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cjhornet
12 Dec 10 12:31
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Date Joined: 21 Jan 02
| Topic/replies: 15,691 | Blogger: cjhornet's blog
We have our first known Song/Singer combo.

Our friends in Switzerland give you a toe tapping catchy little song by Anna Rossinelli. Certain to do better than Il Pleut De L'Or but unlikelyn to be a winner imho.

http://escdaily.com/articles/5035

Quite a bit of early news about incuding the return of Italy, Austria, San Marino and possible returns for Hungary and Montenegro. While Slovakia may possibly withdraw.
Armenia have selected their singer:

http://www.eurovision.tv/page/news?id=22543&_t=It%27s+Emmy+for+Armenia%21

as have Cyprus (Christos Mylordos), Bosnia&Herz (Dino Merlin)  Netherlands (3JS) plus of course the return of the lovely Lena Meyer-Landrut for hosts Germany.

Please post any news you come across here. See you in Dusseldorf. Grin
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Report five leaves left May 20, 2011 11:38 AM BST
Interesting results.

Ireland backed by the Finnish jury, but not by the public it seems.
Louis must have offered some nice sweetners ;)

Sweden clearly backed by the public, but nothing from the Finnish jury.

Azer and Austria backed more by the juries than the public too.

Will be interesting if others look similar.
Report stu May 20, 2011 11:42 AM BST
...and another 0 racked up both ways for Slovenia...grrr [>o]
Report five leaves left May 20, 2011 11:58 AM BST
A very different story in Estonia -

Estonian public broadcaster ETV/ERR have revealed the results of the jury voting in the final of the 2011 Eurovision Song Contest. Denmark got the 12 points from the Estonian jury.

The results have been announced on the programme Ringvaade. You can check them out below:

•12 Denmark
•10 Sweden
•8 Italy
•7 Spain
•6 Slovenia
•5 Romania
•4 Switzerland
•3 Serbia
•2 France
•1 Finland

The outcome of the Estonian vote, combining jury vote and televoting was as follows:

•12 Sweden
•10 Denmark
•8 Azerbaijan
•7 Finland
•6 Italy
•5 Russia
•4 Spain
•3 Georgia
•2 Slovenia
•1 Romania
Report five leaves left May 20, 2011 12:02 PM BST
Sweden again did well with the public, or better than Denmark anyway.

Nothing for Azer from the jury, but 3rd overall, so almost certainly won the pv.

Good points for Slovenia from the juries. Not liked so much by the public.

And I knew those baltic states would love their heavy rock.
Nowt from the jury , but did ok with the public.
Report honestcl May 20, 2011 12:30 PM BST
With a jury vote for Georgia I could have collected on the e/w portion at least on my Georgia bets!! 

What is up with the public not going for Maja!!!???
Report five leaves left May 20, 2011 12:38 PM BST
Most voters are women or gay men and didn't want to **** her senseless.
Report johnnyrant May 20, 2011 12:39 PM BST
Maybe it is also the don't vote for attractive women trend that carries through to the ESC...?
Report stu May 20, 2011 12:48 PM BST
Amazing to think that the 'attractive woman curse' is such an effect in a contest like the ESC! Bloody women voters!
Report Helmuthian Folds May 20, 2011 2:25 PM BST
Ireland backed by the Finnish jury, but not by the public it seems.

These are the full results of the Finnish jury vote:

    12 Hungary
    10 Azerbaijan
    8 Ireland
    7 Serbia
    6 Iceland
    5 Austria
    4 Italy
    3 France
    2 Lithuania
    1 Georgia

Find below the combined results of jury vote and televote for the 2011 Eurovision final:

    12 Hungary
    10 Ireland
    8 Iceland
    7 Estonia
    6 Sweden
    5 Azerbaijan
    4 France
    3 Italy
    2 Serbia
    1 Austria


Think you may want to look again Figgy, looks like their public liked it too! [;)]
Report johnnyrant May 20, 2011 3:10 PM BST
ZdZ's performance from 2005 - finished 6th so they did have some C&D form.
http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=DiXJB92mJlc
Report five leaves left May 20, 2011 3:50 PM BST
oh yes, cheers HF. Missed them there in 2nd
Report roach May 20, 2011 4:16 PM BST
was about to say I miss this thread. Good to see it's still going strong Blush
Report johnnyrant May 23, 2011 11:54 AM BST
With better styling, I think Georgia could have been top 5 - always thought their outfits were shocking:

The band Eldrine from Georgia have won the Barbara Dex award to the worst dressed act in the 2011 Eurovision Song Contest. They won the voting clearly ahead of Ireland's twins Jedward.

