Nick Luck - "Animal Kingdom could not get a grip on ...

Luck is a dead ringer for George Osborne and is another clueless posh boy imo.

Looks quite feasible actually. We know Stickels over-watered, then the track was hit by showers which can cause it to be loose on top. Velasquez was looking down after the first 2 furlongs.

Come on, johnny

You must have sen the equally, "LOOSE," 'kick-back' on the TAPETA at Meydan -

- and likewise for the DIRT surface at Churchill Downs.

the horse pulled like a mule simples

the books knew couldn't give it away

He pulled early on but then settled. He gets 10f. He was completely under-par today. Who knows why. He has had a history of injury problems. There is always a big question mark hanging over these overseas dirt horses coming to compete on the turf at Ascot. Why I am happy to be against Shea Shea in the next.

In the US Velasquez would have let it go on. But it did look wound-up before the start.

should've let him stride on....sure he might have got beaten by the same distance if not more but it would've surely been better than p ussying out of it at the half mile.

nice try though and glad he came over. nice horse.

The horse was worrying before the race, he was seriously edgy imo.

During the race the horse was  using up whatever energy he had left by deciding wtf was going on, he wanted to go faster like he is used to. He was in no fit state to race today.

johnnyrant     18 Jun 13 15:02

There is always a big question mark hanging over these overseas dirt horses coming to compete on the turf at Ascot.

------------------------

Sorry, johnnyrant - but do some homework, please.

The New, re-aligned, Ascot straight is Sand-based - and, consequently, suits horses who have shown their best, or equal, Form on the All-Weather.

Check past Results - They are full of them.

Animal Kingdom has only run 3 times on "Dirt" - and one of those was a defeat over a mile and a half.

He has run 4 times on Turf, previously - win a Win, and 3 2nds, including in the Breeder's Cup to the imperious Wise Dan.

The rest of his Form is made up of a Win on Tapeta - and 2 Wins and a second on Polytrack .....

So you cannot call him, "a DIRT horse." -
and given Ascot's propensity for suiting Polytrack horses - there can be no excuse on the lines of Racecourse conformation  ...

Which is what NICK LUCK stated - and, consequently, prompted my starting this thread.

Just to add:

1 Declaration Of War 15/2
2 Aljamaaheer 8/1
3 Gregorian 16/1

13 ran Distances: ¾l, ½l, 2l
TIME 1m 38.48s (fast by 0.52s)


1 Sole Power 8/1
2 Shea Shea 11/4F
3 Pearl Secret 10/1

19 ran Distances: nk, 1¼l, nk
TIME 58.88s (fast by 0.62s)

-------------

"Over-watered, loose on top." ?

There just Americanism's, buzz phrases, pure gibberish and mostly meaningless,
to make the speaker of such, appear with it "a shifting track", ffs
"The eight horse", "going forward",etc, when I hear people espouse these phrases, I
disengage from individual. But It don't annoy you so much, if you backed the winner

if true, you'd think it would also have impacted some of the other horses,no?

^ - for Nick LUCK

- when he looks in after the Community Singing has finished.

Whatever makes you feel better, onlooker. He's not familiar with UK turf racing, especially not going a straight mile on good UK turf - have you ever been to the US & seen the state of their turf? Totally different 'turf' overseas to our lush watered grass - hth

So - Now you are changing ANIMAL KINGDOM from ...

- an "overseas DIRT horse"  (johnnyrant 18 Jun 13 15:02)  -
- to a 'rock hard' TURF horse - are you?

Keep wriggling.

The very reason these plebians are needing employment instead of punting for a living.

No, just responding to you pointing to his overseas turf form. Not sure why you've got such a chip on your shoulder onlooker - did you back him heavily today. If so, bad luck.

ive just watched a recording and i'll swear you can actually see the track moving under their feet...kinda like quicksand....quite psychedelic

I have NOT got ANY, "chip on my shoulder." -

- and I did NOT have ANY bet on the RACE.

