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Old Father Time

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Replies: 79
By:
DanielKoellerer
When: 10 Jul 21 07:20
Agree with Giuseppe.

Beating Phillipousis, Baghdatis, gonzalez in slam finals gave him a fairly easy ride till about 2008. Then when nadal became a great on all surfaces, and djokovic appeared feds days were fairly numbered. Relatively of course.

12 slams from 2003 to 2007.
8 slams from 2008 to 2021.

His longevity is impressive but you can’t claim that disparity is normal and claim that was his peak just because he suddenly started losing a bit more frequently to nadal and then djokovic. Maybe the fact people believe his peak was 2005/2006 because there was no djokovic or major nadal challenge off clay.

When was djokovic’s peak?

Was it 2011 to feb 2012 when he won 4 out of 5 slams, went on a 40+ match winning run.

Or was it 2015 to 2016 when he won 5 out of 6 slams, and lost in the final of the other which meant he narrowly missed out on the calendar slam? Beating Federer in 3 of those slams pretty comfortably in 4 sets, including 2 finals. In fact he beat him in Indian wells, Rome, Wimbledon, us open and atp world tour finals in 2015. Not going to mention his finals record vs roger or his slam record vs him. Refer to my above post.

Or maybe it’s 2021? The calendar slam? There will be some pretty twitchy anti-djokovic bottoms if that ends up looking likely.

So what does it show? This man has pretty much dominated tennis for a decade - losing final blip in 2012 2013 and post French open 2016 motivational blues.

The records he has roll off your tongue. Sorry, but it’s not up for debate. All 3 are magnificent and will probably always be the 3 greatest but there’s a fairly clear order actually. No anti Federer hate as he is the main reason the rivalries are so great, has the most aesthetic style, incredible longevity, and is consequently the most popular ever. He’s just not the greatest.

As wesdag said, it’s not about subjective nonsense, there’s a lot of objective evidence out there to prove it fairly clearly.
By:
Jumping-cuckoo-monk
When: 10 Jul 21 11:37
Nadal kept getting beat in earlier rounds so didn't make the finals with Federer on Federer's preferred surfaces.
With Nadal not being good enough to make these finals its long odds on Federer beating him
That's how a stat can be skewed.
By:
Jumping-cuckoo-monk
When: 10 Jul 21 11:40
Plus of course there is a massive chance that Nadal was "at it"
Will be confirmed when he has heart trouble in his 40s
Disgrace
By:
scandanavian_haven
When: 10 Jul 21 13:36
gave up gluten and suddenly turned into superman, is that objective?Laugh
By:
Giuseppe
When: 10 Jul 21 16:45
"Nadal kept getting beat in earlier rounds so didn't make the finals with Federer on Federer's preferred surfaces."

what are you talking about

Federer only won five grand slams between 2008 and 2014 (Nadals' peak years) and one of those was Wimbledon 2009 when Nadal pulled out

they played 19 times during that period

Nadal won 15 of those ties, including all 6 at grand slams (4 finals and two semi finals, I posted above that all were finals)

admittedly only one of those ties was on grass, but Federer wasn't pulling up any trees at Wimbledon during this period, he only won it twice
By:
Giuseppe
When: 10 Jul 21 17:01
2008-14

leaving out meeting son clay

grass one match, Wimbledon final won by Nadal

outdoor hardcourt, 3 grand slam matches, all at Australian open, all won by Nadal

4 other outdoor hardcourt matches, 3 wins by Nadal, 1 by Federer

indoor hardcourt 3 matches 1 for Nadal, 2 for Federer

Federer also beat him indoors in 2015

other than indoors Nadal had a clear edge over Federer on every surface
By:
Jumping-cuckoo-monk
When: 10 Jul 21 17:12
You get no more £50s off me.
Anyone who fights the corner of Roid Boy gets nada.
By:
Giuseppe
When: 10 Jul 21 17:17
I'm not taking a position on that, I'm not saying he was clean
By:
Giuseppe
When: 10 Jul 21 17:19
is that ok? I could do with a 20 to be honest
By:
Jumping-cuckoo-monk
When: 10 Jul 21 17:22
Grin

