What happens to bets on others if bets on Novak are voided?

Not sure exactly how cash out works, does it back all, lay all, or just back the player you layed.
If it lays all other runners (the only method in which you can lose), it would have been throwing up more profit than it normally does, that would have been banked and taken if Djokovic played, so it would be unfair on the backers to void these bets now he isn't playing.
It would be better to see real examples though.

Just that player.

Same as greening up: back to lay or lay to back.

ah, no one has lost from cash out then.

Although democrat seems to suggest otherwise.

obvs the odds would have to move in your favour to get that option

never used it personally - maybe there's an option to take a loss or red up?

Sorry if I gave that impression blank I was just seeking opinions re the rights and wrongs of cashing out on the basis of a bet that has been voided. As for your previous point as to how the 'cash out profit' is achieved that is entirely down to the Betfair software and should, in this circumstance, not adversely affect the punter. My point is void the cash out transactions inextricably linked to what becomes a void bet. In these situations where the market allows for bets to be voided perhaps Betfair should seriously consider delaying the 'cash out facility' till void bets do not apply.

all bets on Novak will be voided & so therefore will any cash out

Thanks Wes. Here's hoping.

"Surely BF cannot void the lay bet without the associated bets to effect the profit ? "

of course they can

happens in soccer with VAR all the time

A post from another forum.

Dylan711 wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:24 pm
Hey guys just wanted your opinion on this.

I had some lay bets on the Aus Open Outright market on Djokovic. The odds drifted out and gave me a positive cash out option. For whatever reason, after I cashed out, betfair laid all the other players for varying amounts to give me say +$100 for all players. Thought it was weird but it was effectively a cash out by laying all players.

I then layed Novak again shortly after and I was immediately given a positive cash out and the same thing happened again (laid all other players). I did this multiple times but wasn’t able to continuously as some of the players had no liquidity so I had no cash option available. Just before Novak got booted (a couple hours ago) I had a completely green book for all players of about $1500. After Novak got voided, my book is now negative $8000 for every player. My balance is negative $3800. I have reached out to customer service but they are still discussing cash outs apparently for the market, what the **** that means. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, absolutely tilted off my head at the moment. Will have to take this to the Gaming Commission (I’m from Australia) if this doesn’t get sorted.

Ultimately, backers of other runners were taking into account the possibility of Novak being kicked out, they were asking for lesser odds than they otherwise would. So their bets shouldn't be voided, or they would have been in a situation in which they could never really win, Novak plays and they have negative value bets on other players, Novak doesn't play and bets are void which some are asking for. Layers are the opposite, nice profit if Novak plays, claim void if he doesn't.

Hopefully Betfair compensate anyone out of their own pocket. It's a relatively small amount, I think £2-3m matched on Novak and probably a tiny fraction of that through cash out.

I think there are crossed wires on here about whichy type of bets.

Different rules will apply to exchange and sportsbook.

Dylan711 owned himself pretty hard. There's no such thing as a free lunch Dylan!

backs / lays of other runners should not have been affected by this

if you had done your greening maually that would not have happened

no reason why cash out shouldbe different

Jan 16, 2022 -- 4:27PM, blank wrote:

A post from another forum.Dylan711 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:24 pmHey guys just wanted your opinion on this.I had some lay bets on the Aus Open Outright market on Djokovic. The odds drifted out and gave me a positive cash out option. For whatever reason, after I cashed out, betfair laid all the other players for varying amounts to give me say +$100 for all players. Thought it was weird but it was effectively a cash out by laying all players.I then layed Novak again shortly after and I was immediately given a positive cash out and the same thing happened again (laid all other players). I did this multiple times but wasn’t able to continuously as some of the players had no liquidity so I had no cash option available. Just before Novak got booted (a couple hours ago) I had a completely green book for all players of about $1500. After Novak got voided, my book is now negative $8000 for every player. My balance is negative $3800. I have reached out to customer service but they are still discussing cash outs apparently for the market, what the **** that means. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, absolutely tilted off my head at the moment. Will have to take this to the Gaming Commission (I’m from Australia) if this doesn’t get sorted.

he has done his money. best hope is to appeal to higher up and he might get a rebate of sorts.

