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pandora1963
05 Apr 23 18:56
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Date Joined: 28 Aug 07
| Topic/replies: 21,254 | Blogger: pandora1963's blog
To me she seems the only lady player to be able to play under any type of pressure without folding like a pack of cards. Unlikely she will win tonight but still think the price is too big, particularly because Holt is not the strongest under pressure either.
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Report stu April 7, 2023 12:23 PM BST
She played, and maybe plays, an odd game IMO.

Good, and very good at times, giving up easy chances to opponents at others. I'm sure she's not alone in doing that, but it cost her ultimately against Holt.
Report stu April 7, 2023 12:27 PM BST
Must admit I watched a fair bit of the game and she was first female I can remember that impressed me - but then I look and see she got knocked out in R2 of the women's world champs...Plain
Report Latalomne April 7, 2023 1:33 PM BST
Stu - she FAR outscored how she normally does v Holty.  Prior to that match she was making a 50+ break once ever 13.33 frames this season.  She made 5 in 18 frames against Holty.

That's generally where all of the women fall down; none of them score well enough when they get their chances.
Report stu April 7, 2023 3:08 PM BST
yep that's a good analysis.
Report thegiggilo April 7, 2023 7:40 PM BST
She wouldn't win a sunday pro am,i used to go in them every month i don't think people realize how poor some of these players are these pro ams everyone was knocking on tons for fun that was back in the early 90s..The standard has been woeful in these qualifiers,you used to turn up on a sunday sit around for two hours sometimes before you got to play and could draw Nigel Bond,Dave Harold,Barry pinches etc etc  and get stuffed 3-0 within 45 minutes and have two or three tons stuffed up ya..
Report jed.davison April 13, 2023 9:48 AM BST
With respect giggolo, people make tons in pro-ams all the time because they might win a bag of sand if they're lucky or lose a bullseye.

I just think it's very harsh to criticise these girls - they are simply not ready at the moment. For all that they have been the beneficiaries of a process designed to include them, it has exposed them to a level of competition beyond their abilities and a level of pressure beyond their experience. I've said before that I am 100% behind the decision to give them the wildcards - I would go further and guarantee each girl chosen a five-year exemption.
Report gjohn101 April 13, 2023 11:00 AM BST
I'm with you jed. Some people don't approve but i think 2 spots per year is reasonable, it's a long term thing but you've got to start somewhere and each generation will be better than the one before, that's how it works. You have to give them the opportunities. There's a young Chinese kid called Bai Yulu who i think will break through next couple of years and could be a step up on what we've seen, need time though but that pretty much goes for the young male players too!
Report jed.davison April 13, 2023 11:08 AM BST
Bai Yulu's been doing well this week, haven't seen any results from that comp in the last day or so.

It's such a great thing for the game too, snooker should make more of the fact that women and men will ultimately compete on equal terms.

As I always say though, a girl will come along to render these arguments obsolete.
Report gjohn101 April 13, 2023 11:57 AM BST
Yeah, it's like you go back 20 years on the racing forum, you'll hear fellas going "women will never be as strong in a finish" etc, but i never believed that was ever the case and equally i don't see any physiological or practical reasons why women can't compete on equal terms with men on a snooker table. The barriers are purely social and the evolution will be slower than racing i think, it's hard enough getting young male players into the sport as it is! All imho of course.
Report thegiggilo April 13, 2023 12:47 PM BST
The women in racing improved dramatically in a very shot period of time and in other countries have been as good as the men for years,i'm on their side it just seems strange how women are exactly in the same position at pool as well as snooker,the best players now are no better than Sue Thompson and Linda Leadbetter were 25 years ago..It looks like their scoring is gradually improving,but all the female players seem to be clones of academies where are the naturally gifted players they just seem to be a conveyor belt of clones playing the exact same game.
Report jed.davison April 13, 2023 12:47 PM BST
Having been deprived of my biggest punting payday ever by the strength and ability of Bridget Andrews less than a month ago, I know what you mean.
Report gjohn101 April 13, 2023 1:12 PM BST
Andrews was lucky I think in that she always had the backing of a good stable behind her so got her opportunities and took them. That's what they need. Remember visiting an apprentice school in mid 90s and one of first things that stood out was it was as close to a 50-50 male-female split as made no difference. So the numbers were there, it was just a question of getting opportunities, overcoming existing prejudices and that took another 10-15 years.

