax on efficiency to me.
I'm still baffled by the initiative of the robinhoodtax (robinhoodtax.org) supporting a 'financial transactions tax' which is a tax on turnover. A lot of organisations have voiced their support, including oxfam, which I find odd.
Here is a paragraph from their website.
http://www.oxfam.org.uk/applications/blogs/pressoffice/2012/03/19/small-change-the-robin-hood-tax-is-worth-fighting-for/
A 0.05% tax on financial transactions, small change to an industry of millionaires, is still apparently big enough to make the UK government quiver.
Well obviously a 0.05% tax is HUGE, if a firm is making a 0.1% profit on these transactions. It would be a 50% tax on profit before operating expenses, after which it is taxed again. Any ultra efficient firm would be driven out of business by such a tax.
So if people in certain industries are deemed to be making disproportianally large profits, why not increase tax on that profit instead?
Any insights?
A tax on turnover seems nothing more than a tax on efficiency to me.
I'm still baffled by the initiative of the robinhoodtax (robinhoodtax.org) supporting a 'financial transactions tax' which is a tax on turnover. A lot of organisations have voiced their support, including oxfam, which I find odd.
Here is a paragraph from their website.
http://www.oxfam.org.uk/applications/blogs/pressoffice/2012/03/19/small-change-the-robin-hood-tax-is-worth-fighting-for/
A 0.05% tax on financial transactions, small change to an industry of millionaires, is still apparently big enough to make the UK government quiver.
Well obviously a 0.05% tax is HUGE, if a firm is making a 0.1% profit on these transactions. It would be a 50% tax on profit before operating expenses, after which it is taxed again. Any ultra efficient firm would be driven out of business by such a tax.
So if people in certain industries are deemed to be making disproportianally large profits, why not increase tax on that profit instead?
Any insights?
Show More
I meant yes, as in yes, it makes sense.
If anyone can think of another way to slow down the capture of the entire market by HFTs at the expense of just about everyone else except themselves and the exchange, other than to pull the plug (literally) all together, please post it.
If anyone can think of another way to slow down the capture of the entire market by HFTs at the expense of just about everyone else except themselves and the exchange, other than to pull the plug (literally) all together, please post it.
But what would be the problem of HFTs capturing the entire market (or a large chunk of it) in the first place?
When you say 'at the expense of everybody else', I assume you mean the competitors operating the old fashioned way. Why should the 'old style' market makers etc. enormous margins be protected? The vast majority of market participants would be better off with the smaller spreads.
Dubious practices by HFTs aside (which will be dealt with by regulators in the medium to long term), I can't see a reason for a tax on turnover other than to protect the established players at the expense of the HFTs?
When you say 'at the expense of everybody else', I assume you mean the competitors operating the old fashioned way. Why should the 'old style' market makers etc. enormous margins be protected? The vast majority of market participants would be better off with the smaller spreads.
Dubious practices by HFTs aside (which will be dealt with by regulators in the medium to long term), I can't see a reason for a tax on turnover other than to protect the established players at the expense of the HFTs?
What would be the problem?
I don't know, call me old fashioned, but for starters I hate having fast machines front run all of my trades and scalping money from me. I also miss the volume that represents real markets not ones that are churning all day by machines that are passing stocks back and forth to each other with an upward bias, while every retail trader says "enough" and goes on vacation. Who knows, may be even a little price discovery would be nice too one of these days.
Oh yes, I don't think you've clued in yet that those "competitors" you speak of is YOU and ME if you are trading these markets.
And finally, I'll let you in on a secret......THERE ARE NO REGULATORS just the illusion of ones.
I don't know, call me old fashioned, but for starters I hate having fast machines front run all of my trades and scalping money from me. I also miss the volume that represents real markets not ones that are churning all day by machines that are passing stocks back and forth to each other with an upward bias, while every retail trader says "enough" and goes on vacation. Who knows, may be even a little price discovery would be nice too one of these days.
