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Angoose
29 Aug 19 11:51
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Date Joined: 18 Jul 02
| Topic/replies: 24,312 | Blogger: Angoose's blog
Is the flash decommissioning message (shown below) bringing a slow down in pictures ?

Hi,

We are aware of the decommissioning of Flash streaming by browsers in the future and have been in contact with our live streaming providers to mitigate any degradation in the service that this will cause. While these conversations continue, one of our providers that covers a subset of our Badminton, Basketball, Football, Tennis and Handball will be removing their support of Flash streams this week and will provide all their streams using HLS.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused going forward.

Regards,

Betfair Customer Service

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Replies: 69
By:
Angoose
When: 29 Aug 19 11:54
RTMP is ideal if you require low latency, though in recent years it has become outdated and as it is based on Flash, it may lack support within some browsers and devices.

Despite these disadvantages it is ideal to use RTMP as a transport stream, it can be transcoded into other formats such as HLS which can be distributed more easily.

HLS is supported on desktop browsers, smart TVs, and both Android and iOS mobile devices. HTML5 video players also natively support HLS, in comparison with HDS and RTMP. The HLS is the safest protocol today for scaling live streaming to larger audience.

Coming to the features, the HLS standard also supports adaptive bitrate streaming. The one major drawback is with the latency. The latency can be relatively high. But, there are methods for reducing HLS latency.

RTMP used to be the de facto standard for live streaming. Many CDNs offer delivery that scales to the masses. RTMP, however, does not take into consideration that broadcaster and viewers might have internet connections that aren’t always up to the task of transferring the stream at full speed.

Smartphones and web browsers are also unable to play back RTMP natively; Browsers used to depend on a flash plugin for playback, which has been phased out over the last couple of years.

https://rtmp-server.com/rtmp-vs-hls/

Why do we appear to be regressing in streaming technology ?
By:
TGMTEL
When: 29 Aug 19 17:12
told you all this would happen in the 3 sec delays thread Cry
By:
Angoose
When: 29 Aug 19 17:56
You did indeed.

Now then, I was watching on Amazon so hadn't tried to watch video on here so went to try it out.

First thing was I not required to respond to a request to install Flash.
The picture then appeared, moved slightly but then froze.

This was using Microsoft Edge but has been repeated using Microsoft Explorer Angry
However, pictures working using Firefox and no issue on my iPad or Android smartphone.
By:
Angoose
When: 29 Aug 19 17:59
Will do some speed checks later, but looks like the Betfair picture advantage has been lost, now on a par with B365.
Their pictures work on Edge and Explorer.
By:
Angoose
When: 29 Aug 19 18:25
It’s happened. Safari did it in June, Firefox will do it by 2017, and now Chrome has officially announced they will do it, too: they’re blocking flash by default in favor of HTML5. If your photography website runs on Flash, it may be time for a change.

The latest company to jump on the “Flash must die” bandwagon is Google, who announced earlier this month that Chrome will begin blocking flash in favor of HTML5 starting with Chrome 53 in September. But they’re far from the first.

In June, Apple announced that the version of Safari that comes on macOS Sierra will block Flash by default.

And just last month, Firefox—which had blocked all versions of Flash ‘temporarily’ last year because of some security vulnerabilities—vowed to block all Flash content by default by 2017. Like Chrome and Safari, Firefox will require that visitors approve Flash websites on a case-by-case basis.

The fight against Flash started 9 years ago when Steve Jobs declared war on the software. It’s been a long and protracted battle, but (if you’ll allow an editor to editorialize for a moment) I can’t wait until Flash is left bludgeoned on the floor in some deep dark corner of the Internet. If you haven’t switched to HTML5 yet, now is the time.
By:
TGMTEL
When: 29 Aug 19 18:56
If Flash is being outphased everywhere (is it?), the horse racing people will eventually get these same types of new streams we have, no?
By:
wisewords
When: 29 Aug 19 18:59
yup
By:
Darlo Bantam
When: 29 Aug 19 20:38
My streams aren't working at all. Excellent. Loads up, shows one picture. Then error message saying "not available".
By:
Darlo Bantam
When: 29 Aug 19 20:43
Managed it on a different browser but lagging badly. This is a potential huge reduction in service.
By:
TGMTEL
When: 29 Aug 19 21:08
Sad
Also to everyone, let Betfair know if you are unhappy with the streams. They don't read the forum!
By:
Angoose
When: 29 Aug 19 21:21
Allow a few days for things to settle down, they only made the switch today and let's compare notes on browsers being used.
By:
Angela Rebecchi
When: 29 Aug 19 21:44
Stop, play, "Sorry, connection to this stream is unavailable. Please try loading again", Reload, play, volume on.

