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trebor
09 Nov 18 17:42
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Date Joined: 17 Aug 01
| Topic/replies: 1,531 | Blogger: trebor's blog
I posted on another thread that I thought that to give more experience and closer matches the tour would benefit if it had 64 on the main tour and a 2nd division tour for the lower ranked players, very much like tennis and golf, I felt it would help the lower ranked players to play more matches and against more equally skilled players and help to bring along their game.

This of course should also benefit the higher ranked players as they would also be playing more competitive opponents, not until I checked did I realise how much more competitive it could be. There have been 7 ranking events so far this season, (Invitational events not included) in these tournaments top 16 players have been involved in 298 matches so far, yet only 8 of those matches has been between 2 top 16 ranked players.  Seven of the top 16 are yet to face another top 16 opponent yet this season.

Who have you got to beat to win a ranking event this season? Neil Robertson, Mark Williams and Kyren Wilson won theirs without facing a top 16 opponent, while Mark Selby, Mark Allen, Jimmy Robertson and Stuart Bingham had the tougher test of beating one each.

So, if after 7 events there has been so few top of the rankings match ups maybe it is hardly surprising that the standard seems to be slipping, or playing devil’s advocate is it that these lower ranked players never received the memo about how bad their supposed to be?
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Report gjohn101 November 9, 2018 6:16 PM GMT
Major issue as I see it is they have put in an ambitious structure that the standard of the sport simply cannot support and won’t for many years to come. I’d say most on here were adamantly opposed to the flat 128 draw system and said so at the time. The quality isn’t there for a 128 tour and neither are the facilities or revenue. The mediocrity of the whole thing, on and off the table, is dragging it down. Far from the rising tide lifting all boats dream scenario, the reality is the system is dragging those at the top down the other direction.

Bit of a doom scenario but I’m not convinced the sport is moving forward under the current structure. Unless some radical changes are made they will just continue to damage it more and more. Imo anyway.
Report gobelins November 9, 2018 7:04 PM GMT
Some interesting points there Trebor - and certainly some food for thought. I'm sure the current Hearn regime didn't envisage seeing stats like that, although he would probably say there are now numerous small event fields for the top players. I'm not against 128 players on the tour, even accepting that as gj says - a lot of the really lower ranked players aren't good enough, but I am against having 128 players at a venue for so many reasons - the most important one, is that you then have to play Best-Of-7 frame matches in order to cram all the matches in, and that is surely not the point of professional sport.

For me, the big problem with just 64 players on the main tour is determining how many players are promoted or relegated? The number would have to be massively reduced from the current number. At the moment several amateur champions gain entry onto the tour and 12 players make it via Q school - which is a really good innovation as it allows anyone (including ex-pro's) a fair opportunity to join/re-join the tour.

The idea of making more competitive games for the lower ranked players could be addressed by allowing the top 32 to join a tournament at the L64 stage, with the other 96 pro's play for the other 32 places in the tournament.
Report trebor November 9, 2018 7:08 PM GMT
Yes I agree 128 is too many at present, as I say something like 64 with the 2nd division/feeder rankings and also a circuit in China is needed, I have no idea what they can compete in over there other than a handful of tournaments, otherwise the talent from there has nowhere to progress.

64 rather than 128 helps with overcrowding at venues, and surely the revenue/structure is better than it was in the past. Not sure what the mediocrity issue is, and far from dragging the top players down it is up to them to grab the opportunity, not choose to be dragged down, maybe some just think they need to turn up to beat a lowly ranked player but with so few seeds getting through to last 16 it would seem not. If I was a player looking for a career in snooker I would see real opportunity now, not as it was 15 / 20 years or so back when it was a closed shop, a lot of players gave up back then mostley for the reasons you quoted abve gj.

But not so many playing the game now, thats why they need to nurture China carefully imo.
Report trebor November 9, 2018 7:16 PM GMT
The idea of making more competitive games for the lower ranked players could be addressed by allowing the top 32 to join a tournament at the L64 stage, with the other 96 pro's play for the other 32 places in the tournament.

I agree that makes sense, just I feel it is unfair for one player to have to play so many more games to win a tournament than a top player, but maybe I am being overoptimistic that a new player really expects to come through all those games, let alone win it.