I had a look at Betfair's twitter. He's not the only one. BF staff not being of much help, saying there were technical difficulties and they are looking into it.

they prbbaly just cancelled alll "cash outs"

they will have to do it all manually instead

novak bets canceelled

other bets stay

they prbbaly just VOIDED alll "cash outs"

Djokovic has been voided throughout on Sportsbook while all Exchange bets have been void on Djokovic in the Australian Open winner market. - Wayne

"A post from another forum.Dylan711 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:24 pmHey guys just wanted your opinion on this.I had some lay bets on the Aus Open Outright market on Djokovic. The odds drifted out and gave me a positive cash out option. For whatever reason, after I cashed out, betfair laid all the other players for varying amounts to give me say +$100 for all players. Thought it was weird but it was effectively a cash out by laying all players.I then layed Novak again shortly after and I was immediately given a positive cash out and the same thing happened again (laid all other players). I did this multiple times but wasn’t able to continuously as some of the players had no liquidity so I had no cash option available. Just before Novak got booted (a couple hours ago) I had a completely green book for all players of about $1500. After Novak got voided, my book is now negative $8000 for every player. My balance is negative $3800. I have reached out to customer service but they are still discussing cash outs apparently for the market, what the **** that means. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, absolutely tilted off my head at the moment. Will have to take this to the Gaming Commission (I’m from Australia) if this doesn’t get sorted."

i assume this was because the lay side was over 100%?

that was a schoolboy error considering the risk of a big player being voided

also sounds like his lays of the other players were no voided, only his novak bets

if that is the case betfair has done nothing wrong?

what's the difference? what's this "throughout" business?

was the lay side ever over 100%?

if the back side is under 100% or the lay side over 100% it is because something strange is going on, a major runner is missing, or something like the novak situation

"There's no such thing as a free lunch Dylan!"

exactly

Jan 16, 2022 -- 9:22PM, Giuseppe wrote:

was the lay side ever over 100%?

yeah, that's why players layed all outcomes.

anyone who did that, on the back of  aprofit trading novak, is now in big trouble

on the back of  aprofit trading novak = as a result of having a profit from trading novak

I have some sympathy for them, because I have also made rookie errors at one point. I just don't understand how you can play around with such sums when you don't fully understand the market rules.

The lay side was over 100% constantly for about 10 days straight. I said before the first court hearing that it looked like someone was laying all outcomes, the lay side would all flash with bets matched, suggesting someone had just layed everyone. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a new account from Russia or somewhere that was laying everyone, they would've took a healthy profit if Djokovic played but wont be heard from again now he's out.

Betfair not faultless. They could've explained how their 'cash out' works and stopped people running up potentially big exposures that exceed their balance, they should have seen what was happening at the beginning too.

Jan 16, 2022 -- 10:30PM, blank wrote:

The lay side was over 100% constantly for about 10 days straight. I said before the first court hearing that it looked like someone was laying all outcomes, the lay side would all flash with bets matched, suggesting someone had just layed everyone. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a new account from Russia or somewhere that was laying everyone, they would've took a healthy profit if Djokovic played but wont be heard from again now he's out.

oh they can do a runner now. Shouldn't Betfair do something so this situation doesn't happen?

on a market like this, where runners can be voided, maybe the exposure calculation should take that into account

the other option would be to let all bets stand, whether the player plays or not

personally i would prefer this

dylan now owes betfair $3,800

the situation is a proble for betfair too

how will they make him pay?

Yes 2 good options G.

The default exposure limit on UK accounts is £5k (or it was), looks like Dylan lost £4.2K, If he lost a little bit more and breached that limit, assuming he hasn't changed it, he would be in a better position to argue Betfair shouldn't have allowed the bets.

the other option would be to let all bets stand, whether the player plays or not

I would like this for tennis, it used to be like that here, but it's not a solution for other sports and markets such as first goalscorer in football.