See below the full top-10 of the 2011 Barbara Dex award voting:

    Eldrine (Georgia), 133 votes
    Jedward (Ireland), 81
    Zdob si Zdub (Moldova), 66
    Yüksek Sadakat (Turkey), 61
    Homens da Luta (Portugal), 59
    Kati Wolf (Hungary), 56
    Aurela Gaçe (Albania), 45
    Daria Kinzer (Croatia), 31
    Maja Keuc (Slovenia), 28
    Dana International (Israel), 21
Report five leaves left May 23, 2011 12:29 PM BST
Gawd knows who voted for Maja and the Moldovans.

And no Blue or the Finnish lad?
Report bexley May 23, 2011 12:43 PM BST
Hmm my Eurovision success seems to have spelt the end of my usefulness for my Victor Chandler account. Severely limited on their current top price for Jess Ennis SPOTY. Had to happen eventually I guess [:x]
Report five leaves left May 23, 2011 1:15 PM BST
Join the club Bex.

I'm worried about one of the few firms I can still get on with after backing Greece for the 1st semi with them.
atm things are still ok as I got a reasonable bet on BGT with them.
Report stu May 23, 2011 1:53 PM BST
Gawd knows who voted for Maja and the Moldovans.

Like you mentioned before, gay men, women. Sad
Report johnnyrant May 23, 2011 2:19 PM BST
Is it possible to open a new account with a different card and then get your bets on?
Report bexley May 23, 2011 5:54 PM BST
Is it possible to open a new account with a different card and then get your bets on?


Any account although it had a different card would still be at an address and details currently on their system so they wouldn't open a new one I would imagine. That would be too easy I'd reckon [;)]
If you had another address, e-mail address perhaps even IP address needed then you could do it but then how many people have that? Not very knowledgeable on such cloak and dagger stuff.

A friend had offered before to open accounts and put some bets on for me. I may actually take him up on it next ESC. Obviously has to be someone you trust implicitly[;)]
Report johnnyrant May 23, 2011 6:00 PM BST
It's such a shame cos none of us are betting Harry Findlay amounts and given these firms' massive profits per year it's disappointing they decline Specials punters who are able to hold their own betting on the ESC etc.
Report bexley May 23, 2011 7:26 PM BST
What gets my back up Johnny is that it appears to me they simply cba to actually manage their liabilities. I don't win all the time and some bookmakers bets are hedges to others so someone has to take my money off me then.

When they are the standout price fine; take a small amount then cut your price, reaarange your liabilities, lay some off whatever. Don't offer me a derisiory amount and leave the price unchanged.

Like to hear it from their perspective but some chance of feedback on this subject I guess Devil
Report bexley May 23, 2011 7:30 PM BST
and today the bet was on SPOTY Jennifer Ennis. Large market I would have thought, she's 26 (?) been about for years  - I don't have some amazing insider information to make a killing on. Just wth are they running scared of?
Report bexley May 23, 2011 7:31 PM BST
Jessica* even, there - I'm so knowledgeable on specials I can't even get her name right lol
Report bexley May 23, 2011 7:33 PM BST
Haha just noticed VC did in fact cut her from 8's to 6's today - that at least makes more sense to me.
Report johnnyrant May 23, 2011 8:20 PM BST
That was no doubt following your £2 bet, bex after being declined bigger ffs Cry
Report J.O.TOBIN. May 24, 2011 3:50 PM BST
Johnny they wont let you open a new account on a new card, though if you do it will be marked up as a duplicate account within 24 hours so not worth the hassle.
Best advice would be to open one in a nephews name young male 19-25 ish would be the least suspect, accounts Ive had in the female gender seem to get restricted quicker, though my Topper account who was in fact a 71 year old male lasted a good while.
You will also need a new computer as they check the ip address so use the phone if you can. Also leave the money in your account as long as possible and if you do withdraw do it from an address to which the account is registered.
Finally use the shops whenever possible.
Report johnnyrant May 24, 2011 8:18 PM BST
Thanks JOT. It is a real dilemma and increasingly a struggle to get bets placed online. Even placing tv bets in a local shop, they keep having to phone through bets and I get the impression it'll only need a few more wins and they won't be willing to lay bets either.
Report J.O.TOBIN. May 24, 2011 8:58 PM BST
A lot depends on your local shop I know coral will lay a decent bet in shop but they don't quote as many events as they do online. From memory fred was £50 but as with corals for events. Hills will ring up for events not quoted but its £50 max and Laddies you can check on the info bar on site and then go and request up to that amount in shop.
I always earwig their convos if when they ring they quote a number that will be your log number meaning they are recording your bets its unlikely they will restrict you without a full picture of your business. zero means known but not logged regular means your ok and s means stranger from my long gone time at hills they used to lay bigger bets to strangers funnily enough. Other people in the industry currently will know more than me.
Report J.O.TOBIN. May 24, 2011 9:09 PM BST
P.S. when I go in a shop I always act daft (not hard I know ) but when I went into coral to back Josie for big bro I asked do they take bets on it? what does gender of the winner mean? then said my wife and daughter both liked Josie and I hated John James but liked Corin so I will have £300 Josie @6/4 and £300 @evens a female winner, by playing daft they thought I knew nothing so took the bets, it was only when my daughter went in 15 mins later whilst my wife was over the road doing the same bets did the alarm bells ring, 10 minutes later it was downBlush
Report johnnyrant May 24, 2011 9:40 PM BST
Like your style JOT Grin Those BB bets were quality.
Report johnnyrant May 25, 2011 3:14 PM BST
One last time, for the Azeri backers Grin

