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gobelins
20 Nov 18 19:56
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Date Joined: 30 Aug 04
| Topic/replies: 836 | Blogger: gobelins's blog
A whole 8 days without snooker, but at least we've got a pre-Christmas stint of JV to look forward to. The UK may not be the massive event it once was, but it remains the 3rd biggest event on the calendar and it comes at a time when we may be seeing the re-emergence of J.Trump as a frequent title winner. It seems strange that his capture of The N.Ireland Open is being seen as a direct result of an increase in his time spent practicing, as the current schedule doesn't appear to allow for it. That said, it does seem to have been a factor in J.Lisowsk"s rise up the rankings, so maybe it has rubbed off on Trump and he's been knuckling down. Whether this title is the start of a full Trump resurgence, or whether it was simply his turn, remains to be seen, and we should have a better idea in a few weeks' time. Something similar also applies to M.Allen who played to a career-best level a few weeks ago, and it will be interesting to see whether that was the exception rather than the new norm for him, given how inconsistent he is. With usual suspects R.O'Sullivan, M.Selby, J.Higgins and M.Williams likely to be big players here, and improved form from one or two of the players with question marks currently surrounding them - Ding, K.Wilson, Robbo, S.Murphy and B.Hawkins - likely to happen, we could be in for a cracking tournament.

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Replies: 71
By:
trebor
When: 20 Nov 18 20:19
Trump's win is probably more down to Kyren's comments than the practice, same as Ricky Fowler winning a tournament after news article comments on what an under achiever he was.
By:
gobelins
When: 20 Nov 18 20:35
I can understand how Wilson's dig at him would have motivated Trump, but that suggests he was lacking motivation beforehand. Wilson's comments were made just a couple of days before the tournament in N.Ireland started, and it's a huge indictment on Trump's whole attitude, if that was the sole/main reason for his improved form and attitude.
By:
trebor
When: 20 Nov 18 20:42
I think Wilsons comments where made because he knows far more about Trumps dedication than we do, I am sure Judd thinks he is motivated but if you can double your practice time just like that then you where not working hard enough in the first place. and as you said he has not really had too much chance to practice lately I would imagine with the run of tournaments.
Trump needs to really get down to some serious practice after the world championships and sort his cue action out, not have jimmy telling him how well he is cuing in mistake for a bit of form imo.
By:
gobelins
When: 20 Nov 18 21:01
Trump remains the most frustrating player around these days, and he gets plenty of stick on here because everyone sees how much talent he has. His practice sessions have been discussed on here numerous times and I'm sure you're right about Wilson knowing far more about it. When Wilson made those comments I think he did it to rile Trump, and touch a nerve, as he knew he'd leave a marker for future meetings. Trump can definitely be 'got at' and it is one of several weaknesses that remain in his game. He still has a fair way to go to get to the very top, but last week was a reminder of just how good he can be. Whether he can build on it remains to be seen.
By:
appformat
When: 20 Nov 18 21:01
looking at those first round matches their looks to be some real banana skins for the top ranked players..
By:
trebor
When: 20 Nov 18 21:41
I am probably a bit tuff on Judd, but I watched  him play almost on a weekly basis from the age of 8 to about 16 and feel he is really letting an opportunity slip. During this time he had a good practice partner in Andrew Norman who played the game in a Steve Davis style, Andrew was a few years older than Judd and a good practice partner for him to aim at, Andrew won the English under 17 and under 21 titles as well as finishing runner up in the English Amateur.

During these years Judd played a really tight game and showed tremendous patience, he would give more respect to an opponent receiving a start off of him than he does to most pro's now, this seemed to change dramatically when he left Bristol and headed to London, it seems the reputation of being able to pot everything overtook the importance of winning the matches. it is probably very difficult to keep a level head when everyone is telling you it is just a matter of time before you dominate the snooker world.
By:
gobelins
When: 20 Nov 18 22:36
Yes, some good points there trebor - I remember going to the final round of World qualifiers about 10 years ago, and Trump was playing S.Lee for a place at The Crucible. There was a big crowd watching the 2nd session, as it was considered a bit of a Derby, and there had been a few comments exchanged pre-match with Lee stating he wanted to put Trump in his place. Trump led for most of the match but with the game under control he started playing to the crowd and he started taking liberties. A visibly pumped-up Lee fought back, and with a large vocal support cheering every Trump mistake, he fought back and won 10-8. At the time I put it down to Trump's inexperience, but whenever I hear about, or see, Trump's "naughty snooker" I wonder if he even considers that he can be unnecessarily giving his opponent renewed motivation. He needs to remember that winning is more important than entertaining the crowd no matter what O'Sullivan says.
By:
gjohn101
When: 20 Nov 18 22:51
Interesting stuff guys. Will JV be doing the UK? If memory serves they dropped him last year, the forkin barstewards, and have a feeling it’s a permanent thing.