the following site has crunched the numbers Wink

.
https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/goatList
By:
Jumping-cuckoo-monk
When: 10 Jul 21 17:24
Jimmy Connors better than Borg according to that list. Hmmm
By:
Jumping-cuckoo-monk
When: 10 Jul 21 17:25
Actually they have Connors better than Sampras
I'd like to w/d that pile of doo-doo pls
By:
Giuseppe
When: 10 Jul 21 17:40
bit of trivia: one of Connors' US Open wins was on clay (76)
By:
Giuseppe
When: 10 Jul 21 17:41
how many clay tournaments did Pistol Pete win?
By:
Giuseppe
When: 10 Jul 21 17:50
Connors missed a load of French Opens during his peak years too

and hardly ever played in Australia (as was common among top players)

could have won more grand slam tournaments
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 10 Jul 21 20:18
hey scandanavian...........if federer was a considerably lesser player from 2013-2018 than 2003-2012, then why in 2017 did federer beat nadal in all 4 outdoor hardcourt meetings......nadal won the us open in 2017 (and the french 2017)......he was not exactly an average player was he.........those 4 meetings were at the aus open final and included two masters hard court finals.........they were not mickey mouse matches.
fed was a great player in his 30's........its just that novak prevented him from winning 10 more slams......stats dont lie..FEDERER WON 2017 WIMBLEDON WITHOUT DROPPING A SET.......U HEAR THAT SCANDANAVIAN...........THE ONLY YEAR HE WON WIMBELDON WTHOUT DROPPING A SET.....WAS IN 2017......WHEN HE WAS IN HIS MID 30'S......HE COULDNT DO IT IN 2003-2007.....DJOKOVIC WAS PLAYING INJURED IN 2017.
I have proved my point about fed being a great player in his 30's..........he only won 3 slams then because joko BEAT HIM EVERY TIME THEY MET IN A SLAM........MORE OR LESS.......THE H2H STATS IN SLAMS FOR FED V THESE TWO ARE EMBARASSING........remember scandanavian.............fed was well up to winning slams in his 30's in straight sets ..........AS LONG AS HE AVOIDED NOVAK DJOKOVIC.....I REST MY CASE.


h2h nadal v federer at the slams
aus open 3-1
french 6-0
wimbledon 1-3


h2h djokovic v federer at the slams
aus open 4-1
french 1-1
wimbledon 3-1
USO 3-3
By:
scandanavian_haven
When: 10 Jul 21 20:39
what are you talking about, look at the players who knocked him out of slams post 2012, they'd never have done that 03-12 because they didn't, you Millman's and Gulbis and Stakhovsky's were beating him after 30 years old not before, only slam winners or finalists could before.
Federer has beaten Nadal 13-7 on hard courts, inside hard and outside together. Nadal has never got close to winning the world tour finals. The only surface he has dominated him on is clay, but he's dominated everyone on clay including Novak.
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 10 Jul 21 20:40
claiming someone is the GOAT when all 3 have 20 slams each but when they then have a losing slam h2h of 10-4 and 11-6 is relly weird.......especially when u also hear that the other two have way more masters titles than fed.....even allowing for the advantage nadal has in having 3 masters on clay when there are none on grass.........WHY DOESNT FED HAVE MORE MASTERS THAN JOKO.......FED WONT BE WINNING ANYMORE MASTERS.......IF COVID GETS OUT OF THE WAY JOKO WILL 10 MORE..........THERE ARE NO STATS THAT PROVE THAT FED IS THE GOAT.........NONE........that 2019 wimbdleon final when roger federer was nearly 38 years of age and lost WHEN HE SHOULD HAVE WON.........may well haunt FEDERER FOREVER........
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 10 Jul 21 20:46
"The only surface he has dominated him on is clay"..........why has federer got a 3-1 losing h2h record at the aus open v nadal?
given that nadal is 6-0 v fed on clay, why doesnt fed have a 4-0 record v nadal on grass?.....why isnt it 100 pct like nadal has on clay v fed

WHY DOES FED HAVE A 4-4 RECORD V NADAL H2H ON NON CLAY SLAM SURFACES SCANDANAVIAN..........WHY DOESNT HE DOMINATE?