But maybe a player would prefer that to being relegated?
Report wondersobright November 9, 2018 7:18 PM GMT
The idea of making more competitive games for the lower ranked players could be addressed by allowing the top 32 to join a tournament at the L64 stage, with the other 96 pro's play for the other 32 places in the tournament

hearn will never go for that, he has banged the drum for a level playing field for years, he isn't going to about turn
Report gjohn101 November 9, 2018 7:22 PM GMT
I agree with those suggestions, they make sense to me. I said before I don’t have any magic formula, but I think anything to streamline the tour and increase the attractiveness to the public is a good thing. If in, say, 10-15 years there’s been a notable increase in numbers and quality then you start expanding. Seems to me they have done it the wrong way round.

Kind of redundant this discussion though because we all know little will ever change. An end to bo7, the uk restored as a great tournament. That needs to happen if they’re serious about the health of the sport.
Report gjohn101 November 9, 2018 7:25 PM GMT
Yes wonders, I was typing when you posted that but more or less my point. Not going to change because that would be admitting mistakes. Just ain’t gonna happen.
Report gobelins November 9, 2018 7:33 PM GMT
Hearn has banged the level playing field drum for years, and part of me thinks 'fair enough'. But, having 128 players at a venue means that you have to put quantity above quality. In order to make sure that accusation isn't levelled against him, the playing conditions are made easier, and so we get more maximums, more centuries etc, and therefore he can point to these misleading stats to claim that the standard is rising. We're all more or less in the same camp on this - let's just hope he never tampers with The World Championship format or venue.
Report trebor November 9, 2018 7:43 PM GMT
Good explanation gogelins, I wonder how much Hearn has to do with table conditions at a venue?
Report gjohn101 November 9, 2018 8:00 PM GMT
100% believe that conditions are being manipulated to facilitate more open and faster games which, among other things, pleases the tv crowd. Also helps sustain the rising standards myth which, I assume, is a hopeful selling point when it comes to sponsors. I do understand the point that cynical old traditionalists like me have had their day. It’s not really the sport I grew up loving anymore but that’s my problem really, things aren’t going to get any better for the likes of me!
Report gobelins November 9, 2018 8:17 PM GMT
Cynical old traditionalists have had their day in virtually all sports gj. But, you're not alone!
Report wondersobright November 9, 2018 8:33 PM GMT
think about other sports, snooker is no different really
goals have gone up in football
scoring rates have gone up in cricket
180s have gone up in darts
points have gone up in american football

I do understand the point that cynical old traditionalists like me have had their day. It’s not really the sport I grew up loving anymore but that’s my problem really, things aren’t going to get any better for the likes of me
I agree with this though!! I include myself in this group too ha
Report BornToWin November 9, 2018 9:27 PM GMT
Standards will never be the same again, the game has peaked.

Zero talent coming through in the UK and the orientals simply do not have the minerals.

Ronnie could be mopping up these short events at 50 (years of age).
Report gjohn101 November 9, 2018 9:37 PM GMT
I don’t follow darts but they made the red bit bigger didn’t they, more trebles, more 9 darters. Bottom line stuff these days, rope in the casuals who will swallow whatever guff they’re told.
Report gobelins November 9, 2018 9:44 PM GMT
"Ronnie could be mopping up these short events at 50 (years of age)".

Surely not, that's 7 years down the line. I know they're a very average bunch these days, but they're not that bad...are they?
Report gjohn101 November 9, 2018 9:45 PM GMT
Regards the chinese players. I was surprised how critical both ronnie and jimmy were of the Asian guys when they discussed it on Eurosport during the English open. Ronnie has coached a few I think so thought it was strange he’d be so critical, jimmy basically said they didn’t practice properly though he didn’t go into a lot of detail.
Report gobelins November 9, 2018 10:03 PM GMT
How can all the Asian/Chinese players be lumped together like that though? So, they all practice the same way? L.Wenbo practices with J.Trump and J.Lisowski, and that is not going to be the same as the practice routines of some of these young Chinese players who practice together. I didn't see the discussion, but it seems a bit lazy saying that without explaining why.
Report wondersobright November 9, 2018 10:09 PM GMT
with darts its the wires that are thinner, less bounce outs, slightly bigger trebles etc etc

having said that its undeniable that the standard has gone up from years ago in darts (especially latter years of the PDC)
Report BornToWin November 9, 2018 10:18 PM GMT
Yes gobelins, they are that bad and are getting worse.

