Forums
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
trebor
09 Nov 18 17:42
Joined:
Date Joined: 17 Aug 01
| Topic/replies: 1,531 | Blogger: trebor's blog
I posted on another thread that I thought that to give more experience and closer matches the tour would benefit if it had 64 on the main tour and a 2nd division tour for the lower ranked players, very much like tennis and golf, I felt it would help the lower ranked players to play more matches and against more equally skilled players and help to bring along their game.

This of course should also benefit the higher ranked players as they would also be playing more competitive opponents, not until I checked did I realise how much more competitive it could be. There have been 7 ranking events so far this season, (Invitational events not included) in these tournaments top 16 players have been involved in 298 matches so far, yet only 8 of those matches has been between 2 top 16 ranked players.  Seven of the top 16 are yet to face another top 16 opponent yet this season.

Who have you got to beat to win a ranking event this season? Neil Robertson, Mark Williams and Kyren Wilson won theirs without facing a top 16 opponent, while Mark Selby, Mark Allen, Jimmy Robertson and Stuart Bingham had the tougher test of beating one each.

So, if after 7 events there has been so few top of the rankings match ups maybe it is hardly surprising that the standard seems to be slipping, or playing devil’s advocate is it that these lower ranked players never received the memo about how bad their supposed to be?

Post your reply

Text Format: Table: Smilies:
Forum does not support HTML
Insert Photo
Cancel
Page 1 of 2  •  Previous 1 | 2 | Next
sort by:
Show
per page
Replies: 68
By:
gjohn101
When: 09 Nov 18 18:16
Major issue as I see it is they have put in an ambitious structure that the standard of the sport simply cannot support and won’t for many years to come. I’d say most on here were adamantly opposed to the flat 128 draw system and said so at the time. The quality isn’t there for a 128 tour and neither are the facilities or revenue. The mediocrity of the whole thing, on and off the table, is dragging it down. Far from the rising tide lifting all boats dream scenario, the reality is the system is dragging those at the top down the other direction.

Bit of a doom scenario but I’m not convinced the sport is moving forward under the current structure. Unless some radical changes are made they will just continue to damage it more and more. Imo anyway.
By:
gobelins
When: 09 Nov 18 19:04
Some interesting points there Trebor - and certainly some food for thought. I'm sure the current Hearn regime didn't envisage seeing stats like that, although he would probably say there are now numerous small event fields for the top players. I'm not against 128 players on the tour, even accepting that as gj says - a lot of the really lower ranked players aren't good enough, but I am against having 128 players at a venue for so many reasons - the most important one, is that you then have to play Best-Of-7 frame matches in order to cram all the matches in, and that is surely not the point of professional sport.

For me, the big problem with just 64 players on the main tour is determining how many players are promoted or relegated? The number would have to be massively reduced from the current number. At the moment several amateur champions gain entry onto the tour and 12 players make it via Q school - which is a really good innovation as it allows anyone (including ex-pro's) a fair opportunity to join/re-join the tour.

The idea of making more competitive games for the lower ranked players could be addressed by allowing the top 32 to join a tournament at the L64 stage, with the other 96 pro's play for the other 32 places in the tournament.
By:
trebor
When: 09 Nov 18 19:08
Yes I agree 128 is too many at present, as I say something like 64 with the 2nd division/feeder rankings and also a circuit in China is needed, I have no idea what they can compete in over there other than a handful of tournaments, otherwise the talent from there has nowhere to progress.

64 rather than 128 helps with overcrowding at venues, and surely the revenue/structure is better than it was in the past. Not sure what the mediocrity issue is, and far from dragging the top players down it is up to them to grab the opportunity, not choose to be dragged down, maybe some just think they need to turn up to beat a lowly ranked player but with so few seeds getting through to last 16 it would seem not. If I was a player looking for a career in snooker I would see real opportunity now, not as it was 15 / 20 years or so back when it was a closed shop, a lot of players gave up back then mostley for the reasons you quoted abve gj.

But not so many playing the game now, thats why they need to nurture China carefully imo.
By:
trebor
When: 09 Nov 18 19:16
The idea of making more competitive games for the lower ranked players could be addressed by allowing the top 32 to join a tournament at the L64 stage, with the other 96 pro's play for the other 32 places in the tournament.

