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DStyle
16 Jul 19 13:58
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Date Joined: 20 Jan 05
| Topic/replies: 27,270 | Blogger: DStyle's blog
Really betfair, really.....



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The Exchange department is currently trying a different delay so that we can get data, and feedback from customers, to see if they are at the right delay at the moment or should look to change it.

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Replies: 38
By:
nofx
When: 17 Jul 19 09:48
What ever will they think of next, to bomb Hawaii?
By:
Nick Knatterton
When: 17 Jul 19 14:12
One way to kill the liquidity
By:
nofx
When: 18 Jul 19 13:22
Really why hasn't this been picked up? I expected some angry comments at least. No thread on general betting or anywhere. Isn't tennis arguably the 2nd most popular sports to trade?

Not sure I want to bank on this never making it to be fully implemented rather than it being just another nail in the coffin that is the exchange
By:
EatMySalada
When: 19 Jul 19 21:10
now way i hope they kill that stupid idea. First time they tried was years ago with Roddick Hewitt i think

in masters 1000 they shoult ADD delay
By:
TGMTEL
When: 20 Jul 19 19:00
What's so bad about a shorter delay? Nothing worse than placing a bet, then see clock go 5 .. 4 .. 3 .. 2 .. and then see that lump that you wanted some of disappear and not have your bet matched. I suppose it depends on your betting style though.
By:
Angoose
When: 23 Jul 19 09:40
Reduced submission clock appeared to be working with no issues yesterday …..
By:
EatMySalada
When: 23 Jul 19 21:30
obviously the real feedback from customers is where they loose more , 3 or 5, and betfair will choose wisely
By:
TGMTEL
When: 25 Jul 19 11:14
This could garner more discussion imo.
For my betting style, I think 3 sec delay will be better, but those on team longer delay are more than welcome to present their case on why this is a bad idea.
It's also been brought to my attention that tennis streams will likely be slowed down in the very near future. I don't know how many or by how much. Obviously, this is not good.
By:
TGMTEL
When: 25 Jul 19 11:14
*should (not could)
By:
Angoose
When: 25 Jul 19 11:52
What is the source of your information regarding the slowing down of streams?
Deliberately slowing down streams whilst shortening the submission delay appears to be a very odd strategy. 

The reason for having a delay is to create a level playing field.
Slowing down streams goes against this principle.
By:
TGMTEL
When: 25 Jul 19 12:30
Someone from Betfair. The slowing down of streams is because of their supplier I'm being told.
By:
EatMySalada
When: 25 Jul 19 13:07
A manager from bf told me that streams wont be slowed down.

But the major improvement of this is that seems like the 5000 team took a pause. Last two years they had the edge against the great mug 1111 team (from bf i suppose) so they maybe changed something to regain the edge
By:
TGMTEL
When: 25 Jul 19 13:32
I hope that manager is correct. I was told Bf are working on a fix. We will know soon how this goes.
By:
Nick Knatterton
When: 25 Jul 19 14:56
Only difference that 3 seconds makes to 5 seconds is that available liquidity will go dramatically down because nobody wants to offer anything during play because there isn't enough protection time against hoovering.

TGMTEL you will see much more your lumps disappearing before being matched because almost everyone will cancel (or they should) their unmatched bets when the point starts.

Only one who could benefit from this is the hoovering bot owner who is active in every market. And only one who could push Betfair to change to 3 second bet delay. There isn't any big courtsiders any more left who could have any leverage to push towards craziness like this.
By:
TGMTEL
When: 25 Jul 19 16:34

Jul 25, 2019 -- 9:56AM, Nick Knatterton wrote:


Only difference that 3 seconds makes to 5 seconds is that available liquidity will go dramatically down because nobody wants to offer anything during play because there isn't enough protection time against hoovering. TGMTEL you will see much more your lumps disappearing before being matched because almost everyone will cancel (or they should) their unmatched bets when the point starts. Only one who could benefit from this is the hoovering bot owner who is active in every market. And only one who could push Betfair to change to 3 second bet delay. There isn't any big courtsiders any more left who could have any leverage to push towards craziness like this.


Thanks. That's the kind of response I was looking for. I'm not as convinced as you that this will kill the liquidity (it hasn't for other sports and it hasn't during this trial run from what I've seen) but that's obviously my concern as well. What you say makes sense.

By:
Nick Knatterton
When: 25 Jul 19 20:13
Well it won't kill liquidity in that sense that there wouldn't be money matched, but what I meant that there will be much less money available to bet on. Everyone will cancel their unmatched bets when the point starts (unless you want to be hoovered). So in the future betting is done in around 10 second intervals before the next point starts. And when regular user sees the point ending in their delayed stream and they want to bet on, there is nothing available anymore because market makers have cancelled their bets. So regular users will start to vanish to P1nnacle etc.