Oh yes, I don't think you've clued in yet that those "competitors" you speak of is YOU and ME if you are trading these markets.
And finally, I'll let you in on a secret......THERE ARE NO REGULATORS just the illusion of ones.
big time trader melly.
gets up early each day and does he check the news? no.
does he check the overnight action? no.
does he start planning his trades for the day? no
does he take a shower? no.
he logs onto the betfair financial forum
at 5.46am?
who in the hell logs onto this forum at that hour? to do what? oh yeh- check out the posts and see what that aggravating aussie is posting no doubt
what a small life you must lead melly, you poor sad individual when the most important thing to do as soon as you wake is log on to this forum and check out whats been said.
fkkk me- GET YOURSELF A LIFE MAN!
agree with melly here. Call me crazy, but how about we actually go back to a market whos main purpose, shock horror, is to allow people to invest in companies?
Yeah front running is obviously a big no-no, giving certain participants faster info than others is something that shouldn't be allowed. I think something should be done about server location as well, where rather than this being a race, the exchange itself has to give everyone equally fast access from a location they designate (if this is feasible technically).
Not sure what you mean with this though: "And finally, I'll let you in on a secret......THERE ARE NO REGULATORS just the illusion of ones." ?
Whippet, if the unfair advantages like being able to front run orders are removed and HFTs are reduced to nothing more than lightning fast low margin/high turnover market makers, this would be good for investors. Someone who wants to invest in a company and benefit from the income realized by that company rather than short term fluctuations in the value of the stock, is going to benefit from the tighter spreads that HFTs help to create.
Not sure what you mean with this though: "And finally, I'll let you in on a secret......THERE ARE NO REGULATORS just the illusion of ones." ?
Whippet, if the unfair advantages like being able to front run orders are removed and HFTs are reduced to nothing more than lightning fast low margin/high turnover market makers, this would be good for investors. Someone who wants to invest in a company and benefit from the income realized by that company rather than short term fluctuations in the value of the stock, is going to benefit from the tighter spreads that HFTs help to create.
By the way, regardless of the interests of people active in these markets, does such a tax on turnover make sense in terms of actually raising more tax than an increase in tax on profit would?
Response to your first post:
First of all, I don't think you quite understand how HFT works. The exchange is not "giving" them faster information, the available "information" (bids and offers) is the same as it has always been. What it has given them (under the justification that they are market makers) is the ability to connect into its system with superfast computers to take advantage of the bid/offer spread and literally scalp every trade at the expense of other participants. So saying " the exchange itself has to give everyone equally fast access from a location they designate" is a nonstarter, not only from a technical standpoint but from an economic standpoint. I doubt the overwhelming majority of retail investors (as in all), or actually even institutional investors (as in most), have the technical sophistication, the financial resources and the trading volume required to perform HFT. It's a scam that benefits only HFT outfits and the exchange. It's yet other failure of regulators to provide a level playing for participants and it goes on in broad daylight every day.
If you don't understand what I mean by "there are no regulators, just the illusion of ones" then you haven't been following events closely since 2007. Or, may be you think this financial crisis was an act of God, an unstoppable force of nature, a totally unpredictable disaster. Rules were broken, often with the full knowledge of the regulators, and the financial system failed (yes, failed!!!) at a tremendous cost to the taxpayer. Who was held responsible? Who has gone to jail? What has really changed since?
Banks broke the rules and failed and are now supported by taxpayer money. Who was held accountable? Who went to jail? What has changed in the way they do business today? Insurance companies broke the rules and failed, again needing massive government bailouts. Who was held accountable? Who went to jail? Investment houses broke the rules and collapsed, wiping away customer equity and leaving nothing but carnage in their way. Who was held responsible? Who got thrown in jail?
MF Global that recently "vaporized" $1.5bn of customer money was transferring customer money to JPM same day they filed for bankruptcy. If that isn't criminal intent, I don't know what is. Who has been indicted? Who's going to jail?
