Anyone who has wrote off Camelot....

probably not EG,But u can never tell with the Ballydoyle horses,But its clear that DOW did not run his race in the Lockinge,
Would have done well to be Farhh even if it did run up to form mimd,

i just think Camelot will turn the tables on Al Kazeem tomorrow,Wether that will win him the race remains to be seen.

afsare for me.

10f

1/1 at track

held up off strong pace

hughes up for first time

gonna win doing cartwheels

I remain to be convinced on Camelot

Good luck with that ilwab,0 from 8 in Group races thus far.

aye i know, but hes a price.

tomorrow is his day

he's finally got a decent jockey on too ilwab imvh

Far too many negatives/imponderables to warrant a wager for me

Think there will be a turn up of sorts in this race tomrrow, camelots guineas and derby wins don't look that good do they, is al kazeem a genuine group 1 horse, never, but does he need to be to win I suppose, I want to give myself a reason to back the fugue but can't quite find a good enough one, the french horse doesn't look anything special so might end up backing the godolphin thing at double figures as there might be a bit of improvement to come, shocking group 1 though.

The Curragh race had only four runners, one running to pick up fourth prizemoney.  It was a one furlong sprint.

I wouldn't like to be on Afsare after a few of its other pre-race antics but it does have talent and I read it had been doing a lot of stalls work and passed its test. I think it's a decent horse but just not shown that it's Gr1 standard yet but on the plus side there's little strength in depth in the race this year again.

If the jockey comment was partly for me Brother Mouzone then it must just be coincidence that from 4 of its wins that Fallon was on for 3 of them. Fallon 6 times Champion Jockey and 15 times a UK classic winner, Hughes 1 time Champion Jockey after about 20 years of trying and the same with getting off the mark in classics too and even taking into account Hughes weight, that's more than offset by the type of owner/trainers he has been riding for as well as Fallon's time out when banned and the lack of quality rides he's had since coming back.

Just joshing, it's almost beyond words what they've done to him tho, Hughes

I hope it wins tho, get those top two and frenchie beat.

Thank you Ima.

Perhaps you can explain the 'last half dozen previews' for me Motley? If I remember they were Excelebration (5/2) to win the Prix Jacques le Marios, Danedream (10/1)to win the King George, Carlton House (4th) in the QE11 and Dynaste (9/4) at Aintree. Have I missed something? I thought I rarely posted an opinion. I thought AK would win today, sadly I was wrong but if you follow my posts you will know that when I have a good bet I also have savers providing the price is right.

I think Camelot should win tomorrow because he has the best form. I know he was beaten last time but it wasn't truly run and he was 1/3 so 3/1 against similar opposition looks fair. It is a weak affair with lots of horses not normally capable of winning Gr1 races. It may be difficult backing Camelot because a saver looks out of the question with so many having chances if he fails to fire. This horse is AOB's pride and joy and he never wavered about the POW even after his defeat so I may just take the best offer going then lay off in running. I think he is certain to trade shorter as a few f these drop away. I may be wrong though Motley so accept my apologies in advance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YkwjmGYGgy8#t=113s

ima_mazed66 18 Jun 13 22:49 Joined: 12 Oct 09 | Topic/replies: 4,632 | Blogger: ima_mazed66's blog
Far be it for me to answer for brigust1 (but I'm going to anyway lol) but the key words you are missing there motley01 are the first four.....On all known form.

Do you honestly think that was Animal Kingdom's true level of ability in today's race considering the previous races it has run at the Breeders' Cup and Dubai World Cup meetings?

Yep, that is as good as he is, it's a sea horse, just a galloper, you could run that 20 times,
animal kingdom would never have won it. His form in Dubai was weak at best. Before that a mile and a half
horse beat it, over 9f So on all known form evens was absolutely crazy. So if your going to post
stuff like "On all known form", take a look at the fcuker first.

camelot  is a twelve to one shot on current  form , but statistically   a short priced  fav ...i would be tempted  from  six to one  and up ,
because you never know in this game

There is a lot going on just the one run here. Before the Irish race Al Kazeem was not only 3/1 to beat Camelot in a 2 horse race but he was probably a double figure price for the POW. All of that has changed completely on just that one race where the pacemakers never did their job and it was AK's big day but Camelot's prep race. AK was a double figure price and is now 9/4 whereas Camelot, 1/3 to beat AK, is now 7/2. Works for me.

The Mooresbridge was Camelots prep race for the Tattersalls, I'd say he was pretty forward that day and was beaten fair and square, if they left a bit to work on I wouldn't say they left an awful lot?.

Animal Kingdom ran juice free yesterday and it showed.

Its the easiest thing in the world to put up posts where someone has got it wrong,disagree with Brigust if you like but you cant deny he is a knowledgeable poster with a great love for racing.