I'm not technically savvy, but I would think something should be able to done about exposure so you can't get in a position with a negative balance. That's not in the customer's interest (unless you do this deliberately to scam Betfair) or Betfair's.

in theory, if he had kept laying, he could $10,000 all-red now

"My balance is negative $3800. "

this shouldn't be possible

it shouldn't be possible to have a negative balance on betfair

it is only possible if betfair calculated your exposure incorrectly

yeah, the exposure only means what you can lose. you should never be able to have a negative balance.

*exposure limit

Anyone else got the email?

What does the email say? I'm involved in the market, but not received anything. It's been suspended for ages now and they've not cleared any of the losers off the market since the start.

I can't copy and paste here. Looks like they're bailing out those that lost from Djokovic's removal, not sure if they're paying out winners. Emails says they'll remove all my bets placed prior to his removal as an act of goodwill, but I'm in profit on everyone so I don't know if they plan on taking my profits.

Right. Seems fair enough if it was their cross-matching bot/cash-out feature was causing chaos to reimburse those who it affected.

I'm on the opposite side - I had been dutching in anticipation of his withdrawal. If they remove all bets prior to his withdrawal for me, I will go from a very nice green book to a substantially red one.

Surely, they can't change the rules for everyone once the market has been in play? They need to take any hit if it was their bots playing up, not any punter who has successfully traded to their rules, or who has been the victim of their erroneous bots.

Right. Seems fair enough if it was their cross-matching bot/cash-out feature was causing chaos to reimburse those who it affected.

I'm on the opposite side - I had been dutching in anticipation of his withdrawal. If they remove all bets prior to his withdrawal for me, I will go from a very nice green book to a substantially red one.

Surely, they can't change the rules for everyone once the market has been in play? They need to take any hit if it was their bots playing up, not any punter who has successfully traded to their rules, or who has been the victim of their erroneous bots.

Right. Seems fair enough if it was their cross-matching bot/cash-out feature was causing chaos to reimburse those who it affected.

I'm on the opposite side - I had been dutching in anticipation of his withdrawal. If they remove all bets prior to his withdrawal for me, I will go from a very nice green book to a substantially red one.

Surely, they can't change the rules for everyone once the market has been in play? They need to take any hit if it was their bots playing up, not any punter who has successfully traded to their rules, or who has been the victim of their erroneous bots.

I'm similar, I was backing and laying the field, but much more backing. Hoping the email was just meant for those adversely affected and I received it by mistake.

Legally, they must be in very murky waters if they turn green books red due to them changing the rules mid-way through a market. I mean, it's not like this was an exceptional market. They changed the 'all bets stand' rule on tennis several years ago. That brought it in line with nearly all other sports (most similarly golf due the size of the field). There's never been any reduction factors (applied in racing) in tennis or golf.

^ I've found my long lost joining twin

Years ago, Betfair was run by people who understood how an exchange worked. The chaps who conceived of Betfair were obviously the first to make it into a large main-stream product. The upper hierarchy of the company must have known the exchange inside out back then. I now get the distinct impression that many people in influential positions have no idea of the various ways people can and do trade on here.

Ha. Yes. I've not been quite so vocal on the forum though.

All my backs on the field before his removal have gone.

And you said that's bad for your book? FFS. Nothing happened for me yet

Yes my balance just dropped by a significant sum and my position on the market is probably red overall, if I levelled up, from a nice green before.

They cannot be seriously doing that! They're changing the rules halfway through the market because someone didn't understand the implications of bookmaking a market when the favourite was likely to be withdrawn.

By all means, if they feel culpable through producing a negative balance on someone's account because he didn't understand the risk or rules, that's fine. They should make that 'goodwill gesture' as they put it. But, they cannot expect people on the other side who followed the rules and successfully traded a profit to pay for this.

As I said before, it's not like there was anything dodgy or exceptional about this market. The rules have been the same for years and are consistent across all sports. I bookmake (or used to) golf markets. Understanding that players can withdraw and that you don't get paid out for that lay is part of the market. You have to take that risk onboard and be prepared to lose substantially if one of the favourites withdraws.