6 buttons I have to press to refresh a stream which is lagging and well behind Flash, which was a simple double click.
By:
TGMTEL
When: 29 Aug 19 23:19
Terrible streams. Freezes a lot so you miss a second her and then, then it catches up where it should be. Using Chrome.
By:
wisewords
When: 29 Aug 19 23:36
Scared
By:
TGMTEL
When: 30 Aug 19 00:05
freezing/lagging in Chrome and Opera (desktop). Also tested on laptop (Chrome), same thing but about 2-3 secs faster. Stream doesn't fall behind, but instead it freezes and catches up so you miss things.
By:
Darlo Bantam
When: 30 Aug 19 00:06
Stops more times than a bus.

Hope this is just some form of teething problems and/or test. Otherwise horse racing going to be an absolute drag.
By:
TGMTEL
When: 30 Aug 19 00:11
Horse racing not affected for now (according to their statement). But maybe in the future if Flash is being phased out.
They did the test in mid-July they have been aware of this change since. They say they will try to make to make this change work, but not sure how much they can do with what they're being sent by their provider.
By:
Darlo Bantam
When: 30 Aug 19 00:13
But maybe in the future if Flash is being phased out.

Adobe is ending support for Flash at the end of next year, so eventually it will have to follow suit. Plenty of time to get this right yet, but this is Betfair we're talking about.
By:
TGMTEL
When: 30 Aug 19 00:22
But how much can they do if they're being sent poor quality from the provider?
By:
TGMTEL
When: 30 Aug 19 01:48
Had to turn off all my streams on main computer because they were making the whole computer sticky. Streams now on computer2 only.
By:
TGMTEL
When: 30 Aug 19 03:52
Not having any issues with the Cilic stream, I am only watching only that at the moment. So maybe it's a matter of how many streams you have up. Will keep an eye on this.
By:
TGMTEL
When: 31 Aug 19 16:34
Streams are so hit and miss. Sometimes I'm not having issues with them being sticky/jumpy etc, but I'm watching the Townshend/Cirstea stream and nothing else and that one is all over the place.
By:
Darlo Bantam
When: 31 Aug 19 17:55
Since this issue arose, I've adjuted to just using my Bet365 account to watch the streams; though it's more limited and I'd rather use the Betfair pop outs. Anyway, today Bet365 has adjusted my balance to 0.00. Anyone else had this issue?
By:
Darlo Bantam
When: 31 Aug 19 17:58
Ah, fixed it. Seems I needed to refresh my balance. Even only moments after logging in.
By:
Angoose
When: 31 Aug 19 18:02
Streams not working for me with Microsoft Edge or Explorer 11, but ok with Firefox.
That's on my laptop.

Have you compared with other devices, iPad or smartphone ?
They work well for me and are not impacted by the removal of flash as they didn't use flash in any case.

You can connect Betfair streams from your iPad to your tv if you want, B365 doesn't appear to transfer though.
By:
Angela Rebecchi
When: 05 Sep 19 04:28
Stream is probably 3-5 seconds slower than the old Flash ones Cry
By:
MasterW
When: 05 Sep 19 11:41
For me delay is 2 seconds slower, then it was before. Even with this delay betfair stream is better than 365. Is there any alternative?
By:
Angela Rebecchi
When: 06 Sep 19 00:39

Sep 5, 2019 -- 5:41AM, MasterW wrote:


For me delay is 2 seconds slower, then it was before. Even with this delay betfair stream is better than 365. Is there any alternative?