I was thinking “the tournament formerly known as the second major” would be a suitable new official title for the uk.
By:
gjohn101
When: 20 Nov 18 22:52
Was that in prestatyn gobe?
By:
gjohn101
When: 20 Nov 18 23:06
I assumed Wilson’s champion of champions comment didn’t just come out of the blue, more a product of a mini feud that is ongoing for some time. Remember after wilsons comeback win in the masters, trump was moaning afterwards about how lucky wilson had been which sounded like sour grapes. I suspect they just don’t particularly like each other as people, may even go back to their junior days perhaps as judd isn’t all that older.
By:
thegiggilo
When: 21 Nov 18 02:13
More of the same big bags,centurys ever other frame a potters delight very little safety,the trouble is now they can't go back to making the tables playing harder as it won't appeal to the fanboys watching,god forbid there would be some great safety and long frames interrupting the tons,plus how would they explain the sudden drop in break building...It's here for good,that's an absolute certainty..Shocked
By:
gobelins
When: 21 Nov 18 07:54
gj - don't tell me that about JV. I thought he was at The Crucible last April, but maybe not. JV and Angles are the only ones I can listen to on BBC these days. That match was at the English Institute of Sport in Sheffield. We used to go every year, and we've been thinking of going back this year. It's a better venue for watching than Ponds Forge although it can be noisy as it's massive with loads of sports halls. I think you're right about Wilson, and maybe it does go back further than The Masters. Long may it continue (from both players) - let's get more needle into some of these games.
By:
jed.davison
When: 21 Nov 18 09:06
For me, like every tournament will be while he is taking the game seriously, this is Trump's to lose.

There are still caveats for me with Trump - I am prepared, especially given last week's form, to take at face value his insistence that he is now practising with the diligence required of a top player. I believe that his self-belief took an almighty dent when he lost to Bingham in 2015 and that beating Ronnie in this final will go a very long way to restoring it. My worry is that for all these plus points there is still the danger that he might just turn it in half way through a match that is not going his way, but for me there is still enough value in his price to make him a justifiable bet.
By:
gjohn101
When: 21 Nov 18 09:39
JV was most definitely at the crucible last season and expect him back this one too. But they dropped him for uk I think, supposedly to give new blood a chance which if memory serves was the train wreck commentary of Peter Ebdon. I love Virgo, a simply top bloke as well as commentator and going to savour every world champs and masters he has left.

Am guessing that judd-lee match was 2010 as I know the world qualifiers were in prestatyn in 09 as I was there. Horrible venue early january but great fun all the same.

When you look at trumps hth records I find it interesting that he has done better against the likes of ronnie and selby than he has against wilson who he trails 3-6. On talent you’d expect him to be ahead or at the worst level, but seems there’s something else going on there and, yes, long may it continue. I exclude championship and all league matches from hth by the way as I see little relevance in them.
By:
jed.davison
When: 21 Nov 18 09:47
I made a resolution some time ago never to watch any match I could watch on Eurosport on the BBC, and if I had to watch the BBC to turn the volume down. I still fear that even a second's further exposure to Dennis Taylor will turn me into a mass murderer.
By:
gjohn101
When: 21 Nov 18 09:55
I’d always want to listen to Hendry over anyone but the bbc, possibly sensing this, have a very nasty habit of usually pairing him with Taylor. I still remember the time Dennis picked out some guy in the audience who was going into space and, after a long spiel, says excitedly, “what do you think of that stephen?” A solid 30 seconds of silence ensued.
By:
jed.davison
When: 21 Nov 18 10:10
It is somehow comforting that however desperate Joe Johnson might be, no part of my license fee goes towards his salary. I never watch any build-up or mid-session rubbish anyway, precious little time to eat and wash when there's a tournament on without wasting it listening to Goldstein ****ing over Ronnie.
By:
trebor
When: 21 Nov 18 10:34
Trump and Lee used to live within 20 miles of each other and think Lee didn't like all the attention Trump was recieving.