WHY DOESNT FED HAVE A WINNING H2H AT ANY SLAM V NOVAK DJOKOVIC.............2 LOSING AND 2 ARE A DRAW

IN 3 YEARS TIME WHEN NOVAK HAS 25 SLAMS.............WHAT WILL BE YOUR ARGUEMENT THAT FEDERER IS THE GOAT?, OTHER THAN HE BEING A NICER PERSON........THERE ARE PLENTY OF NICE GUYS OUT THERE.......IT MEANS NOTHING IN DETERMINING WHO THE BETTER PLAYER IS.
By:
scandanavian_haven
When: 10 Jul 21 21:20
I'm not claiming Federer is the best ever, I think they're all pretty much the 3 greatest ever Novak simply started to dominate everything once Federer was past 30 and slowing down

Read this - it's Novak's own comments about Federer in 2013



Feeling your age, Roger? Fed's too slow, claims Djokovic ahead of ATP Tour clash

[i]Roger Federer is guaranteed a rapturous welcome at the 02 Arena on Tuesday night, with his legion of fans loathed to agree with Novak Djokovic's diagnosis of the problems that have afflicted him this year.

The 26 year-old Serb, who is plunged straight in against six-times champion Federer in their opening group match of the Barclays ATP World Tour Finals, hinted that he believes age is finally catching up with the great Swiss.

Abandoning the reverence with which the top players usually speak of each other, Djokovic did not dilute his analysis of why his opponent has endured, relatively, his worst season in a decade.

'From my point of view he hasn't been moving as well this year and I guess that's one of the reasons he hasn't had much success,' said the world No 2. 'He is moving maybe slower than he used to

Federer's supporters will point to the stiff back their hero has sporadically suffered from in 2013, although that in itself may be a sign of advancing years.

The two actually played on Saturday in the semi-finals of the Paris Masters, with Djokovic winning in three, and after dashing to London on Sunday night he has to win again if he is to have any chance of blocking Rafael Nadal from the year-end number one position.

Switzerland has already got a win on the board with Stanislas Wawrinka beginning the tournament with a 6-3 6-7 6-3 victory over Tomas Berdych in the opening match of Group A, much to the delight of the large Swiss contingent who always attend.



and you add this to the fact he's had 2 knee surgeries, it's amazing he was still able to compete, still able to Knock Nadal out of slams and had Slam winning point against Djokovic age 37.

there's virtually nothing between them in terms of talent and ability, just different styles, but all you have is cherry picked stats and dates.
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 10 Jul 21 21:40
novak will end up with more slams, better h2h, better slam h2h, better slam final h2h, more masters titles..........AND BEATING RAFAEL NADAL - THE KING OF CLAY - AT MONTE CARLO, ROME AND ROLAND GARROS......SOMETHING FED COULD NOT DO AT ANY POINT IN HIS PRIME

There is no cherry picking here scandanavian....FACTS ARE FACTS...........what joko said to some reporter 8 years ago means nothing............TALK ABOUT CHERRY PICKING TO PROVE YOUR POINT. THATS DESPERATE CHERRY PICKING BY YOU....TO PULL THAT INTERVIEW UP....MY OPENING SENTENCE ABOVE IS NOT CHERRY PICKING.....JUST BASIC STATS TO PROVE JOKO IS THE GOAT...YOUR DOING THE CHERRY PICKING

NICE DEBATE THOUGH. HERE ALL DAY.
By:
Giuseppe
When: 10 Jul 21 21:48
2008-14 Nadal was the best player

2015-21 Novak has been the best

this isn't a controversial statement surely?

and if you accept that, how can Roger be the GOAT?
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 10 Jul 21 22:00
Giuseppe.......Fed fans are totally blinded......i dont get it. THERE ARE NO STATS THAT PROVE HE IS THE GOAT.

the player he has beaten the most in grand slam finals is 1 time slam winner Andy Roddick....roger beat him in 4 finals
nadal beat federer in 6 finals and novak in 5..........they will point to the clay skewing this but federer and novak are great clay court players
novak beat nadal in 4 finals and fed in 4..........

these are more stats to prove nadal and novak played in harder eras.........its a no brainer.......Federer had every chance to win more slams than nadal and novak..........BECAUSE HE PLAYED THEM IN SO MANY GRAND SLAM FINALS.......BUT THEY KICKED HIS BACKSIDE........AND THATS ULTIMATELY THE REASON WHY THEY WILL END UP WITH MORE SLAMS..............because they will have better h2h record v fed in slam finals
By:
Jumping-cuckoo-monk
When: 10 Jul 21 22:25
Are you counting meetings when Roger got his zimmer frame?
By:
Jumping-cuckoo-monk
When: 10 Jul 21 22:30
You could say there's 2 points in it being Roger 22 winning slams and Djokovic 17
2 match points when roger was 38 at wimbers and 2 match points at us open versus Djokovic
Your slam figures would look sick on the basis of 2 points won or lost.