The original thrust of this thread was against Nivk LUCK ludicrous[/bv] assertion that ....


"Animal Kingdom could not get a grip on what is sometimes a shifting track, here."

When the horse had [b]quite clearly previously performed WELL on the, "shifting track," surfaces on both artificial TAPETA and American DIRT.

So Nick Luck's assumption was entirely without foundation.

Your first response supported him ...

Stating that - "We know Stickels over-watered, then the track was hit by showers"

However - When I pointed out the TAPETA and DIRT contradiction to that theory - you changed your tune to ...

" He pulled early on but then settled. He gets 10f. He was completely under-par today. Who knows why. He has had a history of injury problems."

- and then the race time became available -

TIME 1m 38.48s (fast by 0.52s)
----------------------------------

johnnyrant - My 'argument' is, predominantly, with Nick LUCK - and his assumption/STATEMENT - as initially posted .... and not with you -  although you have broadened the thread to try and justify the issue .

Before, somewhat sadly, resorting to the feeble, "chip on our shoulder," - and .... 'How much did you lose' - style of retort.

Often a sure sign that somebody is losing the debate.

"We know Stickels over-watered, then the track was hit by showers"


Blimey, over-watered + showers= good to firm...what do you think he should have been aiming for jonny? Firm to Hard?

Ascot is not a North American track
..more to do it with than going in my opinion
brave try by his connections

That Dubai World Cup form was never anything special
I did say so at time, as did others....so am not after timing
but did not back winner today
I only bet on proper racing

well done to those who pointed him out as a good lay

He was a good second to Wise Dan in the Breeders Mile...
but how far would the 4th  Excelebration have beaten him at Ascot
different track, different style of racing
just my opinion

Stickels' over watering is going to stop the Americans from coming back again, I reckon, which would be a real shame

these american horses spend their career running left handed tracks,i couldn't fancy it at that price going right handed .

Funnily enough, I remember an American horse winning this race, back in the sixties I think
Hill Rise, tough as teak 5 year old ..who was grass king in N.America
I was too young to back him I remember...20/1

If you are going to be a pedant onlooker, which appears to be your main issue, try to get your timeframe right. I posted prior to you getting worked up about his previous tapeta & turf races.

so nobody else can express same opinion can they..
you are one miserable fecker

pendant

you'd have to say, that horse was beaten long before the ground should have been a factor, it was in trouble far too early

if they do put up the turf/track as the reason after they've had the horse back for 24 hours i'd be pretty surprised, half expecting them to say they found something wrong

could be elise
should really have run  a little better, even if not winning

No Duncan - everyone said it was genuine good ground today. Just thought it was an unwise policy to water given the weather forecast & that was proven by Stickels saying he hoped the track missed today's showers.

Luck was understandably basing his suggestion on a replay which showed Velasquez looking down at the horse's hind legs. The jockey seemed to later confirm that wasn't to do with the horse losing his action.

gut reaction at the time was either sick or injured

i know he had a hock fracture & stress fractures previously, who knows, they might not even want to say with retirement beckoning, depends whether it is in their interests to put up a reason or just let it go

It pulled too hard for whatever reason.
End of.

yes salmon, could just have been no cover and pulled too hard, whatever it didn't look anything like the horses normal level of form

do you know sometimes I just wish theyd run on proper fast ground , ie firm.

Am I more interested in the views of a highly respected professional analyst who tipped up Nanton at 14-1 on Saturday and always speaks supremely good sense or some betfair forum nobody?

I`ll give it some thought.

windsor boy

i dont knock many people but Nick Luck is not the best with the form book,top anchor man i will give you though.

Jun 19, 2013 -- 7:06AM, windsor_boy wrote:

Am I more interested in the views of a highly respected professional analyst who tipped up Nanton at 14-1 on Saturday and always speaks supremely good sense or some betfair forum nobody?I`ll give it some thought.