The overall standard is in decline and will continue in decline for a period I don't know, before flatlining. An apt term.
Report gjohn101 November 9, 2018 10:21 PM GMT
I dunno gobe, you know the problem with these discussions is the presenters don’t follow up with the questions you want answered. Ronnie used the word robotic while jimmy said something about “potting 50 straight long blues before they’ve had their porridge.” It didn’t get fleshed out enough but it’s still interesting that they’d be so obviously critical.
Report gjohn101 November 9, 2018 10:24 PM GMT
Cheers wonders, I knew they’d done something with it anyway.
Report trebor November 9, 2018 10:31 PM GMT
About 15 years ago ladies golf was dominated by the Americans, now it is all Asian/Chinese players, they certainly practice properly, then they have a tour to gain experience until they are ready for the American tour, not sure that snooker has that lesser but competitive tour over there? I would have more faith in them practicing well than many over here, they have a good work ethic. plus it sounds like there are so many of them and places to play.
Report trebor November 9, 2018 10:34 PM GMT
Plus they have a secret weapon, Stephen Lee is coaching them Grin
Report gobelins November 9, 2018 10:40 PM GMT
Yes, it's a shame really as that's just the sort of view that needs elaborating on, as it is not something you'd expect to hear. They probably have got perfectly legitimate reasons, beyond the examples you've given, for saying this - it would have been interesting to know what they are.

It would also be interesting to know what practice routines J.White used, as I can't imagine it was one of his strong points. S.Davis used to practice alone, and he played matches against himself Player A v Player B - and kept score, he also practiced by hitting the cue ball up and down the spots in a straight line - which would be considered a robotic way of practicing these days. It didn't do him much harm.
Report gjohn101 November 9, 2018 10:46 PM GMT
It’s possible, even likely, that down the line there’ll be some splinter in how the tour is structured, with some chinese barry hearn type looking for a bigger share of the pie. Balance of power is going to swing if things keep going the way they are, money is no issue for them. Hard to predict exactly how it’s going to turn out.

Didn’t Lee run into some recent trouble in Hong Kong or wherever he was based, thought I read something somewhere.
Report gobelins November 9, 2018 10:50 PM GMT
A Chinese B.Hearn Scared
Report trebor November 9, 2018 10:50 PM GMT
I think he was in jail out there, was not allowed back until a court case I believe for coaching without permission.
Report gjohn101 November 9, 2018 10:56 PM GMT
Yeah fair points gobe. I don’t mind your man andy goldstein too much but he’s much more focused on having lads banter with ronnie and jimmy on Eurosport than serious snooker discussion which is a bit of a weakness in their coverage. Wish I could remember how they got onto that topic in first place but it completely escapes me.

That’s it treb, was thinking there was something alright
Report trebor November 9, 2018 10:56 PM GMT
I started playing the year Steve Davis's coaching book came out, followed it to the letter and remember hitting cue ball up and down the spots for hours, plus tape on the floor to check stance etc.

I know we have talked abut the 10,000 hour rule GJ and I believe in that for sure.
Report gjohn101 November 10, 2018 10:07 AM GMT
I dunno, I’d probably racked up 10000 hours by the age of 20 and still never made a 50 break. Wanting to be alex higgins on the snooker table was a crutch I just never escaped from!
Report jed.davison November 12, 2018 9:17 AM GMT
Someone made the point above about how the tables were being manipulated to produce faster snooker and bigger breaks - this is my main bugbear at the moment with the game.

There used to be major differences between club tables and the professional set-up. Generally club tables would be slower and with larger bags, while the pro tables would be very tight but faster.

We have now reached the point - regardless of the 'all the pockets are cut the same in every tournament' mantra - where tournament tables are just too easy. Balls are being accepted, often ludicrously, when in days gone by they would have rattled and stayed out, and all on tables with fast, ultra-responsive cloths where manoeuvring the cue ball is easier than it has ever been.

