Djokovic soon to be the GOAT

Fed 20, Rafa 17, Djoko 15. Only 1 winner for me from this point - Novak

the joker will have to get his skates on

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
Rafael Nadal is quite possibly the most ferocious competitor in the entire history of sport, he can certainly not be excluded from the discussion.

Just thank our lucky stats to have been around to witness an era of mens tennis when there have been three gladiators of sport pushing each other to greater and greater heights.

He's slam record is way too top heavy, take away his best slam he has 7 slams, take away Novak's best slam Australia he has 9, take away Wimbledon from Federer and he has 12.

in fact Nadal outside of the French Open has won just 2 slams in 7 years and he didn't beat either Fed/Novak in those 2.

True.

But can you imagine what the numbers would be if there were 2 clay court slams & 1 hard court slam?

yep ,he could argue there aren't enough Clay     


I think Djokovic will see Rafa off in atleast 3 more slams and Rafa will grab atleast one more at RG   ... but I think the gap is too big now ...   22 or 23  by Rafas retirement ? ...that record will probably last decades

Federer - 8 grass, 11 hard court, 1 clay
Novak - 5 grass, 11 hard court, 1 clay
Nadal - 2 grass, 5 hard court, 13 clay

I think this shows that Federer and Djokovic are more dynamic than Nadal as they're much more accomplished across different surfaces, if there were 2 slams on clay it would further highlight Nadal's limitations. These top spin forehands are far less effective on surfaces that don't grip and shoot the ball upwards

Oct 12, 2020 -- 7:26AM, Coachbuster wrote:

yep ,he could argue there aren't enough Clay

has there ever been a grass court specialist ?   that's something that could hold you in good stead ...just win every single Wimbledon

Oct 12, 2020 -- 8:56AM, scandanavian_haven wrote:

Federer - 8 grass, 11 hard court, 1 clayNovak - 5 grass, 11 hard court, 1 clayNadal - 2 grass, 5 hard court, 13 clayI think this shows that Federer and Djokovic are more dynamic than Nadal as they're much more accomplished across different surfaces, if there were 2 slams on clay it would further highlight Nadal's limitations. These top spin forehands are far less effective on surfaces that don't grip and shoot the ball upwards

You might have a slight point re Joker but remember, Fed has never beaten Nadal over 5 sets on clay whereas Nadal has beaten Fed on grass & hard courts.

Looks like Fed destined to be in 3rd spot quite soon.

At least that will quieten down the annual Federer BBC love-in called Wimbledon.

ttt

Few years back and Djoker was dropping out of contention for consideration as a GOAT, even Murray was looking better - right back in it again now.

Though a mad aspect is that he was actually 2-0 down in sets to a relative nobody, in this tournament where he has overcome Rafa on clay at last...

2-0 down in another match, and still GOATing...

Not sure how players such as Federer,Nadal,Djokovic and a year or two ago Murray,outlast younger players in the endurance stakes,although in the earlier sets they are level in tennis playing abilities

Doean't anyone on here notice how Djokovic employs his nasty gamesmanship in some matches.
It's an age old tactic of pretending you've given up trying to win the match. Only you haven't given up but you're
hoping your apponent thinks you have. And it's not just Tennis where you see it.

he's now played in more slam finals than Nadal, 2 behind Federer

has won 7 of last 12 grand slams......nadal 4, thiem 1............no chance of roger winning another. nearly 40. has played no tennis in 18 months.
cant see rafa winning another US or AUS......thiem, zverev, medvedev and tsitsipas can all beat him on hardcourts. however rafa has a chance at wimbledon. may seem a strange thing to say but all those players i mentioned have done nothing at wimbledon yet. rafa has reached last 2 semis there. in last 17 years no one has won wimbledon outside of novak, rafa, roger, murray........latter 2 are not contenders. so its between rafa and novak. this is novaks chance to get to 20. there is plenty of competition on hardcourts. he is not guaranteed to rack up too many more USO's or aussies.
novak has every stat to say he is greater than roger except the 20 grand slams.......more masters (36-28). better h2h (27-23).......better grand slam h2h (11-6).......4-1 in grand slam finals........more weeks at number 1..........and HE HAS DONE THIS IN A MUCH TOUGHER ERA..........roger has lost all 3 wimbledon finals v novak. so if he wanted to be the goat, he had his chance but NOVAK BEAT HIM........novak only has this final grand slam stat to get over the goat line.
by the way......novak h2h v rafa is 30-28.......but in grand slam matched its 10-7 to rafa, 5-4 in finals to rafa.......thats the only stat that rafa has over novak. novaks mix of grand slams is much better. rafa too dependent on clay. 7 of his 10 beatings of novak in grand slams matches are on clay. novak also has 5 master final wins v 0 for rafa. its 36-36 in masters titles. roger might not even be the 2nd greatest plater ever.