http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=hVpvAMFT8Ww&feature=player_embedded
Report honestcl May 26, 2011 7:31 AM BST
Soon the high street shops will take horse bets and the roulette machines in shop and that'll be your lot.

I like the playing dumb routine comments - been through that many a time.  Ha ha

Dropping money on the floor and generally looking confused; taking off my hat just before entering the shop so my hair's all over the place and i odn't even look like I'm capable of dressing myself; not filling out the coupon correctly; always making sure to mention any recent losses in conversation and how 'I hope my luck's going to change;' show some interest in the virtual greyhounds/Speed Arena by asking questions (although never bet on it)

Ah yes, many a Saturday morning spent doing these plus of course opening loyalty cards at Ladcrooks in different names across the city so that I always have to remember which name I'm known as in a certain shop which is a bit embarassing as I've become quite pally with certain staff who share my love of NFL but they think my name is Colin. 

Also leads to interesting moments when staff from one shop appear in another one where I'm known as a different name!
Report timbucktooth May 26, 2011 12:04 PM BST
Colin?  Colin Fishwick?  Are you John Stape?
Report johnnyrant May 26, 2011 1:35 PM BST
televoting/jury vote split revealed:
http://www.eurovision.tv/
page/news?id=36713&_t=ebu_reveals_split_televoting_and_jury_results
Report five leaves left May 26, 2011 1:45 PM BST
Azer won the pv then and as expected Italy won the jury vote by a mile.

UK really hammered by the juries, whereas Denmark given a big boost by them.
Norway and Armenia would have both got through the semi on pv.

Time to ditch the juries imo.
Report johnnyrant May 26, 2011 2:02 PM BST
what staggers me is how Ireland managed such a high jury vote - 119 - wtf? How could juries give it that much and Bosnia only 90? That is completely non-sensical to me.
Italy's huge score with the juries also seems inflated beyond belief - 251!!!!
Disgracefully low totals for Austria and Slovenia on the televote, which is why the juries are needed, but exactly what ticks the jury boxes remains something of a mystery.
Report five leaves left May 26, 2011 2:04 PM BST
Well clearly the ballads tick their boxes.

Slovenia and Lithuania won the 2 semis with the juries.


They then seem to pick uptempo numbers to support almost by random.
Report johnnyrant May 26, 2011 2:05 PM BST
And what did Blue do to receive only 57 - moon the judges for the entire 3 minutes? Sure, the bloggers told us they didn't sing well but 57!!??
Report bexley May 26, 2011 2:07 PM BST
I'm really pleased Azerbaijan won the public vote.

I'm split on losing the jury vote altogether, couldn't they make it 25% say

Italy got too close to a win for mey liking in all honesty, it would have been a mockery of the competition if they had won with that public vote.
Report bexley May 26, 2011 2:11 PM BST
The regional voting/diasporo effects seem to be lessening each year to me. Perhaps when the eastern blocs first started voting they all stood by each other, they seem more willing to vote for others to me but thats just an impression. Would have to dig further into the results.

If Azerb only got what, 3? 12 pointers with their diaspora (with no Turkey or Armenia in the final) the jury vote is looking less required as an anti-diasporo device
Report bexley May 26, 2011 2:13 PM BST
and LOL ar Russia's jury vote [;)]
Report johnnyrant May 26, 2011 2:21 PM BST
I can't laugh at that one bex - one of my big reverses on the night having backed Russia big to finish top 10.
Report five leaves left May 26, 2011 2:22 PM BST
The regional voting/diasporo effects seem to be lessening each year to me.

It does seem to be. Maybe because of the more widespread use of internet in the east which means greater exposure to western pop music via youtube, itunes, etc.