Don't really know much about pool tbh, I think it's a numbers game whatever way you look at it. Getting enough kids involved, identifying the good ones and nurturing them. Same as any sport.
Report stu April 13, 2023 4:46 PM BST
IMHO racing jockeys show that it isn't really a true sport in comparison to other sports - they rely far too much on whatever rides they get given. AP McCoy would have had 0 winners if he'd been only given the rags in races.

Snooker is interesting because it's less strength than skill, similar profile to darts. Both seem to have seen women get to similar levels, decent but not anywhere near the top, so far...
Report stu April 13, 2023 4:53 PM BST
I once asked a statistician who was big on racing what % he thought the jockey was worth on average - he reckoned about 5% max. I personally think it's even lower than that.
The difference in snooker and darts is at least it's 100% the player themselves alone.
Report peckerdunne April 13, 2023 8:50 PM BST
AP McCoy would have had 0 winners if he'd been only given the rags in races.

I doubt that very much.

As for the 5%, well that's plenty in hand at the top level in sport.

The transformation with female jockeys came through fitness and conditioning, that's just fact.

The female snooker players, I've yet to see one who had shots, who looked a natural.

I'll be waiting along time too, strength and conditioning won't make the difference there.

In the next 15 years no women will make the top 16 and that's being kind.

Maybe some Chinese girl might come along.

With snooker, you need absolute focus.
Report peckerdunne April 13, 2023 8:55 PM BST
As for Sunday pro ams, Giggsy made me laugh, had the same experience many times, wait two hours for match, get buzzed up, then get murdered 3-0 in no time, always left thinking, who the feck was that...And no not as good as Giggsy, I did some 50 60s but no tons.
Report gjohn101 April 13, 2023 9:37 PM BST
Not gonna disagree there peck, but you've missed out prejudice, that was biggest barrier female jockeys had to overcome imo. I never meant to draw any direct analogy between that and snooker players anyway, just summat that cropped into my head earlier.

Don't think anyone is saying a female player is going to break through anytime soon. The first step is someone who can just retain tour card, from bits I've seen Bai Yulu might have the game to do it. Chinese have advantage as they get some state help when they relocate to uk, lot harder for other nationals to settle and develop i suspect.
Report thegiggilo April 13, 2023 10:20 PM BST
I've beaten Barry Pinches 3-1 lost to Dave Harold 3-1 too nervous,there were players like Troy Shaw not even sure he turned pro he had two tons and an 80 against me that was over 30 years ago Anthony Harris i don't think he turned pro either he was unreal he'd whistle while banging in tons best amateur i've ever seen,people are kidding themselves if they think the standard was weaker back then in the amateur pro ams..The standard was ridiculous and the tables were abysmal,you play in the snooker halls like Darleston and the other **** holes in the midlands back then the tables were like playing on grass..
Report thegiggilo April 13, 2023 10:24 PM BST
That''s the sort of amateur scene that needs t exist now,every sinday pro ams don't think they eve exist anymore probably in London but pool has taken over in a big way,it's going to be massive now with the rules they use and the players are so talented,you've git Mark Allen,Tom Ford playing Selby i'm sure will go back to it has already been playing doubles...Mark Allen and Tom Ford they've been hammered when taking on the bst players,unless you watch it you don't appreciate how skilful agame it is..Gareth Potts had 20 consecutive dishes,it's just mindblowing..
Report jed.davison April 14, 2023 9:02 AM BST
Was talking to one of my former pupils yesterday funny enough gigolo, truly brilliant snooker player but now starting to concentrate on pool because that's where the money is.

Re: your point about the amateur game, the standard was immense, I used to play around the London area and every club you went in there were proper players, and there were plenty of clubs.

Friend of mine used to be Pinches' manager, he's still performing to a decent standard to be fair to Barry.
Report jed.davison April 14, 2023 9:05 AM BST
I think it's one of the biggest myths in snooker, if not the biggest, that today's players are better than the old-timers of the 60s and 70s. It's an outright insult imo.