if Novak wasn't disqualified from the US Open last year he'd be on 20 by now.

scandanavian........there is plenty of competition on hardcourts and clay. wimbledon is going to be his main way of getting past 20. has won the last 2......no event last year....

he's won 9 Aussie opens, all he has to do is stay fit til Rogers age and he'll sail past 20

Baulkline13 Jun 21 18:46
Doean't anyone on here notice how Djokovic employs his nasty gamesmanship in some matches.

He does, but there's a couple of key issues with knocking him for that.

First, it's in no way illegal, he can play how he likes. Second, it can only happen when he's already been outplayed really, no point in going 2-0 down for no reason is there?

...and I don't think his opponents usually fall for it anyway, he just naturally ups his game at these points IMO.

Great stats there bdj.

The "gamesmanship" accusation only occurs when he's played Murray. Funny that.

Weird that not maintaining an exceptionally high standard throughout a long match is talked of as gamesmanship.

Thrilled for Djokovic - if Nadal had won the French Open it was getting tricky for Djokovic to get ahead in the Grand Slam race- and I think he is the real deal genuine GOAT.

I learned the hard way many many years ago, bit of a Federer fan - intensely disliked Djokovic because he invariably cost me money as I would lean to Federer. I realised not very long after and thankfully in time - it was all about Djokovic - his best was better than either Federer or Nadal's best.

He has winning record against both, longest time at number 1 and if he wins the GS race - then its open and shut case in my view. Of course it's hard to compare generations so Laver has a case - but Nadal, Federer and Djokovic are absolutely comparable.

Laver has no case, he would not make the top 50 in today's tennis.

fed only won 3 slams in 2017/18 when joko was injured. joko has totally destroyed fed since 2013, winning their 6 slam meetings since then, including 4 finals. novak has raced past him in the masters series title race also. only people who think fed is the goat are the english language sports media who think wimbledon is the world championships of tennis and there is only 1 major. even joko beating fed in all 3 finals wont deter them from saying that fed has 8 wimbledons v novaks 5........well there are 4 majors and they are all equal, with the perfect mix of 2 on the neutral hardcourts and 1 on each extreme.
novak has now beaten 3 of the next generation in 3 slam finals - thiem 2020 aussie, medvedev 2021 aussie, tsitsipas 2021 french....i would put them as better players than those that fed was beating when he racked up all those slams 2003-2006.....philipoussis, hewitt, safin, roddick, gonzalez.........
joko has beaten nadal in all three masters clay finals. fed could only do this in the hamburg/madrid event. and as we know joko has beaten rafa on way to winning french. fed could not do this, losing in all 6 meetings v rafa at roland garros.
THERE IS NO ARGUEMENT FOR FED BEING THE GOAT. NONE WHATSOEVER. THE ENGLISH SPEAKING MEDIA NEED TO REPLACE THEIR LIST OF GOATS - TIGER WOODS, M ALI, DON BRADMAN, PELE, USAIN BOLT, ROGER FEDERER WITH TIGER WOODS, M ALI, DON BRADMAN, PELE, USAIN BOLT, NOVAK DJOKOVIC.

Djokovic was in his prime when he started beating a 32+ year old Federer in the interest of fairness.

34 year old joko is better than 34 fed......fed beat nadal only once in four mettings at aus open - 2017 when he was 36.......fed has beaten nadal in their last 7 meetings on hardcourt despite being in his late 30's.........fed at 36/37 was just as good as fed 24/25......only player that stopped him winning more grand slams in his 30's is joko..........novak beat him in below slam meetings-
2014 wimb final
2015 uso final
2015 wimb final
2016 aus semi
2019 wimb final
2020 aus semi

federer has reached 8 grand slam finals in his 30's, winning 4 v murray, nadal, cilic and cilic..........and losing 4 v NOVAK DJOKOVIC.........its very clear that fed has playec consistently brilliant from 2003-2019, but nadal but joko in particular have kicked his ass overall.........