OK then motley01 so seeing as though Animal Kingdom finished 11th of 13 (and one of those in behind totally blew the start) and AK beat Excelebration ½L in the Breeders' Cup Mile, so if that was AK's true form yesterday then obviously Excelebration would have finished 12th in yesterdays race, OK got it.

Presumably then Frankel would have been lucky to have finished in the frame too yesterday if using Excelebration as a yardstick?

Oh do me a favour me will u, you're clueless.

Just back in,  and viewedsaw the replays, camelot eh, not in the 3

This place is all knee-jerk, oneupmanship and agendas. Amazing how willing people are to ignore the obvious to suit an argument.

I was really disappointed with Camelot, mainly because this was such a poor race. I did what I said and took the 7/2 with PP and laid off at 9/4. Did touch 6/4 in running. Can't explain it but on form is 10 lengths better than Miblish, who ran to form with the 2nd horse, but Camelot beat it a length today. AOB says they will have to get tough with him now. We await the next race.

motley01
Oh do me a favour me will u, you're clueless.

Hmmm, says the person who thinks that was Animal Kingdom's true form yesterday.

Regarding Camelot brigust1, if they are going to perverse with him then they have to forget 10f races after today.

You may be right Ima but they have St Nic in the 12f races that is why I thought they were aiming for the 10f races with him. They must gallop them together at home, you would have thought. He has either got a problem or maybe needs blinkers. The Eclipse is 17 days away and Al Kazeem won't be going for that I doubt. So what wins the Eclipse and will St Nic beat Al Kazeem? I would have to say he would at this moment in time.

brigust, my initial reaction was that the Eclipse would be too soon for AK but when I watched it back I actually thought he won a shade cosily in the end.

They may give the Eclipse a miss though and wait for King George given the problems they have had with the horse and his trainers post race comments about wanting to win the Arc.

He's a smashing horse, for sure.

Farhh might come into the Eclipse equation depending how serious his setback is/was.

I'm stating Animal Kingdom, would never of won a GR1 mile race at Ascot, his run
in Dubai was a pointer to that. If you can't work that out, there's no point, now is there.

Camelot as I have voiced the opinion many times, was over hyped up from day 1.
Go through the form book, of his three gr1 wins at three, and it's all there, nothing
came out of these races, including him. When AOB is talking to the public about these
horses, he's talking to the breeders.

He is patently unable to compete with genuine GR1 horses over 1m 2 of indeed mile and half.
They can't go further than 1m. 4f, because he becomes less attractive to breeders, and command
a lower cover fee.

Gold Cup for Camelot next year!

Fastest standard time of the meeting so far; TIME 2m 3.06s (fast by 2.54s)
That has to be close to the track record.

Camelot a miler!!! drop back for the sussex... pacemaker for Declaration

About half a second outside.

And that's fair enough motley01 if that was you view and I don't think too many have a problem with that, what some might have a problem with and I include myself here is your claim that Animal Kingdom ran to form yesterday.

Maybe we should just put it down to exaggerated bravado on your part eh?

I advised coolmore to run camelotin the pathetic weak queen anne, now I tell you bring Camelot to a mile, doesn't stay further. ok he won derby but my shire house would have won that, so listen

The group 1 races this week are the poorest I can remember for the Royal meeting.

wrote off?

'written off'

oh- I give up

There is at least one blessing anyway, that being we won't be hearing from Adian that "this horse has the speed to win the July Cup."

I know AOB gets slaughtered for expressing his views but there has to be some basis in fact. I cannot see him saying this is the best he has trained without having at least something to go on. He may just be a morning glory or he may have a problem or he may need blinkers. I'm pretty sure the latter is on AOB's list now. His form is way below last season so the operation may have something to do with it.

And I wholeheartedly agree with AT. The Gr1 races this year are very poor. Of the others the Queen Mary and the Coventry winners did look exceptional.

retire him to stud

is it possible the horse needs a bit a cut? The only race it won on fast ground was the egg and spoon Derby

The current one usually tends to be the best he has trained but one thing for sure anyway is that neither Camelot nor St Nicholas Abbey are 10f horses, but he still insists on running them at that trip and the Coronation Cup would have been the ideal race for Camelot except they don't like to clash their horses unless it's a case of having to once they have established a pecking order and 3 times for St Nic was up for grabs.

Horses with so much speed don't usually require softer ground if you get my drift?.

I'm a speed rating merchant and Camelot has one high class speed rating lifetime

Irish Derby on heavy was relatively quick representing around 125 form, everything else is pedestrian compared to the best horses

so longer trip + softer ground needed

Irish St Leger?