Give Reardon two weeks to practise on a Star, nobody but nobody beats him. Introduce Mark Allen to the conditions prevalent in that era, he breaks out in hives.
Report gjohn101 April 14, 2023 9:38 AM BST
I've listened to ken and fergal, among others, talking about those days, late 80s/early 90s and how the pro ams gave them a proper grounding for tour life. Ebdon i think used to host regular outings in kings cross where he spent his days trying to keep up around the table with Drago! There are still plenty of pro ams going but doubt it'll ever be the same as it was, remember Ken saying opening up the pro ranks in 1992 almost killed off the amateur game at a single stroke and not sure it ever fully recovered.
Report jed.davison April 14, 2023 9:50 AM BST
Gentleman, there was a tournament in the club in Tottenham High Road, Bruce Grove, above MacDonalds, graveyard, midnightish start, Fridays, handicapped and run by a black dude called Vinny, sharp as a razor.

Ebdon and another pro called Nicky Pearce, good looking boy, still models now I believe, played down at the Professionals club at the Holloway end of the Seven Sisters Road, they'd come in those comps before Ebdon turned pro, he was a mentalist tbf.

There was a comp every night of the week in that area, I made a right nice living out of them for a couple of years when I first moved up to London from the sticks. 8ball, 9ball, snooker, some brilliant kaluki and poker schools, I basically lived in a club near the one above for about three years.
Report jed.davison April 14, 2023 9:53 AM BST
I could get to twenty snooker clubs within ten minutes on the bus from Tottenham, not one of them survives.
Report gjohn101 April 14, 2023 10:21 AM BST
Incredible stuff Jed. In my neck of woods, Dublin, i think we're not far off reaching point you could count total number of clubs on finger of one hand. Seems that way anyway. I don't see any hope for future unless ruling bodies step in and start opening clubs, private sector ain't gonna do it. I think you still have the working men's clubs in the UK which does help but not sure they can be relied on either. It's grim all round i believe.
Report jed.davison April 14, 2023 10:47 AM BST
I've played two games well in my life - cricket and snooker. Both are dying in England. Where I live, a cricket League that had 100 teams in it five years ago now barely has 50.

I don't know what the answers are for snooker - having done all the hours, days, weeks, months and years that you have to do, you can see why so many lose heart, or interest, or patience. Boys discover girls and drink and drugs, that's done for so many talented players I've known, and if I'm honest with myself, me too.
Report gjohn101 April 14, 2023 11:17 AM BST
Yeah, its not an easy one for sure. Only a very casual cricket fan but the last time i remember getting really excited by a match was an Ashes test a few years back, Stuart Broad and some kid manning the barricades for 20-30 overs to force a draw on Day 5. It was truly epic. The 20 over stuff hasn't grabbed me at all though i suspect it could be decent for betting purposes if you knew what you were doing.
Report Latalomne April 14, 2023 1:50 PM BST
My only concern with the ladies is that it becomes self-defeating.  While gaining experience might be useful, getting humped every time you play is a negative experience and is counterproductive.

There were 153 players who had featured in ranking events (exc. CLR) prior to the WC Qs, and if we rank those players in order based upon how many frames it takes them to make a 50 break, #1 being the fewest number of frames, we have Ng at #145, Reanne at #148, Mink at #152 and Kenna at #153.  Collectively they've won 4 matches out of 60 in 2 years (exc. CLR), with Ng being responsible for 3 of them.

I can think of occasions where both Ng and Reanne have looked like they wanted to be anywhere else (granted, you could say the same about some of the blokes!).  Mink, to her credit, does always seem to play with a smile on her face.

Would they not be better off building experience on the Q tour, given that this is clearly too big a jump for them?
Report stu April 14, 2023 2:09 PM BST
AP McCoy would have had 0 winners if he'd been only given the rags in races.

I doubt that very much.


There's plenty rides in horse racing where it is almost impossible to ride a winner, so it could be 0 or very close to it, for the greatest ever jump jockey in that scenario.

The point I was making is that it's why women can compete almost evenly against men in horse racing, because just as often they are given the advantage of the animal under them. It's why I don't consider it a true sport, because it doesn't rely on the individual sportsperson.
Report jed.davison April 14, 2023 3:35 PM BST
With respect stu, most apprentices and conditionals start by riding the unreliable, untrustworthy, badly handicapped, out of form horses, and it is how they perform aboard those beasts that determines their future path.

And they don't just stick people who haven't ridden before on horses and see how they get on - they don't get rides unless they work hard and have potential.
Report gjohn101 April 14, 2023 3:48 PM BST
The reason females can compete with males in horse racing is because, contrary to now dispelled and long held myths, it has very little to do with physical strength and mostly about technique, balance, composure, tactical race reading etc.