The metals markets are manipulated every day. The CFTC has reams of evidence that it's been done, and how it's been done, yet continues to have an open "investigation" for over three years now and continues to look the other way. Position limits that the CFTC announced will be implemented over two years ago are still not in place and they keep getting pushed further and further into the future. Is CFTC the regulator, or the protector of the bullion banks?
The oil market is being openly manipulated (read this resent piece by Chris Cook http://atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/NC21Dj03.html) yet the regulators look the other way. Where are they, whose interest do they serve?
The equity markets are blatantly manipulated by the FED (this is not just my view, this is the view of many an educated market observer - the list is long). Where are the regulators?
Where are the regulators?
Where are the regulators?
THERE ARE NO FECKING REGULATORS JUST THE ILLUSION OF ONES.
P.S. I'm not posting at 5am, only a clown thinks that, just from a different time zone. Long ways from home all week, some of us have to travel and work for a living. Fantasizing about making 10 years wages in two minutes doesn't enhance my family's lifestyle, doing what I do and getting paid the money I make does.
First of all, I don't think you quite understand how HFT works. The exchange is not "giving" them faster information, the available "information" (bids and offers) is the same as it has always been. What it has given them (under the justification that they are market makers) is the ability to connect into its system with superfast computers to take advantage of the bid/offer spread and literally scalp every trade at the expense of other participants. So saying " the exchange itself has to give everyone equally fast access from a location they designate" is a nonstarter, not only from a technical standpoint but from an economic standpoint. I doubt the overwhelming majority of retail investors (as in all), or actually even institutional investors (as in most), have the technical sophistication, the financial resources and the trading volume required to perform HFT. It's a scam that benefits only HFT outfits and the exchange. It's yet other failure of regulators to provide a level playing for participants and it goes on in broad daylight every day.
If you don't understand what I mean by "there are no regulators, just the illusion of ones" then you haven't been following events closely since 2007. Or, may be you think this financial crisis was an act of God, an unstoppable force of nature, a totally unpredictable disaster. Rules were broken, often with the full knowledge of the regulators, and the financial system failed (yes, failed!!!) at a tremendous cost to the taxpayer. Who was held responsible? Who has gone to jail? What has really changed since?
Banks broke the rules and failed and are now supported by taxpayer money. Who was held accountable? Who went to jail? What has changed in the way they do business today? Insurance companies broke the rules and failed, again needing massive government bailouts. Who was held accountable? Who went to jail? Investment houses broke the rules and collapsed, wiping away customer equity and leaving nothing but carnage in their way. Who was held responsible? Who got thrown in jail?
MF Global that recently "vaporized" $1.5bn of customer money was transferring customer money to JPM same day they filed for bankruptcy. If that isn't criminal intent, I don't know what is. Who has been indicted? Who's going to jail?
The metals markets are manipulated every day. The CFTC has reams of evidence that it's been done, and how it's been done, yet continues to have an open "investigation" for over three years now and continues to look the other way. Position limits that the CFTC announced will be implemented over two years ago are still not in place and they keep getting pushed further and further into the future. Is CFTC the regulator, or the protector of the bullion banks?
The oil market is being openly manipulated (read this resent piece by Chris Cook http://atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/NC21Dj03.html) yet the regulators look the other way. Where are they, whose interest do they serve?
The equity markets are blatantly manipulated by the FED (this is not just my view, this is the view of many an educated market observer - the list is long). Where are the regulators?
Where are the regulators?
Where are the regulators?
THERE ARE NO FECKING REGULATORS JUST THE ILLUSION OF ONES.
P.S. I'm not posting at 5am, only a clown thinks that, just from a different time zone. Long ways from home all week, some of us have to travel and work for a living. Fantasizing about making 10 years wages in two minutes doesn't enhance my family's lifestyle, doing what I do and getting paid the money I make does.