..and yet TBF the song was crap and the staging never really came together.
In terms of vocal he was in a different league to Jedward and Eric though.
Report five leaves left May 26, 2011 2:23 PM BST
yes, not yet*
Report five leaves left May 26, 2011 2:25 PM BST
Lithuania winning the 2nd semi is the biggest joke.

Awful dated Disney type ballad.


Basically any ballad, regardless of quality is lapped up by the juries.

A country just needs one the public will vote for too.
Push Forward may well have been one.
Report bexley May 26, 2011 2:32 PM BST
Juries really are hard to work out. Looking through the list I would have sworn Finland and France would have had far higher jury performances. Didn't they both supposedly nail their Friday night jury rehearsals?

Ballads as you say the only constant

Don't see popera returning anytime soon [;)]
Report bexley May 26, 2011 2:34 PM BST
..oh and a second LOL for Switzerlands public vote.

Very harsh indeed methinks and I was miles of with that one
Report five leaves left May 26, 2011 2:38 PM BST
It did ok in the semi where I thought it really stood out and she sang it well.
It was lost in the final, just after a break and her vocal wasn't great either.
Report johnnyrant May 26, 2011 2:42 PM BST
The strange thing is, if you recall Malta from 2010, that was a lot like Lithuania 2011 - yet it finished 7th on the jury vote with a miserly 66pts and didn't even qualify for the final.
Here's a reminder:
http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=oWkm-MD9RAQ&feature=related

And not forgetting the saccharine Belarus entry, 'Butterflies' in 2010 that received 47pts from the juries.

http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=pzVV6diZPws
Report five leaves left May 26, 2011 2:46 PM BST
I guess as the juries change each year, we must have had some very ballad friendly ones this year.
It could be all change next year.


One thing pointed out by DS.
As a number of bloggers mentioned at the time Blue were shocking in the rehearsal that the juries voted on. Still not great on the liveshow but alot better.
Report bexley May 26, 2011 2:48 PM BST
On balance I'd like them to reduce the jury element or ditch it altogether.

My main fear would be lots of Eric/Alex/Jedwards every year cleaning up on the sms voting element. Tbh I'd rather see this than something like Italy winning undesevedly and in my eyes at least, impossible to predict.

And in the end in all honesty I thought Sweden was the best performance of the night, just the song needed to be stronger. No problems with something like that winning. (and yes I know I was dead against it for weeks Cool)
Report bexley May 26, 2011 2:51 PM BST
and just to reiterate Italy 251 jury score - WTF Devil
Report five leaves left May 26, 2011 2:56 PM BST
Insane.

Reason enough to ditch the juries.

Looking at ballads. Georgia did ok in the pv last week.
Plenty of mates though.

And that Serbian dirge won a few years back.
Report five leaves left May 26, 2011 2:57 PM BST
Last year even.
Report johnnyrant May 26, 2011 3:09 PM BST
televote-only would be fatal - the ESC would be hijacked by teen-appealing dirge like Saade and Jedward. Italy clearly got inflated scores from juries on their return - if that's not internal politics at work, I don't know what is.
For Jedward to beat Dino Merlin on the jury vote... that is a far more troubling development imho, and frankly a disgrace.
Report five leaves left May 26, 2011 3:14 PM BST
Italy clearly got inflated scores from juries on their return - if that's not internal politics at work, I don't know what is.

I agree and agreed with your post on sofabet.
I know bunnyman doesn't believe TPTB use unofficial routes to guide the juries towards favoured songs/countries, but like you I'm pretty sure they do.

I wouldn't be surprised that the guy on 5live who suggested amongst other things the juries are asked to look for 'hits', is correct.

That would explain the relatively decent jury vote for Jedward and Eric.
Report johnnyrant May 26, 2011 4:04 PM BST
It's bizarre when, on the one hand, juries show a propensity to favour ballads; on the other, they get behind what they perceive as potential 'hits' which in the case of Ireland means supporting a song that isn't actually sung at all.
And how do you explain this one?
Ireland - semi 2 jury vote 66, final jury vote 119
Lithuania - semi 1 jury vote 113, final jury vote 66
Report Cider May 26, 2011 6:52 PM BST
Denmark very poor on the pv. Azer proponents can be pleased with themselves.
Report honestcl May 27, 2011 7:30 AM BST
timbucktooth
Colin?  Colin Fishwick?  Are you John Stape?

____

LOL.  No, the random name I picked was Colin Lloyd - why I picked a darts player to have the same name as, god only knows - just seemed a good idea at the time and it matched my initials (which when you're trying to cover your tracks probably isn't that clever an idea!)
Report stu May 27, 2011 8:22 AM BST
Looking at the final breakdown, as we already suspected, apart from Italy the biggest discrepancy between public vote and jury vote was Slovenia.