3 second bet delay doesn't protect anymore against courtsiders or who are using scores API. Bet delay could as well be 0.1 seconds. Most of the fast feeds are usually 3 seconds or little bit more behind live.
By:
EatMySalada
When: 26 Jul 19 14:51
That's the point. 3 sec could improve a bit the dynamics , but major problem is (and betfair does know) most of users got more than a 3 sec delay from getting the score.
By:
Angoose
When: 26 Jul 19 18:58
The thing about exchanges is that there are so many users employing so many different methodologies, all evolving over time.
How you play, is not necessarily how others play and vice versa.

Betfair cannot change the nature of tennis matches, they can't create break points, they can't serve any aces or double faults, they can't control lucky net cords, they can't cause players to retire through injury.

People will adapt.
By:
EatMySalada
When: 28 Jul 19 18:00
If you saw the markets, they are faking the 3 sec ones with liquidity to direct opinions on it. But it's all by the same manager that thing
By:
TGMTEL
When: 29 Jul 19 11:57
faking liquidity? please elaborate.
By:
EatMySalada
When: 01 Aug 19 13:19
it is not fake as it could the word mean. Just release some more matching money from the SAME managers, hamburg matches went up to 8m never saw that in years... maybe never on a 500 one.
3 sec could be a good thing only when people have access to a faster score, otherwise there is no more sense in placing bets with delay.
By:
DStyle
When: 04 Aug 19 17:51
Relieved to see there's a tiny bit of discussion on this.

As for the move to 3 secs and the arguments for and against, it's pretty basic.

Either you go 0 seconds, full wild west, protecting the price takers, or you have a delay that's appropriate for preventing people who want to leave up unmatched bets, and only have access to a conventional feed, from being hoovered.

There's no middle ground. That's my big problem with the 3 second delay, there is NO rationale for it, other than giving those who already have the biggest advantage an even bigger one.

(fake liquidity is leaving bets up for 1 second less than the in play delay and cancelling them, it's what the in play bot does)
By:
TGMTEL
When: 04 Aug 19 18:24
Thanks to both of you. Yeah, good point about zero or appropriate delay. Golf has one second by the way. If you wanna take it further, 5 across the board doesn't really make much sense either, does it, considering several tennis streams these days have a longer delay than 5 secs. For football for instance, they have different delays for different leagues depending on how far behind the streams are.
Those of you saying this will hurt liquidity, would you say 3 sec delay would hurt it as much as no or 1 sec delay?
By:
Darlo Bantam
When: 04 Aug 19 22:49
Step in the right direction for me. I'd personally like a 1 second delay. I have absolutely no prior knowledge of anything going on and am merely betting using Betfair LV, but in tennis much prefer a shorter delay. Maybe not everyone likes it, but there's two sides to every story.
By:
EatMySalada
When: 05 Aug 19 14:33
Speaking in real terms, when raw feed of masters 1000 went more than 5 sec from live, liquidity dried in a month. I remember the first matches with bets hoovered and ppl not knowing why. From one of most matched matches 1000 went down to 250 ones likely (apart from some exception)
Nowadays that tournaments is only a demo for the 2 or 3 managers from betfair to tune up liquidity.
It explains it at all about a delay you get hoovered.
By:
Hank Hill
When: 05 Aug 19 21:21
Been a long time since I traded tennis properly - very much slams and a few big Masters now. Even though golf is very different in terms of trading the 1 second works well - you still see the rush of money from on-course guys but it's better than when they had the 5 sec delay. What happened to the gearhouse operators that were cleaning up on the Masters tournies then? I have noticed that when the matches end now there doesn't seem to be 1-01 hoovering like there was in the old days. Like I said though I don't follow tennis nearly as closely as I used to.
By:
TGMTEL
When: 25 Sep 19 12:12
Betfair sent me a survey about this today.
By:
ruchaczzpodhala
When: 25 Sep 19 18:51
HLS streaming and 3 sec delay... well done betfair
By:
TGMTEL
When: 25 Sep 19 20:37
yeah, wonderful isn't it?
By:
alwaysontilt
When: 09 Oct 19 23:18
Do courtsiders still exist? Do they get an executeable advantage?
By:
alwaysontilt
When: 09 Oct 19 23:18
Do courtsiders still exist? Do they get an executeable advantage?
By:
EatMySalada
When: 12 Oct 19 17:05
I think there are still few of them, at least somebody getting scores by phone
By:
ruchaczzpodhala
When: 16 Oct 19 19:27
Of course they are still on courts. Look at Kremlin Cup...
By:
AlexCo
When: 18 Dec 19 16:55
From now 3 sec delay applied .
By:
ruchaczzpodhala
When: 19 Dec 19 10:26
and someone is faster than this 3sec, look at the wta limoges markets, the bot is appearing before livescore update loooool
By:
cardenden
When: 26 Dec 19 11:31
ttt
By:
SamuelMertensBertens
When: 12 Jan 20 07:07
3 seconds for ATP Adelaide
By:
ruchaczzpodhala
When: 12 Jan 20 10:04
3sec delay affect will all tennis tournaments except itf series.
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