From Bath Chronicle:
Trump failed to qualify for the World Championship, losing 8–10 to Stephen Lee having led 6–3. Lee considered this match to be a local derby, as he is from nearby Trowbridge. He also noted that Trump had not followed the custom of apologising for fluked shots during the match, and concluded "all I've heard about for the last five years is how good he is. Today he blew a 6–3 lead and hopefully that will stick with him"
By:
jed.davison
When: 21 Nov 18 10:44
Won't stick with him as long as Lee blowing his entire career I would imagine.
By:
Blackrock
When: 21 Nov 18 11:20
Trumps safety has improved bigtime. He is playing the right shot more often than he used to. He's still a big headed so and so but his talent is incredible.

A high in confidence Judd will go close next week. I'm going for Mark Allen as his game is in high order.
By:
gjohn101
When: 21 Nov 18 11:38
I agree with that first par blackrock. In the final judds safety success wasn’t far off 90% which is seriously impressive, that’s up with ronnie and selby at their best. That’s a very encouraging sign though we’ll still have to expect the odd brainfart at pressure moments. I think you need a proper safety game more than ever on these quick tables and it may be for judd the message is finally getting home.
By:
jed.davison
When: 21 Nov 18 11:39
He's always had a brilliant safety game, just that he hardly ever used it.
By:
BornToWin
When: 21 Nov 18 19:03
I expect Judd to fail here, not exactly sticking my neck out at 1/8 or whatever.

Talking all satisfied with himself after NI, just another event on the conveyor belt.

He's won 8 or 9 ranking events, lets not mention it should be 28 or 29 in this era including 2 or 3 World titles.
By:
jed.davison
When: 21 Nov 18 19:26
Why should it? It takes different players different amounts of time to know what is required - in practise and in matches. He still has years ahead of him as the best player in the world, I can't see any youngsters coming through to threaten him.

We shall see though I guess.
By:
gobelins
When: 21 Nov 18 20:10
Ahhh I'd forgotten about the greatest being in the box for BBC. Let's hope he doesn't have to contend with Taylor's tedious ramblings too often this time around - at least we can mute him. Hendo and JV would be heaven, if the latest BBC hype merchant, Ebbo, hasn't ousted him.    There have been a couple of false dawns with J.Trump and I'd be wary of overstating the importance of his win in N.Ireland. In a way it's actually a compliment to him that his win over R.O'Sullivan isn't seen as having the same significance had, say, K.Wilson beaten him in the Champion of Champions final. Trump has always appeared to relish his matches against O'Sullivan and always sounds confident beforehand. If he can follow up his N.Ireland win with another win in the UK or Masters then maybe this could be his time, as he does still have time on his side, but that 'if' is, as always, a huge one.
By:
BornToWin
When: 21 Nov 18 20:48
I suppose I feel it should have been because history suggests the greats have a few in the bag before 30.

He is still too immature. He took plenty liberties in that final, only Ronnie takes more than anybody. It suited him.

This injection of confidence can see more liberties being taken, with a determined Journeyman Joe or some such doing for him in the next 6 events.
By:
gobelins
When: 22 Nov 18 07:18
Cheers Trevor for that newspaper report. I'd forgotten that Lee also accused Trump of not acknowledging his flukes. My main recollection of the match was Trump taking on a cut back yellow right handed rather than using the rest, when he could have stolen a frame late in the match (it might have been 7-6 at the time I'm not sure). It was a really strange choice of shot, but maybe the tension of the match got to him.
By:
gobelins
When: 22 Nov 18 07:19
*trebor - I'm on my phone, with auto correct!!
By:
trebor
When: 22 Nov 18 12:08
Judd has never really had a player younger than him as a challenger to his perceived up and coming dominance like Kyren, he says they are of a similar age but I guarantee Judd knows he is two years older than Kyren, but hopefully it will create a bit of motivation and more practice.
Am sure Judd stills sees himself as the new generation, but worth remembering that at his age Hendry had won 6 off his 7 World Championships, all of his 6 Masters and all 5 of his UK Championships.
By:
BornToWin
When: 22 Nov 18 16:54
Of course the landscape is changed trebor, with zero talent coming through. The aged are prospering like never before, with MJ Williams incredible victory the thus far pinnacle.

Perhaps Judd feels he can start mopping up whenever he likes.
By:
gobelins
When: 22 Nov 18 21:03
trebor - that's an interesting point you make, and I'd never considered J.Trump's thinking regarding K.Wilson being a potential younger threat to the top of the game, when the current 40+ crop are finally toppled (which may still be 2-3 years away). And, maybe the perceived twin threat of Wilson, who he dislikes, and to a lesser extent J.Lisowski who he is best mates with, have combined to focus his mind a lot more. And, although we are only speculating on all of this as he won in N.Ireland, we also know he is one of the few players capable of competing with, and beating, R.O'Sullivan, J.Higgins and M.Selby on a regular basis.