4th highest on Jury vote - this would have won me a fortune as a result.
4th from bottom on public vote - W T F! Even fecking Lithuania and Spain beat it ffs!

Can we just nuke the european populations please! Devil Laugh
Report honestcl May 27, 2011 9:20 AM BST
johnnyrant
And how do you explain this one?
Ireland - semi 2 jury vote 66, final jury vote 119
Lithuania - semi 1 jury vote 113, final jury vote 66
_______

I've been doing the Eurovision maths in my head for two weeks now and the way I see it is that in a semi a jurist only has 19 countries to choose between.  Come the final they have an additional 15 countries that they haven't previously judged that 'join in the fun' so from that it's quite conceivable that a song they gave 12 to in the semi is surpassed by anything up to 6 or 7 of those (take last year when when semi 2 was clearly way ahead of the quality of semi 1) and a song getting a 12 on the Tuesday from a jury may only get a 3 or 4 come Saturday's final.

In addition, points have to be distributed across 25 instead of 19 countries, so by nature the ave points per country goes down by around 25%

On the flip side there are more juries contributing (nearly double) so the total points are higher even though the ave per country goes down.

All in all, it makes for a very unpredictable mix.
Report honestcl May 27, 2011 9:24 AM BST
Looking at the final breakdown, as we already suspected, apart from Italy the biggest discrepancy between public vote and jury vote was Slovenia.

4th highest on Jury vote - this would have won me a fortune as a result.
4th from bottom on public vote - W T F! Even fecking Lithuania and Spain beat it ffs!

________

Proof that man's greatest creation - the knee high leather boot - is simply not appreciated by women and gay men voters in ESC. 

A tragedy.
Report johnnyrant May 27, 2011 9:56 AM BST
Shows that quality, solo female ballads face an uphill struggle to make the top 10 unless the nation in question has plenty of voting friends it can rely on, or a sand artist to help boost votes. They will always do poorly on the televote because the televote is not conducive to discerning taste. Just look at Alyosha in 2010 for Ukraine - the stand out vocal, and ballad, but only sneaking into 10th.
Report honestcl May 27, 2011 12:10 PM BST
To be fair, the sand artist thing was a masterstroke.  I'd seen it a couple of times before but for millions it'd have been the first time they'd seen such an 'act' which made it instantly memorable and with the late slot it was a great piece piece of staging at the right time of the night.
Report stu May 27, 2011 1:22 PM BST
Still amazing to think that the song/performance itself appeared to barely influence the televoters though, regardless of what the hell they were wearing! I mean I've always poo-pooed the idea that in many cases you can ignore the songs/performance, yet this one has now made me think again - Slovenia (and Austria)were mauled by the televote despite both having great songs.

If anything I'd say ditch the televote, rather than the other way around!
Report bunnyman May 28, 2011 8:59 AM BST
five leaves left 26 May 11 15:14 
Italy clearly got inflated scores from juries on their return - if that's not internal politics at work, I don't know what is.

I agree and agreed with your post on sofabet.
I know bunnyman doesn't believe TPTB use unofficial routes to guide the juries towards favoured songs/countries, but like you I'm pretty sure they do.


Morning Figgy, I can't remember whether I made the point on here or on Sofabet, and I'm not sure if anyone made a counter arguement so I'll make the point again. You are talking about 6 people from 43 different countries, many of whom (perhaps all - I don't know) have no connection with ESC except they have been asked to sit on a jury in a particular year.  I find the idea of TPTB steering the juries in Italy's favour appealling but I don't see how that could possibly happen in practical terms.  Imagine you were the top man at ESC wanting to give Italy a nice return to the contest, how would you go about trying to influence 258 unrelated egotistic proud people in such a way that was subtle enough for them not to cry foul and go blabbing to the media, but strong enough to have a meaningful impact? 

I wouldn't be surprised that the guy on 5live who suggested amongst other things the juries are asked to look for 'hits', is correct.

Not sure this is in question figgy, it was 100% the case in 2010 because it was spelt out on the official site.
Report honestcl May 28, 2011 9:13 AM BST
Since I got the CD a couple of weeks ago I'm listening to certain songs now that I barely gave any time to before - Holland (not bad) and even France (refused to listen to it more than twice pre-contest as it reminded me of my giant potential red!) being two examples but the one that really gets me is Italy. 

It's OK I guess for the first two minutes but the last minute is just a noise.  It really is not good.  How on earth did that get 2nd?  The song was bad; the draw was average; the staging was nowt special.  2010 generally made sense across the board.  I didn't win every bet I placed but the ones I lost I could agree with why I'd lost. 

I made money on this ESC although a large chunk of that was down to getting lucky with Greece in the semis and it covered many smaller losses (Hungary, Slovenia, Austria Top 10 etc.)