Response to your second post:
Instead of engaging in another endless and meaningless debate, ask yourself these questions:
1. Who is vehemently opposed to a financial transaction tax?
2. Why?
3. Cui bono?
As always, follow the money and you'll get your answers. Then all kinds of lights will go on.
Instead of engaging in another endless and meaningless debate, ask yourself these questions:
1. Who is vehemently opposed to a financial transaction tax?
2. Why?
3. Cui bono?
As always, follow the money and you'll get your answers. Then all kinds of lights will go on.
SEC Probes Rapid Trading
BY SCOTT PATTERSON AND JEAN EAGLESHAM
Federal securities regulators are examining whether some sophisticated, rapid-fire trading firms have used their close links to computerized stock exchanges to gain an unfair advantage over other investors, people familiar with the matter say.
The wide-ranging probe, being handled by the enforcement staff of the Securities and Exchange Commission, is focusing on the computer-driven trading platforms of exchanges, including BATS Global Markets Inc., the people said.
The SEC probe illustrates a bigger push by regulators to examine less-transparent parts of the securities markets, such as the fast-growing area of so-called high-frequency trading. High-speed trading firms use powerful computer systems for ...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304636404577297840134760650.html?mod=djemalertNEWS
Nothing will come out of this, it's all smoke and mirrors. The ones that are supposed to stop the crime are actually the ones who help perpetrate the crime.
BY SCOTT PATTERSON AND JEAN EAGLESHAM
Federal securities regulators are examining whether some sophisticated, rapid-fire trading firms have used their close links to computerized stock exchanges to gain an unfair advantage over other investors, people familiar with the matter say.
The wide-ranging probe, being handled by the enforcement staff of the Securities and Exchange Commission, is focusing on the computer-driven trading platforms of exchanges, including BATS Global Markets Inc., the people said.
The SEC probe illustrates a bigger push by regulators to examine less-transparent parts of the securities markets, such as the fast-growing area of so-called high-frequency trading. High-speed trading firms use powerful computer systems for ...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304636404577297840134760650.html?mod=djemalertNEWS
Nothing will come out of this, it's all smoke and mirrors. The ones that are supposed to stop the crime are actually the ones who help perpetrate the crime.
It is not a crime.
Did you know?
This forum owes its existence to high-frequency trading?
Betfair founder Andrew Black worked in New York on a HF trading-platform. He later adapted it for trading sports and Betfair was born!
Did you know?
This forum owes its existence to high-frequency trading?
Betfair founder Andrew Black worked in New York on a HF trading-platform. He later adapted it for trading sports and Betfair was born!
What exactly is not a crime? Stealing from you in broad daylight? Is that it?
That's the problem with every illusion, fraud, wealth transfer mechanism and money stealing scheme that comes out of Wall St. Clueless lemmings not only couldn't see through the scam to save their life, they actually promote and perpetrate the scam through their ignorance - while totally convinced they know and understand exactly what's taking place.
Saying this forum owes its existence to HFT is patently nonsensical but had you said punters on here are regularly scalped because Betfair gives direct access to their platform to some who trade at considerable higher speeds that the overwhelming majority of the rest of the punters on here, then you may have been on to something.....for a change.
P.S. You've come a long ways commenting on HFT when a mere few weeks ago you didn't even know the servers were on the floor of the exchange.
That's the problem with every illusion, fraud, wealth transfer mechanism and money stealing scheme that comes out of Wall St. Clueless lemmings not only couldn't see through the scam to save their life, they actually promote and perpetrate the scam through their ignorance - while totally convinced they know and understand exactly what's taking place.
Saying this forum owes its existence to HFT is patently nonsensical but had you said punters on here are regularly scalped because Betfair gives direct access to their platform to some who trade at considerable higher speeds that the overwhelming majority of the rest of the punters on here, then you may have been on to something.....for a change.