While I take your point about Trump still seeing himself as the new generation, he is probably entitled to given how the longevity of O'Sullivan, Higgins and Williams have altered the current thinking about when a player reaches his prime, and for how long they can play to a high level. Also, as has already been stated on this thread and elsewhere - there doesn't appear to be many of the younger players likely to consistently challenge for titles for quite a while yet.
By:
thegiggilo
When: 23 Nov 18 01:02
Desperation stakes trying to create a fake rivalry between two numbskulls like wilson and trump,not exactly alex higgins v Davis is it,laughable anything to try and hype the sport...No need for over analysing trump,the games so easy now under current conditions they are playing to his main attributes and obviously he will win more tournaments,probably a handful of worlds as well..
By:
gjohn101
When: 23 Nov 18 01:29
Alex v davis was some rivalry alright, 4-21 the hth was or something like that. Take away a couple of months either side of 83-84 and alex was as well off not turning up.
By:
gobelins
When: 23 Nov 18 07:39
giggilo - current playing conditions have not seen Trump win lots of tournaments or a handful of World Championships so far, so there must be reasons why. This thread has become about Trump, given that the old guard can't go on indefinitely, and based on his undoubted talent and on his recent N.Ireland win - he is the player most likely to be at the top of the game when the 40 something's finally deteriorate. On this, and many other threads we've discussed current flaws in Trump's game which might stop him, and Wilson is possibly a threat to him, who is younger not older than him. It's all speculation, but Trump's mindset will be an important factor going forward, if he is to go to the top of the game, and K.Wilson may (or may not) be someone who affects it.
By:
thegiggilo
When: 23 Nov 18 09:17
Probably won't have to play well to get to the top of the game that's the point,wilsons even worse so over rated yet he's going to pick up a shedful as well the pthers are so poor..Tournaments are going to fall into their laps withoput even having to play well//
Davis and higgins the only proper rivalry in the game that has ever existed,everyone knew alex could beat davis on his day,mostly never turned up and his coral win for proper snooker fans will be as remembered more than davis winning his six worlds one of the greatest comebackls of all time,bland as bland can be..,i remember sitting listening to the radio updates as he crawled his way back into it and shouting c/mon running around my bedrooom..I couldn't give two **** what happens with wilson and trump two snowflakes
By:
gjohn101
When: 23 Nov 18 11:12
Watched every shot of the 83 uk final, cried at the end of it, leaves the 85 final for dead but let’s face it, if trump or anyone wants lessons on underachieving they need look no further than alex. Two world titles? Should have been 3 minimum in the 70s alone. Lost one year to a near 60 year old. Remember reading in one of the books, think it was dracula, saying how they were always happy to draw alex because he always gave them loads of chances.
Check the record, he’s 5-25 against davis in their “rivalry”, but hey, alex could have gone 30-0 if only he’d bothered to turn up. Yeah sure.
I remember davis saying that the partisan nature of the support actually helped him more than alex and I think he has a point on that.
By:
thegiggilo
When: 23 Nov 18 11:39
Everyone knew Alex was going to disappoint on most days,that was the excitement you knew he was p1ssed but were preying he wouldn't be,he was one of the most talented players to pick up a cue,underachiever but no one cared they loved him and still do will live long in the memorys well after trump and wilson retire and you can guarantee his name will still be mentioned even in a 100 years and that 69 break will still be played.It wss the whole package not just winning tournaments,these players can win as many as they like higgins won't be forgotten they will..
By:
trebor
When: 23 Nov 18 11:56
Alex Higgins, Jimmy White, Ronnie O'Sullivan and now Judd Trump, all say they want to entertain, and all win less than they should have done, yet experts like Hendry and Thorne are all for going for killing the frame off in one visit, that's Thorne who won one tournament in his career, and Hendry who found the attacking game is not so easy to play if you are not getting the pots.

The Higgins, Davis rivalry was more of a rivalry made up by the press and Higgins, and his fans, as a Davis supporter it was just another match on the way to the title.

GJ..  3 titles in the 70's?  despite being in his prime he won one, lost twice in the 1st round, once in the 2nd round and got beat by 44,61,46,and 47 year olds in the other years, but you have told me before you are a Higgins fan so like your optimism.

thegiggilo.. yes Higgins was talented but so unbelievably overrated by his followers, I for one tend to remember the other side of Alex.
By:
thegiggilo
When: 23 Nov 18 12:03
Higgins couldv'e won 10 world titles how was he ever going to win being conatantly p1ssed,if it wasn't for higgins there would never have been a modern game he put the bums on seats even if he did waste his talent..
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