Italy in 2nd is something I'm finding really hard to reconcile
Report five leaves left May 28, 2011 10:33 AM BST
wouldn't be surprised that the guy on 5live who suggested amongst other things the juries are asked to look for 'hits', is correct.

Not sure this is in question figgy, it was 100% the case in 2010 because it was spelt out on the official site.


OK, cheers. Didn't know that.
Altho iirc It wasn't in some of the official advice given to the juries that I read.


As for whether TPTB that use unofficial lines to guide juries, we'll never know for sure.
I believe it's very likely to be the case, as the idea that they all decided independently to support Italy this year and not support the pop-opera of France (remember they voted on his rehearsal which by all accounts was very good), just doesn't add up to me.
Report bunnyman May 28, 2011 1:45 PM BST
As for whether TPTB that use unofficial lines to guide juries, we'll never know for sure.

Figgy we would know for sure if just one of the 258 people in the juries let the cat out of the bag and that hasn't happened.
Report five leaves left May 28, 2011 4:54 PM BST
I'm not saying they ring up all the juries and say,
'hey guys, you should all to vote for Italy this year and don't give too many votes to that French tosspot'.

It would take something much more subtle than that.
Much more along the lines of,
'Isn't it great to see Italy back. Let's hope they stay around for a few years. Nice little ditty the guy sings too.
As for the French. What do you reckon guys?. Should opera be part of Eurovision? hmmmmm, I'm not sure'


Or last year. ' Have you seen all the youtube hits this German girl is getting?. She seems to be very popular.......'
Report bunnyman May 28, 2011 5:38 PM BST
I think you've summed the problem up perfectly there figgy.  If as a juror I that was said to me it would be crystal clear what I was bring asked to do, and I'd either protest or do the opposite of what was being asked of me.  If it was more subtle it would have no impact. 

Apart from that, you have 258 people that never meet up in the same place, and are spread around 43 countries in groups of 6. How would you get such a message across?
Report johnnyrant May 28, 2011 6:43 PM BST
Don't know why you have the notion of them being so objective and individual bunnyman. I think there's enormous scope for jury members to get together and collectively decide how their vote goes. And it would be very simple and straight forward for the ESC to send a directive to all juries explaining the importance of having Italy back in the competition in future years for the sake of the future prosperity of the competition. It wouldn't be 'you have to give Italy 12pts', and it wouldn't have to leave jury members scurrying to the press.
Report stu May 28, 2011 7:07 PM BST
Especially as we mentioned before the juries are very small in numbers.
Report bunnyman May 29, 2011 8:57 AM BST
Don't know why you have the notion of them being so objective and individual bunnyman.

Why would they be anything else Johny?  I doubt they are paid a fortune if anything to participate, I doubt if any of them have any vested interest in the future of the contest.  Why would they become the lapdogs of the organisers?  These are all proud and determined individuals who have achieved something in the music industry, doesn't the idea that they would all suddenly become sheep and vote for a song they don't rate because someone has subtly suggested that they should seem bizarre?   

And what kind of directive would you send out if you were the organisers?  An email?  If I were in charge I wouldn't dare send out such an email to 258 employees whose future depended on the continuing success of the contest let alone a load of people who had no connection to it whatsover.  Here are the UK jury members for this year.  This is a sophisticated and mixed group of people, do you really think they could be influenced with a nod and a wink?  Would you dare send a 'directive' to a music journalist? 

David Arnold (Film Composer) CHAIRMAN
Paul Edwards (Music/Entertainment Lawyer)
Niamh Perry (Singer)
Celeste Richardson (Singer)
Kevin Hughes (DJ/Music Journalist)

It wouldn't surprise me at all if some juries got together and discussed how they should vote, but it would stagger me if TPTB tried to harnass that.
Report johnnyrant May 29, 2011 10:26 AM BST
We'll have to disagree on this one. It was the same last year imo with 'Satellite' getting an extra push from juries to bring the contest kicking and screaming into 2010.
I also think it is borne out in the anti-diaspora trend among juries, and giving an unlikely candidate like Lithuania such a huge boost.
Report bexley May 29, 2011 10:33 AM BST
I don't know exactly how its done but regardless of the methods I'm sure it is happening. I can see no other reason Italy scored a 251 in the jury vote this year.

I find it absolutely impossible to believe all these music pros were agreed to such an extent that a Jazz song, at best adequately performed with little in the way of staging and presentation could scoop the jury vote so readily.
Report bexley May 29, 2011 10:40 AM BST
I am usually the first on here to argue against conspiracy theory type explanations but we all noticed the continued gamble on Italy to win this year. We all saw nothing in the song, it was nowhere in the polls, there were even youtube videos mocking his singing. Yet the price kept coming in.