P.S. You've come a long ways commenting on HFT when a mere few weeks ago you didn't even know the servers were on the floor of the exchange.
Oh you mean a moral crime.
I would not presume to judge.
I would not presume to judge.
Doesn't particularly matter to me as I am not a day nor a month trader but as a general principle, I agree that with a transeaction-tax.
Since when is theft merely a moral crime? Last I checked theft was considered a crime since about the time the Romans walked these isles.
And if you are on these markets should care, regardless if you are a buy and hold investor, a month trader, or a day trader. Or is stealing from you less frequently make it less of a theft than stealing from you blatantly every day?
At least you got the transaction tax part right - but unfortunately it'll never be implemented. Those who really call the shots have already said no.
And if you are on these markets should care, regardless if you are a buy and hold investor, a month trader, or a day trader. Or is stealing from you less frequently make it less of a theft than stealing from you blatantly every day?
At least you got the transaction tax part right - but unfortunately it'll never be implemented. Those who really call the shots have already said no.
Ah, you mean a crime like wearing a striped tie with a check shirt. I'm with you, Menelaus.
Yeah, that's precisely what I meant ////// sarc.
You are a notoriously slow learner but I knew eventually even you would catch on.
You are a notoriously slow learner but I knew eventually even you would catch on.
Well I'm sure the perpetrators will be quaking to learn that they may be arrested by the fashion police.
it makes sense if you see reducing turnover as a positive development. many of the advocates of this tax probably think that way.
If anyone can make a good case on how allowing hitting a symbol with 75,000 quotes per second, and then immediately cancelling them before they leave the exchange network, is healthy "turnover" for the market, then I'll change my mind. As it stands now, the only purpose for this kind of activity and speed is to manipulate price movements. Quote cancellation fees and a transaction tax are a possible way to contain the monster. The other simple way is to force everyone who hits a symbol with a quote to hold it for 60 seconds.
charlatan
Date Joined: 06 Nov 01
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When: 31 Mar 12 12:16
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| Topic/replies: 1,505 | Blogger: charlatan's blog
it makes sense if you see reducing turnover as a positive development. many of the advocates of this tax probably think that way.
That's the way I see it charlatan. A tax on turnover reduces turnover. I can understand some people on this thread being in favour of it. What I can't understand is why an organisation like Oxfam would be in favour of it and actually believe it will raise money that can be used for charity.
That's just seem completely ridiculous to me.
Date Joined: 06 Nov 01
Add contact | Send message
When: 31 Mar 12 12:16
Joined:
Date Joined: 06 Nov 01
| Topic/replies: 1,505 | Blogger: charlatan's blog
it makes sense if you see reducing turnover as a positive development. many of the advocates of this tax probably think that way.
That's the way I see it charlatan. A tax on turnover reduces turnover. I can understand some people on this thread being in favour of it. What I can't understand is why an organisation like Oxfam would be in favour of it and actually believe it will raise money that can be used for charity.
That's just seem completely ridiculous to me.
Menelaus, bear in mind that this doesn't exclusively hit the HFT guys, but anyone else operating to minuscule margins.
Any specific problems related to what is effectively 'cheating' should be dealt with in other ways than just blanket covering the whole thing with a turnover tax.
Any specific problems related to what is effectively 'cheating' should be dealt with in other ways than just blanket covering the whole thing with a turnover tax.
You either get it, or you don't. No offense intended.
Yes, it's true, it does not just hit the HTF outfits, it hits us all.......but it's a small price to pay to reign in those who scalp from the retail investor each and every day......and in the long run it will be a savings for the average retail investor.
Remind me again, how is 10,000 quotes per second good for "turnover"?
The problem in my opinion is that most, if not all, posters on here don't have a clue how the HFT outfits really work and how they have managed to virtually completely take over the markets today. Again, no offense intended, I just call it as I see it.