As no one else seems to be affected, I'm assuming it's just a mistake atm and my account has been wrongly identified as negatively affected, and that's why my bets have been removed. They're looking into it now.

Sounds a bit more positive. Fingers crossed.

You mentioned they removed your bets as an act of goodwill. Hardly an act of goodwill if it's to your detriment. Let's hope that's the case.

How is this even a question? If people cant be bothered to read the rules of the market why is this my problem?

Anybody have any opinions on what we're going to see here? Not feeling too positive..

Knowing Betfair, I'm not feeling confident either. If they do arbitrarily decide to void all bets pre-Djokovic, I will lose thousands. I'm not going to take that lying down. I'll look into whatever possible legal avenues there are.

simple solution: don't offer cash out on these markets

same as next manager markets or US president markets

As it was an active market i just kept backing every player, whose price was less than 200, other than Djock. I was then was laying at the next increment down for the same amount as id backed. So i was level on djock and all the outsiders and green on all the front runners. If they remove the backs and keep the lays i will be terrible red on all the front runners.

Is this the main issue Giuseppe the cash out from your understanding?

Romford I wondered if the bets would of been cancelled had Djokovic played? "Through good will" honestly these bunch of jokers better sort this out as changing the rules MIDWAY through a tournament just isnt acceptable however you feel about your book.

Romford were you doing similar to me or different?

My position has remained the same with no bets removed thus far.

Anyone who used the market pre Djokovic withdrawal is going to be affected if they do this. The correct thing to do is to leave it as it is. I fully understand if they feel guilty for someone having a negative balance as a result of not understanding the rules and/or using their cash-out bot, but that's up to Betair whether or not they want to reimburse as a gesture of goodwill.

You cannot change rules halfway through a market and expect the green books to compensate the red books just because some poor bloke didn't know the implications of his trades.

I've been there before - I've lost chunks when I didn't read/understand market rules properly. I was sickened by it, then accepted it, learned from it and moved on. The idea that the winners from my loses should have compensated me is laughable.

Bin Bagged, I basically backed the top 16 or so repeatedly, but also backed Djokovic for more. I was basically backing the book for 102-103%, with the anticipation that there was a good chance that 28% or so might disappear. I backed Djokovic for more that the rest as insurance if he took part, as I assumed he would have steamed in to 2.3-2.7 on a positive court decision for him.

I've since bookmaked it to less than 100% (unprofitably, in order to reduce liability on the players who I hadn't backed.

"Is this the main issue Giuseppe the cash out from your understanding?"

haven't read all the posts but it was for that dylan lad who was 4 grand red

cash out kept telling him he could go all green so he did, again and again, but when Novak bets were voided he was al red

He clearly didn't understand the rules and cocked up, but Betfair made it incredibly easy for him to do that with the cash-out option. Without the cash-out, he may well never have bookmaked it.

Got you. I can't believe for a moment they can cancel my backs but keep the lays.

My market has shuffled into a random order, but nothing updated on my balance or book yet. Looks like it'll update soon though if there's some sort of movement.

I see the market is now in alphabetical order

They're down to the last 32 on my market, and nothing has been adjusted on my book. I bloody well hope it stays that way!!

All good here since they've reopened. Hopefully much ado about nothing. Everyone else as they should be?

Properly put me off my dinner this did!!

Losers removed. Positions unaltered. I drank 8 cans of Kronenbourg in an hour.

that's a lot of beer mate

It is in an hour. Goodnight i'm going to bed!

Cant say I'm pleased at all on the outcome on my book. I had a £575 profit on all outcomes through a mixture of trades on Medvedev/Zverev.

All trades/bets placed before Djokovic removal have been removed leaving me with a net position of £-16.66. How is this fair? Has anybody else experienced this? I've been offered a measly £75 free bet as a "gesture of goodwilL" Hmm not to sure how you'd class 10% of my winnings as a gesture of good will.