Would be more interested in somebodys opinion that is making their money backing their tips.  Nearly impossible to believe anybody doing so is being paid to give tipping advice.....

elisjohn
19 Jun 13 05:39

do you know sometimes I just wish theyd run on proper fast ground , ie firm


enjoy your 6-runner races

I honestly would, nothing wrong with 6 to 10 runners races, much prefer them,  and as a layer on ante post market would suit me fine

Firm ground far to damaging to horses jarring them up damaging joints etc not worth the risk to run expensive animals on that kind of ground.

you wouldnt have a sport to ante-post bet on after 6 months!

im not saying hard ground , just firm, if my memory is right all the great horses ran on it, dancing brave, generous, shergar el gran, even teenoso a proper soft ground horse, ardross , cant think damaged them

The Flat Racing Game


Nick Luck < --------------- 1 million miles ----------------- > Onlooker

--------------------------------------------------------

elisjohn whether the horses you mention had no problem or not is not the point firm ground can damage horses and nowadays the cost of everything connected with horses is to high to take the risk.

Well I would have thought the cost involved in some of these horses that they would have to race them on firm ground if that is all that was going.

And I guess if the expensive animals were all waiting for something a little softer, at least they would have to target the same races and you might get some decent races, and true results.

It would dictate 1 thing.  You dodge the ground, or you dodge the horses.  Much better than what you have now.

Firm turf,which is what they have most of the time in the US is not as dangerous as dirt.
And think of all those expensive animals risked at Bath. Some must be worth 5000 Gns       

slightly off thread
someone accused me of being pedantic earlier

In my opinion, if we want to win, in this game , the more pedantic we are the better
the next race Animal Kingdom runs in, we need to have some idea of why he performed badly at Ascot, surely.
if we are going to bet on the race

there aint gonna be a next race for Animal Kingdom...he's off gettin jiggy, innit

I see...that's me told

If he's alright I would have thought they might have a crack at The Breeders Cup Classic. He has won the Kentucky Derby so he hardly dislikes the dirt,although Motion may think differently.
Too late for stud duties this year of course. I don't think they've much to lose and quite a bit to gain if he did win.

if you re-read the thread ebulgery think you'll find that johnny rant was calling onlooker a pedant

your post happened to get in the way

Jun 19, 2013 -- 11:29AM, ebulGery wrote:

slightly off threadsomeone accused me of being pedantic earlierIn my opinion, if we want to win, in this game , the more pedantic we are the betterthe next race Animal Kingdom runs in, we need to have some idea of why he performed badly at Ascot, surely.if we are going to bet on the race

Most likely it was one of 2 things that made him perform badly.

1.  He didn't have enough time to settle in and adjust to the smell.
2.  He made the fatal mistake of equating lots of horse teeth to lots of horses and thought he was in a race with 30k others....

Take him out of England, and back him hard, he should perform much better.

The stark reason for Animal Kingdoms poor run was he had to run clean,anyone sending a mare to him is raving mad as he will flop spectacularly at stud.

A lot of American stallions have been VERY successful. In fact they have more or less obliterated the old European lines so that doesn't really wash imo.

Animal Kingdom ran the exact same race as Gladiatorus did in the same race some years back.

I am not saying American stallions are no good but I am saying Animal Kingdom had help and generally drugged horses flop at stud.

DAY TWO
----------

Now NICK LUCK is trying to defend CAMELOT.

" He traveled as the best horse in the race"
-------------

But he did NOT Win the race - when the Buttons were pressed, Nick.

Jimbo and Cunningham told him to 'accept it' - Camelot 'not being the horse he had been trumped up to be' .....

- or wanted to be by the potential sire 'bull boys' at Ballydoyle.

Nick would not let go, though ...

"He's still a 120 horse, though," - being his closing retort.
------------------------

"120"

Where does that put him in the annals of greatness, Nick?