Camelot is running up to 10 lengths below known form. I have a feeling blinkers may be fitted next time. He cruises along the fails to exert himself. With St Nic definitely going for the King George then Camelot must head to Sandown for the Eclipse although I think the King George would suit him better.

Silver, he is hardly a sprinter, where you might have more of an argument.

He didn't look like he was letting himself down today to me but there are a plethora of possible reasons for a poor run including he is not good enough.

Just a little tongue in cheek dontwin, for a horse that supposedly has so much speed seems to take a vertitable age for it to get going.

sorry, little slow tonight

there cant have been many horses with as many excuses made for them.
perhaps he just isnt as good as a mile and half round an odd course in surrey would suggest?

they should never have raced him at 4

correct. recognised below par crop and taken fees

In fairness if you were to accept that 12f is the distance he runs his best races at then ever other defeat is down to not being 12f.

Arguably he best form/run of all is his Arc run.

Camelot is running up to 10 lengths below known form.

AND WHAT FORM WOULD THAT BE EH, WHICH RUN?, THE FORM OF HIS THREE RUNS
HASN'T WORKED OUT AT ALL.

ANIMAL KINGDOM, IS A SEA HORSE, A BOAT, A ONE PACED GALLOPER, WHO COULDN'T BEAT A MILE AND HALF
HORSE OVER 9 FURLONGS ON FIRM GROUND.

I REALLY THINK YOU SHOULD PACK THIS GAME IN BRIGUST, IT'S JUST NOT FOR YOU

Caps lock? Oh dear.

Today Camelot beat Miblish about a length and was beaten 4 lengths by Mukhadram. Through Trumpet Major, Mukhadram and Main Sequence he should have been up to 10 lengths in front of Miblish which would put him 4 lengths in front of Mukhadram. As cross reference in fact through Main Sequence and Mukhadran he should also have been over 4 lengths in front of Mukhadram instead of 4 lengths behind him.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. I'll pull out of this
thread now, as these type of threads with you involved, tend to
go on and on and on. Have you got any good reads for tomorrow

Plus Camelot beat Sea Moon who beat Al Kazeem 8 lengths. So I think, for whatever reason I don't know, Camelot is running way below known form.

Then add to that the fact that betting showing Camelot 9/4 and Miblish 66/1 seems to confirm that there should be a good distance between the two.

You see that's the problem with people like Motley.

They come on here saying 'My kn@bs bigger than your kn@b' then when you show them your kn@b they just run away.

the known form is **** though, that's simple enough

as I said I have one run that measures anywhere near genuine group 1 form on my ratings, Irish Derby about 124 or 125 max, everything else is sub 120 and his 4yo runs all around 110, and I don't rate the Arc either

horse is just not very good

get him on soft at a longer trip and he might start showing something

take him stateside and get him juiced up to the eyeballs....win the arlington million like he did with that donkey powerscourt then retire him.

But Judorick this was hardly a Gr1 race was it. You have to judge by the runners not the name of the race I have been told often enough.

Al Kazeem was beaten in 2 Group 3's and I think today was his 11th run. Has he improved or is the opposition weaker? The horses that beat him were fair animals and if you completely remove Camelot that's about what he is doing now. I should think mid to high teens just about sums them up.

I judge by ratings and his are poor for a classic winner

lets face it he just isnt that good. hes quite good but not that good.
And these if if if arguments......
If my aunt was a man she'd be my uncle.
End of.

The question is 'Is Camelot better than St Nicholas Abbey?'

From the noises coming out of AOB's they must think he is plus he started 2/1f for the Arc and had St Nic well behind him.

I think the horse deserves a few more chances before it's condemned. Todays running certainly wasn't its true form. What's the hurry?

Not condemning him

just trying to put an accurate assessment on his ability, mid teens at best

has shown he produces his best form at 12 furlongs on soft or heavy and that would be around 124

pretty simple

Definitely much better easier ground.

he is no better than oath was, or benny the dip - or any other. On their day they did their age group at Epsom. it doenst mean they are a freak of nature.
Why is it that horse racing folk look for the fairytale every year.

The fairytale was frankel (and before that sea the stars and before that yadayada)

He's certainly not the best AOB's ever had; might have been as a 2yo, but that's as far as it goes.

Tbf, STS and Frankel were legit fairytales. It's only AOB that's putting camelot up where it clearly doesnt belong.

My point about St Nic is that they have met once and Camelot beat him. The vibes from the yard and the betting suggest that was the right result. The form of today's race also showed that Red Cadeaux and Dunaden, both beaten by St Nic, are also some way behind Camelot.

If that is right and if, as I believe, St Nic would beat Cirrus des Aigles in the King George if you look at their meeting in Meydan then where does that put Al Kazeem if, as some say, his form with Camelot is correct.