Anybody else been negatively affected? Not being funny the rules are clear as day I dont see HOW anything needed to be amended here. How do betfair stand here? Would I have any chance of taking this further with IBAS for instance? This isnt even about the money this is about the website as a whole - If you cant place a bet not knowing the rules are going to be randomly amended? How can you even use the platform..


Tell me if im talking waffle but can someone explain WHY the trades placed on Medvedev/Zverev leading up to the tournament (Placed between 09/01/22 - 16/01/22) are voided? Is there any ground for this?

Would need to know exactly what you have done. Who did you back, who did you lay? Did you use cash-out function? It seems likely that Betfair has screwed up.
From what I understand they have cancelled some players bets, but obviously that shouldn't be done at the expense of other users.

I'm waiting for the full breakdown of bets to be sent as I've no access to them at this stage after being removed. Essentially, it was a mix of backs and lays on Medvedev & Zverev and as far as I know no. I never used the cash out function at all & all bets were backed/layed off via bet angel for the same stakes. When you say cancelled some players bets what do you mean in that sense? and how have Betfair screwed up? I'm aware they have somehow but I'm still struggling to understand fully how? Pretty annoying/poor show from them though.

Ok. I am not familiar with Bet Angel but by your description it seems Betfair have removed your bets by mistake.
I wasn't affected personally, all my bets stand, but I know there were lots of complaints to Betfair from people who had layed the field and ended up with red on every player once Novak was removed. If this was caused by Betfair's cashout function, so for instance if cashout layed other players after the bettor had initially had layed Novak, I do think Betfair should reimburse those affected (how I don't know since there is a backer and layer for each bet and you can't use remove them since there will be someone on the other side.) If someone who had layed Novak greened up by laying other players, that is on the bettor and nothing Betfair should reimburse them for. I don't know which scenarios apply here for those who ended up with a big red.
I did see this on twitter today (I can't vouch for the validility, but I know Betfair has been looking into it every since Novak withdrew).
https://twitter.com/jack_govier/status/1484183887131652098
If that is accurate, it seems some users have had bets removed that Betfair had no right to remove.
I'm not really sure what advice to give. I'm sure if they let you speak to a manager common sense would prevail, but the problem is getting past live chat/regular customer service who for most part are useless. I would give that a try. If they won't let you speak to a manager and you get nowhere with regular cs, I would write them an email explaining the situation, ask on what grounds your bets were removed, saying you expect the bets to be honored in accordance with their rules and if they're not you will take it further. Others are welcome to give input, but that's what I would do. Maybe also check with Bet Angel and see if they know if others are in similar situation as you.

Arsenal, I got the impression Betfair were taking responsibility for any loss caused by their cash-out function laying the field pre-Djokovic withdrawal. That's why it took so long as they had to honour the other side of the book (keeping the green books green) and reimburse those negatively affected.

Non of my bets have been affected at all. If they have changed your bets to your detriment, they have absolutely no right to do that whatsoever. The rules were clear as day. Did you take any photos or screenshots of your book? Betfair should still have the records if you didn't.

I've requested all historic bets I've placed on the Australian open even the ones they cancelled. My whole book was 100% £575 in the green after commission backing/laying both Medvedev & Zverev no cash out or anything. It looks as though they've cancelled ALL of my bets placed before the time betfair determined Djokovic being a non runner. Surely you cant be cancelling backs/lays on both Medvedev/Zverev or am I missing something here? When you say reimburse it looks as though I've been credited with a £10 bonus - Presumably in relation to this mess up. I'm at a loss to how they'd think that's acceptable when the books value was £575. I've still not been given an answer yet. Customer service wont help and I've escalated it with a complaint. Hopefully as you say common sense prevails as to my knowledge I'm pretty sure none of the bets I mentioned above should of been cancelled.

To mentioned I now have a negative book after balancing it up earlier (£16.50 loss) - Even at that point 9am they told me the market was "suspended" I was looking clearly at it being open and functional. I then asked where I stand with my actual position at that point wondering if they intended on amending anything else. They couldn't tell me (Very confused as to why I should be punished for an error that clearly has nothing to do with me).

when I say reimburse I meant if Betfair's cashout function caused some players to get a red when all they wanted to do was "back" Djokovic, they should be fully compensated for their losses.
You should have your bets reinstated.