Yes, it's true, it does not just hit the HTF outfits, it hits us all.......but it's a small price to pay to reign in those who scalp from the retail investor each and every day......and in the long run it will be a savings for the average retail investor.
Remind me again, how is 10,000 quotes per second good for "turnover"?
The problem in my opinion is that most, if not all, posters on here don't have a clue how the HFT outfits really work and how they have managed to virtually completely take over the markets today. Again, no offense intended, I just call it as I see it.
That's 10,000 quotes PER SYMBOL per second........just to be clear.
Here we go again.
The whole debate on HFTs is riddled with conflicting opinions over the whole spectrum of individual investors, money funds, politicians, academics. Is it increasing/decreasing makt efficiency, is it improving price discovery or just allowing cheating frontrunning, would a tax increae or decrease tax returns etc etc etc. And yet Menelaus comes on here with his absolute opinion and condescendingly says you either get it or don't.
I would suspect that it is a long time since someone as patently smart as Investor has been so talked down to ( he is however taking it in surprisingly good spirit tbh).
Does anybody wonder exactly what is in Menelaus's DNA, as he so rudely tries to put down polyblot ?.
Come on folks, this guy has become more than just a predictable, histrionic ranter and raver, he has become a positive menace on here. Rudeness personified to say the least. Bearable perhaps if he was an original genius of some description, but does anybody really think he is that ?.
If you do, then please speak up in his defence. I would be most interested to hear your arguments on this point.
The whole debate on HFTs is riddled with conflicting opinions over the whole spectrum of individual investors, money funds, politicians, academics. Is it increasing/decreasing makt efficiency, is it improving price discovery or just allowing cheating frontrunning, would a tax increae or decrease tax returns etc etc etc. And yet Menelaus comes on here with his absolute opinion and condescendingly says you either get it or don't.
I would suspect that it is a long time since someone as patently smart as Investor has been so talked down to ( he is however taking it in surprisingly good spirit tbh).
Does anybody wonder exactly what is in Menelaus's DNA, as he so rudely tries to put down polyblot ?.
Come on folks, this guy has become more than just a predictable, histrionic ranter and raver, he has become a positive menace on here. Rudeness personified to say the least. Bearable perhaps if he was an original genius of some description, but does anybody really think he is that ?.
If you do, then please speak up in his defence. I would be most interested to hear your arguments on this point.
If we only talk about intelligence, age is an important
factor (before one become senile). Investor is about
30 and Menelaus is 50+ I guess.
factor (before one become senile). Investor is about
30 and Menelaus is 50+ I guess.
Evolution, DNA and brain damages are other things to consider.
I did just read the last post again and it could be
interpreted wrong.
interpreted wrong.
LOOK! 
You either get it, or you don't. No offense intended.
theres only one way to see it- the melly way.ALL and I do mean ALL , other options are not an option.Option. Not an option- get it?
repeat after me '
"Remind me again, how is 10,000 quotes per second good for "turnover"?
and once again
The problem in my opinion is that most, if not all, posters on here don't have a clue how the HFT outfits really work and how they have managed to virtually completely take over the markets today. Again, no offense intended, I just call it as I see it.
I just call it as I see it. Remind me again. No other options ok?
Now I have to go.Bosworthington and I are going to me shiek al mahhood a ****aliman to see if I can buy an oil well. I need to save costs.
You either get it, or you don't. No offense intended.theres only one way to see it- the melly way.ALL and I do mean ALL , other options are not an option.Option. Not an option- get it?
repeat after me '
"Remind me again, how is 10,000 quotes per second good for "turnover"?
and once again
The problem in my opinion is that most, if not all, posters on here don't have a clue how the HFT outfits really work and how they have managed to virtually completely take over the markets today. Again, no offense intended, I just call it as I see it.
I just call it as I see it. Remind me again. No other options ok?
Now I have to go.Bosworthington and I are going to me shiek al mahhood a ****aliman to see if I can buy an oil well. I need to save costs.
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