Federer had Championship point against Djokovic at Wimbledon at the age of 37, practically nothing in it in that match, physically Federer is no where near as quick as he used to be with his feet, that counts for a lot against younger players

that 2019 wimb final will keep fed awake at night........there has never been a high profile match where a player lost when he should have won.

people seem to think that joko will get 25 slam plus. i dont think he will. i reckon maybe 3 more. hes 34. remember he did not win a slam from july 2016 to june 2018 - thats 2 years - due to an elbow injury. another injury like that and his career is over. nadal might win another french or wimbledon. in his last 2 wins at USO he did not have to beat fed or novak.......thiem, med, tsitsipas and zverev are getting better on hardcourts.

federer has no chance of winning another....he should retire and will at the end of this year after he turns 40. another beating by novak in a slam final will be too painful for him to keep going.

20 incoming.

Thought Wesdag was going to jinx him when he predicted a Djokovic victory at 5-2 up in the first set.

You have to hand it to Novak though. He has all the tools.

I never disliked him and often rooted for him on the basis that, whatever the tennis crowd wants, I want to be on the other.

But I just cannot have him as the greatest of all time because he doesn't dismiss his opponents like a god, which Federer, Natratilova, and perhaps Borg and McEnroe used to do. Rod Laver maybe but I don't remember his tennis pre the change.

pretty good at dismissing federer

In later life.

Of course, tennis players are not gods and time catches up with all of them.

There was something undeniable about Federer in his prime. I don't get that vibe with Djokovic.

Clearly a great player though.

Was never in doubt imo.

Berretini simply doesn't have the tools to go h2h with Djoko for 4 or 5 hours.

He always seems to find a way to win.

Berretini should give up gluten

What price did Novak go after losing the 1st set?
I didn't watch after that. The ball bouncing on serve just got too much.

1.54.........

brain dead jockeys 11 Jul 21 16:53 
pretty good at dismissing federer

--------------------------------------

  Spot on.

the three majors from the pro circuit should be included in these totals

Laver won 11 grand slam tournaments but also 8 of the pro majors

Rosewall won 8 grand slams and 15 (!) pro majors

Pancho Gonzales won 0 grand slams but 11 pro majors

there was a period in the 1960s where the pro majors had a higher standard than the amateur events

so Rosewall is really on 23

by the 1960s nearly all the top players were on the pro circuit

seems odd not to count them

it's absurd to suggest winning those pro majors wasn't a big deal, or that Laver and Rosewall wouldn't have won more amateur slams if they hadn't gone pro

Rosewall won all 9 pro majors that he entered between 1960 and 1963

Rosewall was undefeated at pro majors for four years

correction Gonzalez won 14 majors: two amateur US Opens and 12 pro majors

I always think Borg is greatly underestimated in these GOAT scale arguments. The guy retired ridiculously young, and played at a time when there were really only 3 slams of note (a lot of the top players of that time hardly ever entered the Aus Open). So you have to put a "p" beside Borg's name, or a massive asterisk, imo.

Borg was a great player, but to never win a slam on hardcourt must rule him out for GOAT...?

3rd time in 4 olympics he has competed in that joko lost in semis......set up, break up.........loses. cannot believe it.

yes Borg never winning the US Open is kind of awkward

people who talk up rod laver - dont get me wrong, he is in top 5 ever - forget that he won 6 of his slams when half the best players in the world were not playing in the slams...........
the modern slam only began in 1988 when the aus open went to hardcourt........since then all the top players have played in the aus open except agassi who for some dumb reason skipped it from 1988-1994.........

borg, mac. connors didnt care about the aus open and mac and connors didnt take the french seriously.........no proper european clay court campaign........indoor tennis, wimb, and USO was the only tennis that mattered in the 1970's and early 1980's........there has been a massive shift since then to outdoor hardcourts with indian wells and miami being the most important masters events. indoor tennis is an after thought, all the players being exhausted post USO......

Laver won 8 pro majors, and also missed several years of competing for the amateur majors

some people think this guy was the GOAT

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellsworth_Vines

Vines went to USC on a basketball scholarship, and later got bored with tennis, switching to golf where we won four pro tournaments

All players of the past should be marked up due to them including gluten in their diet
As illustrated by NJ, it can be a hindrance.

lack of gluten seems to get you anger issues though, so it probably evens out.

Joker illustrating yet again why he will never be revered the way Fed and Rafa are, GOAT or not.

He got so much good publicity during the Olympics for being accomodating when other athletes asked for selfies with him, and then in the end it was back to square one for him.

Will novak win the 2021 USO?..........NOT SURE. So many times he has failed here when he should have won. lost 5 finals. ouch.

doesnt look good for rafa......fed is defo finished. path is clear for novak to win many more slams but zverev, tsitsipas and medvedev are getting better. the new era is here.