Thus we have reached the point where the currency of the game's gold standard - the century break - has been diluted beyond redemption. Journeymen pros who have lived through these changes - Bingham, Hamilton, Day, Mark King being prime examples - can now win tournaments because uniformly easy conditions bring them closer to the top men and because the sheer weight of snooker tournaments means the top boys will prioritise certain events, which of course was not possible when there were far fewer tournaments.

As for the future of the game - it simply doesn't have one unless drastic changes are made. It will die when Ronnie retires, purely and simply because he is its only draw.
Report trebor November 12, 2018 10:30 AM GMT
Good post jed, probably all too true.
Report jed.davison November 12, 2018 11:27 AM GMT
Easy conditions create icons with feet of clay, which maybe explains how a pool player can become a three-time champion of the world purely because he has more cojones that anyone else.
Report wondersobright November 12, 2018 1:22 PM GMT
excellent post jed...you won't find many on here disagreeing
Report gjohn101 November 12, 2018 2:41 PM GMT
I agree with all except for the snooker dying bit and the assessment of selby which sounds a bit unfair
Report trebor November 12, 2018 4:00 PM GMT
Yes agree harsh on Selby but regards to snooker dying 40 years ago we had 3 leagues of 12 in a small little town now they have one league of 6 playing each other 4 times a season rather than the two as before, and all the teams are from two snooker clubs whereas before there was about 24 different venues.
When the ground level base decreases as it is everywhere in the UK then the standard is bound to suffer no matter what is done to the professional game.

Its not just snooker, Skittles in this town had about a dozen leagues and they down to two now. too many other things to do I guess?
Report trebor November 12, 2018 4:02 PM GMT
Forgot to add Pool was growing but not sure about that situation now?
Report wondersobright November 12, 2018 4:04 PM GMT
snooker leagues are on their arse around here too, plenty of pubs/clubs no longer open or have a snooker table or tables Sad
Report thegiggilo November 12, 2018 4:50 PM GMT
Selbys got more shots in his armoury than any other player in the game bar trump, he\s one of the most skilfull players in the game plays shots i've never seen before and hios safety is different class.He can play everything one of the best of all time without any doubt he only started playing well when he changed his cue action so that was 5/6 years wasted,the only thing he siffers with is lack of confidence tgis season he looks to have lost it again to me wouldn't back him for anything till he wins somethung big..
Report thegiggilo November 12, 2018 4:54 PM GMT
Losing o'sullivan will make little difference i very rarely watch his games,its like watching the Donald trump show the whole thing,used to be one of my favourites 20 years ago just find him totally irritating now and i'm sure i'm not the only one..
Report eyeball November 15, 2018 5:33 PM GMT
He is the only one I want to watch .

Think the slick cloth is the reason for pockets accepting shots . The balls tend to slide more imo
Report BornToWin November 16, 2018 8:47 PM GMT
Selby one of the best of all time what a hoot, he is a glorified pool player who has bored this mug era into submission at Sheffield.

Ronnie's petulant collapse, Ding what needs to be said, and a 50% Higgins collapse add up to his 3 wins.

He would not have smelt anything on the tighter tables, cue action not smooth enough.
Report thegiggilo November 16, 2018 9:49 PM GMT
You don't half talk some garbage born to win,Selbys one of the greatest match platyers of all time even o'dsullivan himself says it,tactically the best i've ever seen and as i said he's only got less shots in his armoury than trump..fantastic player and more importantly and the thing that counts bottle..
Report thegiggilo November 16, 2018 9:54 PM GMT
The current tables are against him as well,tighter tables these lot would be missing everything not knocking in centurys every other frame it's acomplete joke he'd be tying them up in knots..The only reason the resurgence for higgins,williams and o'sullivan has been the buckets they were missing the longballs by 6 inches a few years ago now miraculously can't miss,they were finished three or four years ago,now selbys struggling because its virtually impossible to keep players tight.
Report gobelins November 17, 2018 10:25 AM GMT
World Snooker Chairman Barry Hearn said: “This amazing set of results (7 of the top 16 losing to players ranked 60 or lower in R1 this week) justifies the format for this event and highlights the unprecedented quality of players throughout our tour. The players ranked among the top 16 are rewarded in the fact that they are seeded in the draw so that they can’t meet another top-16 player until the third round, but it’s a level playing field which is what top level sport should be. And they are vulnerable in the first round because there are so many good players throughout the rankings. The standard this season and the number of centuries and 147s being made has never been higher."