Like racing, snooker isn't dependent on physical force either or else a scrawny git like judd wouldn't be able to generate as much power as arguably any player in history. I can only think of one physical disadvantage women might face and that is size, but anyone over at least 5'5 or 5'6" i think shouldn't be unduly inconvenienced in any way. This is the only relevant comparison i was trying to draw when i made the original comment.
Report jed.davison April 14, 2023 3:54 PM BST
Short people are invariably good with the rest (NAP)
Report gjohn101 April 14, 2023 4:09 PM BST
[u]Latalomne 14 Apr 23 13:50 
My only concern with the ladies is that it becomes self-defeating.  While gaining experience might be useful, getting humped every time you play is a negative experience and is counterproductive.

There were 153 players who had featured in ranking events (exc. CLR) prior to the WC Qs, and if we rank those players in order based upon how many frames it takes them to make a 50 break, #1 being the fewest number of frames, we have Ng at #145, Reanne at #148, Mink at #152 and Kenna at #153.  Collectively they've won 4 matches out of 60 in 2 years (exc. CLR), with Ng being responsible for 3 of them.

I can think of occasions where both Ng and Reanne have looked like they wanted to be anywhere else (granted, you could say the same about some of the blokes!).  Mink, to her credit, does always seem to play with a smile on her face.

Would they not be better off building experience on the Q tour, given that this is clearly too big a jump for them?


I think this goes back to something we've mentioned here a few times - the lack of a really proper, well run secondary tour.  I don't think the Q Tour, as currently established, is up to the mark, otherwise I wouldn't strongly object to this. Thing is they could easily upgrade the Q Tour by downgrading Q School and giving more places to the tour instead, but they won't do this because School is too much of a handy earner for them and much more practical to organise.
Report stu April 14, 2023 6:18 PM BST
jed - obviously there is some minumum level of ability someone needs to show, even in being a jockey, but I don't think that bar is very high at all. There's enough moderate riders doing it to prove that.

I do tend to rate some jockeys differently, but mostly only those who I might consider especially 'negative' jockeys, I never really care about rating a jockey especially 'good' because I don't believe it's worth it for the difference they make. There are some I might avoid backing, but all the others go into the pile of 'a jockey' as I honestly don't think analysing them is at all worth enough.
Report Latalomne April 15, 2023 10:06 AM BST
I think this goes back to something we've mentioned here a few times - the lack of a really proper, well run secondary tour.  I don't think the Q Tour, as currently established, is up to the mark, otherwise I wouldn't strongly object to this. Thing is they could easily upgrade the Q Tour by downgrading Q School and giving more places to the tour instead, but they won't do this because School is too much of a handy earner for them and much more practical to organise.

Indeed, mate.  We do seem to keep coming back to the pathway not being right....
Report gjohn101 April 15, 2023 10:43 AM BST
That we do lats! The importance of a secondary tour to develop and nurture players is unarguable though. Si Jiahui last season is a great example of it, you could see him building confidence all year and now, first season back on main tour, he's playing at the crucible.
Report stu April 15, 2023 12:25 PM BST
For the female snooker players, it's like most sports that females might compete in - it's not about silly stuff like prejudice, let's face it the prejudice in this current world would most likely be the opposite direction, supporting women.

The key differences are a mixture - there may be an element of basic male/female differences in areas such as visual spatial processing. Millions of years of evolution does have some effect, and men have been created (through environment etc) to be slightly different in these aspects.

Add into that, if we want to consider any 'prejudice' in attitude it is mostly from women themselves - how many women openly wear a badge of 'I hate sport it's all boring' - a lot more than men who do. They self-select to be a far smaller sample as a basic fact, those women who would take sport seriously. That means there is far less likelihood of a woman world champion in sport generally.
Report gjohn101 April 15, 2023 2:47 PM BST
There are actually snooker clubs in the uk that don't allow women or girls to play, or there were up to a couple of years ago at least and I'm assuming that still to be the case. But on second thoughts it might just be that, unlike their male brethern, females over millions of years have just not yet developed the visual spatial processing skills to locate those particular clubs. I hadn't considered that tbh
Report Latalomne April 15, 2023 3:34 PM BST
LaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh
Report stu April 15, 2023 3:59 PM BST
Laugh yeh reckon they could manage to find the places, even so.

Amazed that level of gender banning stuff is still allowed in our current women's lib world we all live in - though guess snooker might be one of the last to fall if so, as a stuffy old men's sport to some degree.
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