Its in the bag, the 2021 US Open, for Djokovic.

starting to regret the prediction of Djokovic winning the 2021 US Open. Just thought it best to add got a strange vibe about it now. Fingers crossed but not so sure as yesterday.

I'm on Medvedev from here

Djockvic needs this one because he's not taking the jab and they will kick him off tour

wimbledon 2022 will be his best chance of winning number 21 since none of the other decent players can play on grass.

Aussie is always his best chance but if he slips up there, he really will start to feel the pressure.

I don't think he'll win another Wimbledon. You're right that there are less players that can play well on grass, but it doesn't need a top player to take him out on that surface.
NK would fancy his chances, for one.

He might have issues with the AO given his stance on vaccines

There's a reason why he's won 9 Aussie Opens but only 3 US Opens on the same surface, nobody exerts more physical and mental energy throughout the season than Novak and by the time the US Open comes round, he's knackered, swap their positions on the calendar around and the results would then be reversed with it. He has enough to get through to the final like he did in 2016 when he looked out of sorts as well, but lost to the first top quality player he faced, as he did v Wawrinka back then. You don't need a gold medal or calendar grand slam to project greatness, he's already won 4 slams in a row before, not sure what the obsession is with doing in the same season, it's harder across two seasons for various reasons.

The New York crowd incidentally are such nob heads, the umpire was meek and had no control, how they were allowed to jeer and make as much noise as they wanted throughout Medvedev's service games was unreal, no other tournament is like that, just a bunch of classless, malnourished inbred hillbilly's, was like a circus.

Was certainly knackered coming into this final - spent over 5 hours more on court than Medvedev.

How many Slams do people think Novak will have won by the time he retires? That tough loss in the US Open final does leave a small cloud hanging over him heading into 2022. I still fancy him to win 2 Slams next year - most likely the Oz Open and Wimbledon. I still think Rafa has it in him to win 1 more French Open. He definitely wasn't anywhere near his best when beaten in the final by Novak this year but it was still hugely competitive.

Might not even play the Aus Open if it has a vaccine mandate!

Covid - Djok's biggest rival now

What a sporting hero with intelligence. refusing the experimental jab when there is no reason for any healthy human being to have it.

Pity none of the sheeple have realised....

Only Rafa can stop him now.

Federer is finnish - should just declare at 20.

rafa is the goat....has 21 slams and a better h2h in grand slam finals v fed (6-3) and joko (5-4)..............h2h in all grand slam matches is 10-4 v fed and 10-7 v joko.......

novak really has messed this up and has had some bad luck too.....he would have been even money to win 2020 wimbledon but it didnt take place......no rafa at 2020 USO and he gets disqualified and now he misses 2022 aus open......thats three slams he could have won.......he has won his last 8 hardcourt matches v rafa so its hard to imagine rafa would have beaten him at aus open 2022.....despite that rafa is now the goat. this is an amazing victory coming from 2 sets down. i think he was 1-2 and love 40 in the 3rd set as well.........still cant believe it

Yeah, my sentiments exactly re Novak. But for covid & temper, he could quite easily be on 23 slams now.

This must be Rafa's most amazing slam victory considering where he came from (including injury lay off).

Was 2-3 & love 40 down in the 3rd set - I mentally gave up at that stage.

rafa has not won a set off novak on hardcourt since 2013.........9 matches since then. this sort of stat will haunt novak

Indeed

Fairly clear stance going forward.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-60354068

Novak Djokovic has said he would rather miss out on future tennis trophies than be forced to get a Covid vaccine.

"I was never against vaccination," he told the BBC, confirming he'd had vaccines as a child, "but I've always supported the freedom to choose what you put in your body."

Djokovic said he hoped vaccination requirements in certain tournaments would change, adding he was hoping he "can play for many more years".

But he also confirmed he was willing to forego the chance to become statistically the greatest male tennis player of all time because he felt so strongly. Djokovic's rival, Rafael Nadal, has won 21 Grand Slam singles titles - the most of any male competitor.

Asked why, Djokovic replied: "Because the principles of decision making on my body are more important than any title or anything else. I'm trying to be in tune with my body as much as I possibly can."

djokovic states in an exclusive interview with the bbc that he wont get the vaccine and is willing to sacrifice a chance to be the goat by doing so......well that probably means he will never play in the aus open again.......i cannot see them allowing him to play without the vaccine even if covid becomes like any other flu virus.
signals from the french open are mixed.
tim henman says he will be allowed to play wimbledon.
as for the USO...........no idea
its a toss up now as to who will end as the goat......people keep writing off rafa on hardcourts but he keeps winning when he doesnt have to play novak.......2017 USO, 2019 USO and 2022 AUS open were won by him.....he didnt have to play novak........mr djokovic has won their last 9 meetings on hardcourt without dropping a set.......so dismiss rafas chance of winning a major outside of the french at your peril......