But according to you lot it is preposterous to think Fed is even in the frame for Goat
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 10 Jul 21 22:31
man wins 8 wimbledon titles.......last one the only time in straight sets (2017).......3 weeks off 36th birthday........yeah, we are counting meetings 2014-2019.......when they met 5 times in slam matches and joko won all 5.......federer won 3 slams 2017-2018............DONT KNOW WHT YOUR POINT IS

if he is better than novak djokovic, WHY WILL NOVAK DJOKOVIC END UP WITH MORE GRAND SLAMS?........ITS EASY STUFF.
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 10 Jul 21 22:33
"You could say there's 2 points in it being Roger 22 winning slams and Djokovic 17"..........if my aunt had...........
By:
Jumping-cuckoo-monk
When: 10 Jul 21 22:33
point is Federer was past his best.
Good god its not hard to grasp
By:
Jumping-cuckoo-monk
When: 10 Jul 21 22:35
You miss my point spectacularly again.
The swing would be 4 slams on 2 points. 2 points in amongst thousands played
So there is not a massive gulf between them.
Dont insult me with my auntie crap
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 10 Jul 21 22:45
Good god its not hard to grasp

more grand slam titles (its a formality)
more masters titles
won each slam twice - fed couldnt do
won all masters twice - fed ouldnt do once
beat king of clay at monte carloe, rome, roland garros.......fed couldnt do
better h2h v nadal........fed couldnt do

good god its not hard to grasp


THE IFS ABOUT 2019..........HOLY CRAP, FED LOST.......THIS ALL YOU GOT?
By:
Jumping-cuckoo-monk
When: 10 Jul 21 22:51
Would you consider Djoko to be the goat if he had won 17 slams and Federer 22
Simple yes or no.
By:
Jumping-cuckoo-monk
When: 10 Jul 21 22:52
By the way you can shout and embolden stats all you like.
You will never convince me.
By:
Jumping-cuckoo-monk
When: 10 Jul 21 22:55
Serena knows
.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamzagoria/2021/05/18/serena-williams-says-roger-federer-is-the-goat-of-mens-tennis-hes-a-genius-and-the-greatest/?sh=3f7a012c2194
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 10 Jul 21 23:00
Would you consider Djoko to be the goat if he had won 17 slams and Federer 22...............federer doesnt have 22LaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh
By:
Jumping-cuckoo-monk
When: 10 Jul 21 23:01
2 separate matches he had match points.
That's my point.
The difference is minute.
But we won't agree so be lucky.
By:
Jumping-cuckoo-monk
When: 10 Jul 21 23:02
2 separate grand slam matches*
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 10 Jul 21 23:07
jumping cuckoo.........never in the history of tennis should a player have won a tennis match but lost and it was that 2019 W final.....fed should have ended his career on 21, but it still would not have been enough cause novak will get to 24/25......no more for fed

but lets be real FEDERER LOST IN 2019.......im trying to be nice..........i was the only person from a household of 5 shouting for novak that day....imagine what its like for those 4, having to deal with me.......LaughLaugh
By:
Jumping-cuckoo-monk
When: 10 Jul 21 23:09
Just checked it was the 2011 semi final when Federer lost after mps due to a sh1t or bust shot by Djokovic
Fed would still have had to beat Nadal in the final but as he leads 13-7 and was at his peak would have been no problem for Fed, lol.
Maybe counting that ^^ one is pushing it a little.
Grin
By:
Jumping-cuckoo-monk
When: 10 Jul 21 23:11
No probs bdj, you are a tough adversary in the stats stakes...... phew Laugh
all the best
By:
brain dead jockeys
When: 10 Jul 21 23:21
im a nadal fan and i was gutted when novak got to the 2011 final because novak owned rafa that year beating him at 5 consec finals........and he beat rafa in 2011 USO final as well. i watched the replay of that final on youtube recently......the highest quality tennis match i have ever seen. its simply unreal.

i like novak as well..........i dont like fed because of his crying after 2009 australian final when rafa beat him...........i was a neutral fan untill that match......but there was 13 time slam winner roger federer crying because he lost a match. he had won 5 wimb and 5 USO in a row.......crikey imagine what its like to be andy roddick or andy murray losing slam final after final.....i was all rafa after that and was gutted when novak started to beat rafa from 2011 onwards but more than happy to see novak go past fed in goat race, hence all my posts here.........

btw i find it difficult to make a case of rafa being better than fed in the goat race as fed has a better mix of slams.........so im not totally biased, all my arguements are novak over both of them.
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