Given the jury result I can't help but believe someone was in possession of information that led them to believe a win or high placing was a distinct possibility. In the absence of any other explanation for me, this one is the only one that makes any logical sense.
Report bunnyman May 29, 2011 10:52 AM BST
johnnyrant 29 May 11 10:26 
We'll have to disagree on this one.


I hate it when people do that Laugh

I've put up what I think are very strong arguments, come back and fight your corner! Laugh

Would you seriously send a directive to a music journalist suggesting however subtly that he might like to vote for Italy?
Report bunnyman May 29, 2011 11:04 AM BST
bexley 29 May 11 10:40 
I am usually the first on here to argue against conspiracy theory type explanations but we all noticed the continued gamble on Italy to win this year. We all saw nothing in the song, it was nowhere in the polls, there were even youtube videos mocking his singing. Yet the price kept coming in.


I'm the opposite, I'm pretty cynical, if I could think of any way something like this could be achieved I'd be all over it.  But its just not possible without almost certain exposure. 

In fairness this was one of many silly gambles, and it pales in significance against the Jedward one.
Report johnnyrant May 29, 2011 11:24 AM BST
I have fought my corner. It is patently obvious in this year's jury result that Italy was heavily favoured on its return. ESC juries are a clandestine entity. To become a jury member does not equate to having status as a fiercely individual decision-maker. There are clearly behind-the-scenes machinations at work within the ESC. Those who end up on juries would be more delighted by the kudos of adding this accolade to their CV than stubbornly refusing to adhere to what the ESC requests.
Report bexley May 29, 2011 11:59 AM BST
In fairness this was one of many silly gambles, and it pales in significance against the Jedward one.

There was a certain logic to the Jedward gamble given the management and the hype. Other gambles happened around the NF selection and the song 'reveal'. The Italy gamble was sustained and, at the time at least, for no apparent reason Cool
Report five leaves left May 29, 2011 12:55 PM BST
I'm convinced Italy becoming one of the big 5 and therefore agreeing to put plenty of cash in the pot to help the whole thing run, helped their vote one way or another.

He who pays the piper calls the tune.
Report bunnyman May 29, 2011 4:49 PM BST
I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just pointing out the difficulty.  Perhaps they only selected jury members with a penchant for jazz and at least one Italian grandparent.  Cool

(Bexley Italy went off at 220 - I bit long if people knew that they were gonna be favoured).
Report stu May 29, 2011 6:55 PM BST
I suppose the other alternative to a direct influence of them, is that the 'muso' sorts that were in juries were more likely to like Jazz?

I'm a little 50/50 on this debate, but I wouldn't rule out either side.
Report stu May 29, 2011 6:56 PM BST
...until we hear from a horses mouth (ie one of the jury members)
Report Henry VIII May 30, 2011 3:38 AM BST
I don't understand the problem believing jury instruction. They're paid (probably a lot) to spend a little time doing an easy pleasant job in a nice hotel in a new city, and if they want to be invited back they do as they're told.

It's how TV works.
Report bunnyman May 30, 2011 8:12 AM BST
if they want to be invited back they do as they're told.

Morning Henry. You're talking 43 countries with a wide range of agendas, cultures and attitudes.  Even if 99% of people can be bought off with a nice hotel room and a few euros in their bank, it only takes one person not playing ball and the whole thing comes crashing down. What happens when someone isn't invited back next year?  The UK jury is different every year. 

As a betting man I always look at the upside and the downside.  Upside - Italy is a few places further up the leader board than they would have been for one year, big deal.  Downside - ESC is rocked by the biggest scandal in its history and the people responsible would certainly have to stand down.  Would they take that risk?

The other thing that people are losing site of imo is the Slovakia's, Netherlands and Estonias of this world who rarely qualify won't give a monkeys about how well Italy do, and when they get a directive suggesting they do this or that they might think "hold on a minute - this isn't a level playing field".  If you were part of the Swiss team that had just come last might you not be thinking, "no wonder we came bottom, Italy got our points"?
Report stu May 30, 2011 11:49 AM BST
I don't think it would be such a catastrophe if it was more subtle,as suggested earlier, I'd say Bunnyman. No one would need to leak out or have anything to leak out, if these were just subtle nudges.
Report bunnyman May 30, 2011 1:47 PM BST
How would you physically deliver a subtle message to 258 people though stu?  Send them all an email?  Put something in writing in the instructions pack?  Ring them all up individually?  Brief the head of each jury and ask him to deliver the message to the other members?  As much as I would love a nice neat explanation to Italy's jury score I can't see how it would be done in a way which was direct enough to have any impact, but subtle enough to avoid a scandal.
Report stu May 30, 2011 5:31 PM BST
So, would you go with my earlier explanation that these juries somehow were all coincidentally filled with Jazz lovers?
Report Henry VIII May 30, 2011 11:35 PM BST
Brief the head of each jury and ask him to deliver the message to the other members?