Arsenal, if all you did was back/lay Medvedev and Zverev, these bets should definitely stand and it's Betfair's error in voiding them.

I think it must have been difficult for them to untangle all the bets they wanted to refund from the people on the opposite side, so they may have made some mistakes when doing that. It seems that's the case with you.

I would politely insist on speaking to someone who understands the nature of the market and exchange. Nearly all customer service operators won't have a clue how the exchange works, so it'd be like banging your head against a brick wall speaking to them. Ask to speak to someone with some authority who can understand the problem and sort it out. An email would help as well.

You have to be patient sometimes with Betfair - it's not easy to speak to someone who knows what they're doing these days.

If all else fails, there's IBAS, but I don't think it should come to that at all.

I think it must have been difficult for them to untangle all the bets they wanted to refund from the people on the opposite side, so they may have made some mistakes when doing that. It seems that's the case with you.

very likely this is what happened.

I agree with everything else in this post as well.

Looks like its now been "untangled" as you say but slightly concerning they couldn't advise that work was still being carried out on the market at that point. Was eventually amended around about 2 & all of my previous bets throughout the week appeared again. V V strange. Cheers though guys.

Really pleased it's all sorted for you as well.

It was obviously a difficult operation for them to unravel all the affected bets and take on the liability themselves, whilst keeping the profitable side of it unaffected. They do lack the ability to communicate these things properly, and that's down to very few customer facing employees understanding the basics of exchange betting.

I have some horror stories which I won't bore you with in depth. But in Aug 2020, I came from home holiday, logged on and found that my account with the entire balance had simply been 'closed'. It was nothing but a massive administrative ****-up that was completely Betfair's fault. It took a month to sort out. I hadn't even been sent an email, let alone a phone call to explain anything.

The problem is, as an effective monopoly in the exchange game, they are judge, jury and executioner. Their appalling customer service reflects this.

All sorted here too. I didn't realise when they wiped half my bets yesterday, but they actually credited my account with £20 as goodwill, at the time my balance had just gone from positive to -£4K!

Good to hear as well. £20 compensation for s**ting a brick ain't exactly great, but at least it's considerably better than having a -£4k balance.

Yes not a great experience, just glad they got there in the end, be interesting to see if they make changes for the French if it's the same situation.

They should have some financial incentive to do so. This can't have been cheap for them.

A few months ago they suspended my account for affordability checks. I immediately sent off my documents and requested they unlock my account as i had £26000 of unmatched bets in the system. Not only did they refuse to unlock the account they wouldn't cancel my unmatched bets! Unbelievable.

That's absolutely awful. The fact that they wouldn't even cancel the unmatched bets is disgusting.

I had been on holiday with nothing in any market when they closed my account. However, imagine my feeling when I returned home to find my account (with basically my life savings in it) was just 'closed'. Not a word from them that it was going to happen. When I phoned up, the customer service operator in Dublin was rude, abrasive and couldn't tell me anything. After a few weeks of it being closed, I had to do affordability checks as well and was made to feel like a criminal under investigation.

It turned out I had been 'sent' an email a month before explaining they needed some documentation. 100% I never received this email and one of the better customer relations chaps actually confirmed to me that he could see that this missing email had been pinged straight back to Betfair and that it was obvious that I never did receive it.

It caused me so much stress at the time - I was phoning them several times a day and was genuinely worried for a while that I would have to take legal action to re-access my money.

Their customer service has gone down the pan, there's probably a few decent staff that know how betting works and will help, but you need to get through the frontline to talk to them. I emailed the CEO yesterday afternoon, found his email online, within an hour a complaints member called me about it and said he was going to expedite it, 30 minutes later the market was resettled correctly.

Wow that's terrible mate. terrible it should happen in the first place but to take so long to resolve.....
I question why the help department are called so because they offer no help whatsoever.