Yeah, going on averages that is what I have as well.

By:
TGMTEL
When: 06 Sep 19 22:02
It's a mess. Do you bet as much with these new streams or less? I do less because I'm fairly dependant on streams not being too far behind. The freezing also doesn't help because it means I can't trust the streams to have a stable picture. I find the streams to be slightly more stable now compared to the first days of the new streams but also slower. So I wonder if they tried to do something to keep the delay as short as possible when they switched to HLS, but then gave up on this when it resulted in other problems. And now we're stuck with slow streams.
By:
TGMTEL
When: 06 Sep 19 22:03
All in all, we're having less stable pictures with longer delay compared to the flash ones.
By:
Angoose
When: 06 Sep 19 22:14
Are you getting your pictures through your desktop or laptop ?
Stability not an issue via tablet or smartphone, they weren't using flash, thus no chance.
By:
TGMTEL
When: 07 Sep 19 01:15
Desktop and laptop.
Streams (US Open) have definitely become slower for me in recent days.
Never used tablet or smartphone, were they always slow then?
By:
Angoose
When: 07 Sep 19 08:04
When you state that streams have become slower, how are you measuring this?

Prior to the recent change, Betfair laptop pictures were the fastest freely available.
In tests that I conducted, the gap between Betfair laptop and iPad was around seven seconds.

In a test I conducted following the recent change, this gap reduced to around five seconds.
One interpretation of this change is that the laptop pictures have slowed by around two seconds.

In the same test, B365 laptop pictures were around four seconds slower than Betfair laptop pictures.
There was a further one second delay with B365 iPad pictures, making them similar to Betfair iPad pictures.

My android smartphone experiences similar speeds to my iPad.

The test was made using a US Open match, and would require to be repeated from both the US Open and other tournaments.

Tablets and smartphones were already not using flash.

With Apple devices, this was a choice determined by Steve Jobs many years ago.
With Android devices, this was a choice made for other reasons, possibly predicting the demise of flash, possibly for stability reasons.
By:
doridoru
When: 07 Sep 19 10:32
Try the Amazon Prime one minute behind test
By:
Angoose
When: 07 Sep 19 10:55
Indeed. However, their pictures are around twenty second less slow on a tablet versus a smart tv.Grin
By:
TGMTEL
When: 07 Sep 19 11:30
When you state that streams have become slower, how are you measuring this?
Best test for me is always to put a bet in the market and try to cancel it after a point is finished on my stream, a first serve had been missed etc. With the flash streams for US Open I was able to. Right when they switched to HLS streams I was occasionally able to but most of the time it would get taken just before I try to hit cancel, so it was close. In recent days, they've been taken with good margin.
By:
Angoose
When: 07 Sep 19 11:56
My previous tests also including a comparison of scoreboard updates which are summarised below (previously posted on a seperate thread) :

Scoreboard
The Betfair scoreboard via my laptop is totally unreliable, and can be discounted.
The Betfair scoreboard via my iPad is reliable, but slightly behind B365 on my laptop.
There appears to be no difference between the B365 scoreboard on my laptop and iPad.

Conclusion : B365 offers the slightly faster scoreboard.

The scoreboard updates are almost certainly driven by a link to the device operated by the chair umpire.
The alternative would be to believe that a different human is making updates based on observation either at courtside or via a stream.

If you observe the reliable scoreboard updates versus the pictures, the scoreboard consistently updates before you see the point end.
What isn't consistent is the time delay which is no real surprise.

For this delay to be consistent would require consistent behaviours and reactions from umpires operating their devices.
That isn't happening any time soon for a variety of reasons.

For bet cancellation purposes, you really need to be reacting to a reliable scoreboard rather than pictures.
By:
TGMTEL
When: 07 Sep 19 13:42
For bet cancellation purposes, you really need to be reacting to a reliable scoreboard rather than pictures.

Good point, but previously it was possible with pictures, for some events.
By:
doridoru
When: 09 Sep 19 08:05
Right now on BT Sports, 3 channels at different events all showing live full HD tennis, a few seconds behind the live score.

We can only dream that Amazon Prime will reach 2019 one day...
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