That's probably the way. Italy is one of the 5 or 6 who pay for ESC so it's in everybody's interest that they stick around including us viewers. The ESC management having to budget a huge show each year and anyone who gets paid from that budget have ample motivation to give Italy a little help.

As for scandal - there are more important conspiracies and they all share: nobody speaks, and if somebody speaks nobody reports, and if somebody reports nobody listens, and if somebody listens nobody cares. Bleak imo but the way of things when we are all fat and "happy".
Report johnnyrant May 31, 2011 10:21 AM BST
Cracking new tune from Manga. You look at these guys compared to Yukset Sadakac or whatever their name was, and the difference is monumental. Manga really were stunning e/w value in 2010:
http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=EiL9R5HiUBM&feature=player_embedded
Report honestcl May 31, 2011 9:46 PM BST
Anyone considered the possibility that a few jury members worked out that with odds of 250/1 it would be worthwhile to try and convenince a few folks that they could vote for Italy and then help themselves to the fat odds as way of payment. 

How many of the 258 jurists would it take to swing it so that Italy won, or certainly had a decent chance?  Italy represented about 2.3% of the countries taking part (1 of 43) but maybe just 25-30 jury members (about 10%) spread across certain countries could be enough to push Italy to the top of various countries' points allocation creating enough influence to force a win and voila you have a great coup, made even better by the natural cover up of the fact the odds climbed back to big levels well before the contest started.
Report bunnyman June 1, 2011 10:30 AM BST
Henry there doesn't seem to be a massive code of silence as there have been rumours about x country approaching y country offering to swop jury votes. In such a jealous and political environment I don't see how they could trust so many people with a conspiracy like this especially when by its nature its favouring one country and thereby handicapping others. I might be wrong but I think you're overplaying the importance that some of these countries put on ESC, the way that so many countries withdraw or permanently seem on the edge of withdrawal doesn't suggest they value it and its future as much as they might.

stu, I like the idea that they have picked lots of jazz fans, but that theory has a couple of problems.  Firstly each country pciks its own jury, which means you're back to a directive from TPTB to 58 countries 'pick jazz fans guys' which I really struggle with.  Also would jazz fans even appreciate this song? Is it a good example of the genre?  I don't know but apparently opera fans were scornful of the French entry (and that was before he started singing).

honestcl.  I find the idea of a group of jury members inviting other carefully selected jury members from other countries into a very tight clique to try and pull off something like this far more believable than a top down conspiracy.  These individuals have much less to fear from exposure and as they will have been carefully screened and sworn to secrecy before being invited into the inner circle there would be much less likelihood of one of them blabbing, especially as in doing so they would be implicating themselves.  Whether they could get enough people involved on this basis to make a difference I'm not sure but I wouldn't totally discount it.
Report stu June 1, 2011 11:13 AM BST
Bunny - but there only really seems to be two explanations, either they were given a nudge or they all loved the Jazz (to get such a massive score).

I think also what you're missing about the conspiracy explanation is that this would have been a 'nice' conspiracy (if there's such a thing) - just a friendly welcome back, not exactly anyone is going to go running to the rooftops to scream about, just a nice little bit of esc politics.
Report stu June 1, 2011 11:23 AM BST
...and the 'getting together jazz lovers' explanation looks slightly more tricky/obvious than other ways of nudging the votes surely?
Report stu June 1, 2011 11:51 AM BST
Sorry, misread what you said before, as you agree on that one.
Report bunnyman June 1, 2011 11:55 AM BST
stu, yes as I say the jazz fans explanation has problems. Fair point about it being a 'nice' conspiracy, you're right people would be more tolerant of something like that, but thats not to say you can rely on the co-operation of 258 people, and I don't believe they would risk it. 

Maybe what we are looking at is 4 or 5 people close to the heart of ESC who each know 3 or 4 jurors who they can safely recruit, and who in turn might be able to safely and discreetly recruit another 1 or 2. If such a thing did happen I suspect it was to keep Italy off the bottom, no more but it did far better than anyone expected.
Report stu June 1, 2011 11:10 PM BST
Yes, I agree on that as a big possibility - sort of: "let's make sure they have a few nice votes, we don't want them coming bottom again....oh sh!t they're going to win the flaming thing!" Laugh
Report bunnyman June 1, 2011 11:29 PM BST
Laugh
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