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60354068

nadal wins his 3rd hardcourt event in a row. playing as good as ever. he is the new fav to end as the goat now given novaks problems, zverev has lost the plot, tsitsipas cannot get it done and medvedev must be depressed given the conflict in ukraine............more slams this year for rafa

As soon as a fully fit and ready to play Novak was not allowed to play the Australian Open, and Nadal effectively won it by winning the 'without Djokovic' market, using the slam number count to determine the GOAT became essentially meaningless.

Djokovic owns the Australian really, was coming off three winning Oz open finals (including a routine battering of Nadal in 2019). There are reasons why Novak is singularly hard to beat at this tournament, as has been mentioned before he is the best at starting the season off with maximum effectiveness/energy/focus (which in turn makes him more vulnerable by the time of the US open as his unique battery runs dry)

It will be interesting if he gets to play the French (as starts to seem more possible)and gets a crack at Rafa on his 'home patch'.
I would certainly expect to see a certain gleam in his eyes.

One comparison that springs to mind (ie a situation where an arbritary number of titles count became meaningless after an incident outwith the player's control and was not related to injury etc) was Graf and Seles.

There will always be the argument that Seles was owning Graf prior to the stabbing and that therefore Steffi's ultimate haul was sort of meaningless. The counter argument was that Graf as one of the best players ever to touch a tennis racket (and a supreme problem solver) would ultimately have worked out a way to overcome the Seles threat.

But infuriatingly we'll never know, just as we'll never know if Nadal could ever have solved his inferiority to Novak in Australia without the help of the Australian government.

i agree with you about seles. 9 slams by 19/20 and gets stabbed......that story never got the attention it deserves.......she had taken over from graf

covid is going away. kyle irving is not allowed to play home nba games in new york because he is not jabbed.....however new york officials announced yesterday they are reviewing that new york ban. novak is allowed to play in italian open.......he will also be going to paris.......wimbledon will be yes. by september new york will drop the unvaxed ban......by jan 2023 australia will look stupid if they still have a ban but who knows.....novak says he wants to go back there. he doesnt care what others think. i love novak but rafa is my fav player by a whisker.....being unvaxed wont stop novak from playing anymore slams except maybe the aus open. he has beaten rafa in their last 9 hardcourt matches is straight sets. i understand your sentiment........however rafa has missed the last two us opens but novak still DID NOT WIN........he got hammered in the 2021 final by medvedev and rafa has just beaten him in the aus open final and as well as mexico.......rafa won the 2022 aus fair and square..........by june 2022 it will be 222-20 cause rafa is a cert to win the 2022 french open.......i am worried about novaks mental state due to this whole covid affair......he didnt look in great shape in dubai.

,
https://www.tennismajors.com/atp/djokovic-clear-to-play-monte-carlo-roland-garros-as-france-suspends-its-covid-19-pass-591847.html

novak will be allowed to play the french

More records:

47th slam semi
6 times been in all 4 slams in the same year
250 wins v top 10 players

Debate well & truly over.

*6 times been in all 4 slam semis in the same year

With a draw like that he couldn't fail to make the semi .Alcaraz gets Sinner,Medvedev ,Zverev ,Rublev ,in his half,Djoko gets 2 guys he hammers everytime Ruud and Fritz.

Djoko gets 2 guys he hammers everytime


Fritz in particular is going to end up with the most horrific record against him. He made no impression whatsoever.
Absolute cakewalk.

Just as well the Shelton match was the night match after all from an 'American mens tennis is back' point of view.

wimbledon not being played in 2020........novak banned from 2022 AUS open and USO........novak being unfairly disqualified from 2020 USO

he could easily be on 25, even more...........novak v carlos 2023 USO final is a certainty. what a great new rivalry.

Med had other ideas, moved Carlos out of the way for Djok...

But will HE now become a slam blocker for him I wonder - has beaten him on hard courts...

he's also beaten him (easily) in the final here 2 years ago.

End of fred.

Jury's out on the PILL. IN THE SECOND SET looks at times completely knackered, drinks some concoction drinks plus the "PILL" comes back to life.

He's been doing the rope-a-dope routine for years now.
Mugged Murray a few times doing it.