What a load of nonsense.
What about Galileo and High Chapperal - or have you forgotten those horses of a life time?
The punter loves the romance of it.

that was a garbage race today, puts Al Kazeem nowhere yet

not garbage but see Al Kazeem did what he had to do. He maybe is better but rest of them average

like a group 3 race

fairish point

runner up beaten in a handicap off 102 on his previous start

It wasn't a genuinely run race either. If AOB is going to run a pacemaker why doesn't he run a proper one. These pacemakers he uses are either ignored because everyone knows they are no good or don't get into the race properly. He should run a proper horse that cannot be left to have an easy lead. The 2nd horse nearly nicked it but I don't think he is Gr1 material at all.

i've seen most of the big horses live over the last 30 years, there was only one that was a bit special, although all of them great chamopions:

Halling, Pilsudski, Singspiel, Celtic Swing (mmm), Sea the Stars, Swain, Peint Celebre, Helissio, Montjeu (he was totally brilliant), Bosra Sham (astounding filly), and have to say Mark of Esteems turn of foot was gobsmacking on that day in 97.

Frankel - saw him twice and it was like watching Robo-horse

STS was never tapped IMO.... I'd put the horse up there with Frankel, but obviously not for wow factor.

bollox

Ok

i watched sts gallop and i watched frankel gallop and it was like watching allan wells against usain bolt. both good but ....

we're not talking good horses here

we are discussing substandard gr 1

SLightly off the beaten track, but I think it was you, Judorick, that said the Sandown classic trial was a far worse race than the Dante. Do you still think so?

yes but not really bothered, can't really remember what happened in those trials

handicaps is my thing really!

**** me you're game

I do well in turf handicaps

I don't like them, but when I do, an old man once told me to have a good look for any horse with form figures of '083' (I know numbers don't tell you the full story, but he wasn't a serious punter didn't study form...) I've had some big ones courtesy of that old bugger. He's dead now

older horses only, class 3 and higher, no fillies only, strong recent form in handicap

simple

Brigust seems to be grasping at straws, so he finished in front of St Nic but he was also in receipt of 8lb and there was also the possibility that St Nics real target was the Breeders Cup turf again?.

Nashwan had Cacoethes 7Ls behind at Epsom but only a neck separated them in the King George.
Nashwans early season superiority was starting to be eroded.

Camelot met Al Kazeem twice and was comprehensively outpointed both times, horses do improve and Al Kazeem fits that bill.
Pilsudski was only a handicapper as a 3yo but improved out of all recognition as he got older.

Silver I am trying to find out what other people think hence the questions. Sadly I don't know everything yet but I'm sure that day will come.
So if St Nic, Al Kazeem, Camelot and Cirrus des Aigles turn up in the King George on good ground who do you think wins it? And why?

St Nic for sure

If it was 10f I'd have Cirrus everytime but in the King George it would be tough to call between the 3, I couldn't have Camelot on my mind at all.

me neither

You see how it works Silver. You are obviously judging Al Kazeem on his defeats of Camelot because beating Mukhadram and Thomas Chippendale is clearly not Gr1  form at all.

And if those four did run how would you compare it and where would they finish if they ran in the '97 King George where Swain beat Pilsudski, Helissio and Singspiel?

al kazeem was deserving winner today and mukhadram was unlucky not to get a group 1 win, substandard group 1
race?, dont think so, the fugue is genuine group 1 horse and it finished 3rd today. al kazeem is still
improving thats why the horse just had enough to beat the other horse into second, time of the race backs
up the fact, was a good race. camelot never had a chance today, any good race reader, knew that wouldnt
be able to turn around the form with al kazeem, was powerfull display in ireland, well beaten that day, if
you believe wasnt ready that day, and ascot was the main target all along, didnt see that race in ireland.

I think it is self defeating still running Camelot

the only thing they are achieving is a reduction in his stud value

unless AOB know something we don't, it seems obstinacy

they should have been grateful for what they got from him when he was 3, and retired him

But isn't the real problem with using Camelot as a yardstick to measure horses like Al Kazeem the fact that Camelot might well be a dual Derby winner but the Derby isn't run at 10f?

I'd also forgive St Nic (or any horse for that matter) an iffy run in an 18 runner Arc on heavy ground too by the way. Especially if it was his 7th run of the season, all at middle distances, had been on the go since March of that season and where his first run of that season involved travelling to Dubai and where 5 of those 7 runs took place outside of the horse's own country.

To my  eyes the unlucky Horse  was The Fugue,  the  plan to track Camelot into the straight  and kick when he kicked  backfired on them , but she will win other races ,  so may Camelot  , not a forlorn hope for the Arc on that  run, might get a fair price now