A lot of the staple classics from Hearn in one interview. But, just a thought - if 7 of the top 16 are losing to players ranked so low, then maybe the standard of the top 16 isn't that high.
Report gjohn101 November 17, 2018 12:18 PM GMT
We’re just been warmed up for two weeks of abject guff and spurious claims on the bbc for the duration of the uk champs. 

Today is the Ronnie’s 12th match this season in the open draw format and the first in which he will face a top 16 player, let alone the world no.1. Takes neck like a jockeys boll0x to think you can spin that as something positive.
Report wondersobright November 17, 2018 12:32 PM GMT
gobelins • November 17, 2018 10:25 AM GMT
World Snooker Chairman Barry Hearn said: “This amazing set of results (7 of the top 16 losing to players ranked 60 or lower in R1 this week) justifies the format for this event and highlights the unprecedented quality of players throughout our tour. The players ranked among the top 16 are rewarded in the fact that they are seeded in the draw so that they can’t meet another top-16 player until the third round, but it’s a level playing field which is what top level sport should be. And they are vulnerable in the first round because there are so many good players throughout the rankings. The standard this season and the number of centuries and 147s being made has never been higher."


Laugh walofs

spin doctor extraordinaire
Report dr . atkins November 17, 2018 12:48 PM GMT
on selby 3t1 7t2 outright even so got to lay ronnie at 1.57 i have different prices to that
Report dr . atkins November 17, 2018 12:51 PM GMT
wrong thread late night
Report BornToWin November 17, 2018 2:14 PM GMT
Wrong again gigolo, these tables are in his favour.

The smooth cueists who appear not to smash anything (eg Ronnie, Higgins, Williams) continue to pot on the tighter tables.

Not so smooth (Selby) miss.
Report BornToWin November 17, 2018 2:57 PM GMT
Its not even an argument that the easy tables favour the mugs, it is FACT.

Borne out by the results over the last few seasons.

The reason Ronnie and co are still around is the rampaging muggery throughout the game, not the easy tables.

But the gigolo knows all (nothing) interested only in his own ramblings.

You sir, talk some amount of cobblers.
Report thegiggilo November 17, 2018 5:08 PM GMT
Only someone who is absolutely clueless would not acknowledge that selby is one of the great players and probably more to come,you talk like an absolute idiot the man is pure class,his record speaks for itself...If the tables werre less forgiving he'd be winning the worlds every other year...as it is has become more of a lottery a pottingfest.
Report BornToWin November 17, 2018 7:13 PM GMT
Lol pack up with your deluded ramblings.

Dissect his final wins? Handed to him by faltering opponents.

Ronnie got bored, Higgins ran out of gas, and Ding as stated say no more.

There isn't much more to come, as I have said previously he will be finished very soon. The non naturals don't hang around too long.

His ultra negative approach did for him v Ron today, who pretty much goes for anything and everything.

You talk like he is your son, with your pet budgie jumping on your keyboard as you blast out more bollox.
Report eyeball November 17, 2018 7:17 PM GMT
That is some outfit
Report thegiggilo November 17, 2018 7:19 PM GMT
I think its pretty clear who is doing the deluded fanboy ramblings,as i said absolutely clueless.one of the games greats could even be greater yet,you're just a typical internet troll talking garbage because you are biased against someone.Thankfully proper snooker fabs,not fanboys would titally disagree with everything you say...
Report thegiggilo November 17, 2018 7:19 PM GMT
I think its pretty clear who is doing the deluded fanboy ramblings,as i said absolutely clueless.one of the games greats could even be greater yet,you're just a typical internet troll talking garbage because you are biased against someone.Thankfully proper snooker fabs,not fanboys would titally disagree with everything you say...
Report BornToWin November 17, 2018 8:15 PM GMT
I am not a fan of anyone, I like to see the attacking/flair players do well. Although the kamikaze $hit that Ronnie pulls these days is annoying.

The pseudo purists cling on to Selby as some kind of comfort blanket from the good old days of 72 minute frames. 'real snooker' they lament, as their misty memories of the 70s and 80s make them feel all warm.

Selby is a good villain, I respect his mental stamina which he needs in abundance with his negative first approach.
Report thegiggilo November 17, 2018 8:42 PM GMT
Snooker is dying because of tables and players knocking in tons every other frame its too easy,the only people that watch it are the fanboys they shout the loudest,the game would be ten times better if there were several more selbys in the game..Don't know where you get this stuff about negative from,he's scored just as many centurys as anyone and scores as heavily as anyone,he plays to win and he wins because he's the cleverest player in the game you can't win by being negative all the time.He is the ultimate modern day player,but with the best safety game that i've seen by a mile,otherwise how would he stop o'sullivan,trump etc you may as well just call it snooker/pool otherwise,maty as well come off the back of the pack amd play...I like all the attacking players,massive alex higgins,jimmy white,hendry was a trumop and o'sullivan fan as well now they just irritate me,eveythings hyped around ronnie huge bias on eurosports and the same thing will happen i can guarantee it 1.01 when trump starts winning,that will be shortly looking at the state of these tables.
Report BornToWin November 17, 2018 10:09 PM GMT
I have not forgiven his gamesmanship in his first final v Higgins. Possibly the only time I have seen Higgins annoyed with his opponent.

I do feel he tries to stifle the natural flow of matches, takes undue time when the shot is obvious for example. I actually think this doesn’t really help him overall.

Even today he was negative in refusing a red to middle he would have got more often than not. Ronnie then takes it and clears up. Then a possibility of claiming the match with a free ball, no he put his fate back in his opponent’s hands who pulls off the outrageous fluke. It may be hyper critical but I could see the more positive thinking player grabbing the chance to run through the finish line.
Report thegiggilo November 17, 2018 11:39 PM GMT
Nine times out of ten he wouldv'e gone for the yellow from that last foul don;'t know if he checked scoreboard as only needed red and blue was natural angle to come round for blue or pink and wouldn't have left the red..he couldv'e also put the black on bottom cush as well..I said earlier in week psychologically because of poor 2017 he's unbackable,two year lull in form always comes after good run of form and without winning a big tournament you're never going to be back to full confidence till it happens.Anyone betting him want their heads reading..
Report davyb November 18, 2018 12:03 AM GMT
having the balls replaced on the free ball was where selby messed up big time...black ball at least shud of been sent to a cushion as insuarance as he could of still got white close to yellow

fair play to selby to stick with ronnie the way he played

judd wont be able do same thing and ronnie will crush him
Report thegiggilo November 18, 2018 1:13 AM GMT
These sort of matches are run of the mill now,they're like fast food addictive but actually full of ****,eurosport spurting out trumpisms and brainwashing the redneck snooker fanboys...
Report thegiggilo November 18, 2018 10:12 PM GMT
Great prediction davy,now we get the trump hype for 5/6 years now he's back to form on the buckets still good to see him playing well but will have to watch with sound off..
Report BornToWin November 18, 2018 11:20 PM GMT
Will the J Naut be able to sustain it?

Seems blissfully deluded in his interviews.

Hopefully some old basturd wins the Worlds a real journeyman would really highlight the mug era.
Report thegiggilo November 19, 2018 1:26 AM GMT
Never watched it live just saw frame scores i presumed trump played really well,but just watched it on planner and thought o'sullivan was very loose was a very mediocre final,although it will boost trumps confidence now and any sort of improvement will probably win him at least one biggie this season..
Report jed.davison November 29, 2018 9:15 AM GMT
I should like to clear up what I meant about Selby. It wasn't meant as an indictment of him, I've got total respect for him and his talent. It was more of an indictment of the other top players, that a pool player can overcome their superior talent through his superior will.

That said, Selby has played the best shot I've ever seen on a snooker table, and the best shot I've ever seen on a pool table so I know he's not all cojones.
Report gjohn101 November 29, 2018 8:41 PM GMT
Selby was on the main snooker tour by the time he was 17 - I think - so not sure if labelling him as a pool player who turned to snooker is strictly accurate. I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t be an unusual thing for most snooker players to have started out as kids on pool tables, open to correction but I think K Wilson was a very successful pool player before he graduated to snooker.
Report trebor November 29, 2018 9:12 PM GMT
There is a 20 min video on Kyren on World Snooker website at bottom of his player profile page.
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