I agree that makes sense, just I feel it is unfair for one player to have to play so many more games to win a tournament than a top player, but maybe I am being overoptimistic that a new player really expects to come through all those games, let alone win it.


But maybe a player would prefer that to being relegated?
By:
wondersobright
When: 09 Nov 18 19:18
The idea of making more competitive games for the lower ranked players could be addressed by allowing the top 32 to join a tournament at the L64 stage, with the other 96 pro's play for the other 32 places in the tournament

hearn will never go for that, he has banged the drum for a level playing field for years, he isn't going to about turn
By:
gjohn101
When: 09 Nov 18 19:22
I agree with those suggestions, they make sense to me. I said before I don’t have any magic formula, but I think anything to streamline the tour and increase the attractiveness to the public is a good thing. If in, say, 10-15 years there’s been a notable increase in numbers and quality then you start expanding. Seems to me they have done it the wrong way round.

Kind of redundant this discussion though because we all know little will ever change. An end to bo7, the uk restored as a great tournament. That needs to happen if they’re serious about the health of the sport.
By:
gjohn101
When: 09 Nov 18 19:25
Yes wonders, I was typing when you posted that but more or less my point. Not going to change because that would be admitting mistakes. Just ain’t gonna happen.
By:
gobelins
When: 09 Nov 18 19:33
Hearn has banged the level playing field drum for years, and part of me thinks 'fair enough'. But, having 128 players at a venue means that you have to put quantity above quality. In order to make sure that accusation isn't levelled against him, the playing conditions are made easier, and so we get more maximums, more centuries etc, and therefore he can point to these misleading stats to claim that the standard is rising. We're all more or less in the same camp on this - let's just hope he never tampers with The World Championship format or venue.
By:
trebor
When: 09 Nov 18 19:43
Good explanation gogelins, I wonder how much Hearn has to do with table conditions at a venue?
By:
gjohn101
When: 09 Nov 18 20:00
100% believe that conditions are being manipulated to facilitate more open and faster games which, among other things, pleases the tv crowd. Also helps sustain the rising standards myth which, I assume, is a hopeful selling point when it comes to sponsors. I do understand the point that cynical old traditionalists like me have had their day. It’s not really the sport I grew up loving anymore but that’s my problem really, things aren’t going to get any better for the likes of me!
By:
gobelins
When: 09 Nov 18 20:17
Cynical old traditionalists have had their day in virtually all sports gj. But, you're not alone!
By:
wondersobright
When: 09 Nov 18 20:33
think about other sports, snooker is no different really
goals have gone up in football
scoring rates have gone up in cricket
180s have gone up in darts
points have gone up in american football

I do understand the point that cynical old traditionalists like me have had their day. It’s not really the sport I grew up loving anymore but that’s my problem really, things aren’t going to get any better for the likes of me
I agree with this though!! I include myself in this group too ha
By:
BornToWin
When: 09 Nov 18 21:27
Standards will never be the same again, the game has peaked.

Zero talent coming through in the UK and the orientals simply do not have the minerals.

Ronnie could be mopping up these short events at 50 (years of age).
By:
gjohn101
When: 09 Nov 18 21:37
I don’t follow darts but they made the red bit bigger didn’t they, more trebles, more 9 darters. Bottom line stuff these days, rope in the casuals who will swallow whatever guff they’re told.
By:
gobelins
When: 09 Nov 18 21:44
"Ronnie could be mopping up these short events at 50 (years of age)".

Surely not, that's 7 years down the line. I know they're a very average bunch these days, but they're not that bad...are they?
By:
gjohn101
When: 09 Nov 18 21:45
Regards the chinese players. I was surprised how critical both ronnie and jimmy were of the Asian guys when they discussed it on Eurosport during the English open. Ronnie has coached a few I think so thought it was strange he’d be so critical, jimmy basically said they didn’t practice properly though he didn’t go into a lot of detail.
By:
gobelins
When: 09 Nov 18 22:03
How can all the Asian/Chinese players be lumped together like that though? So, they all practice the same way? L.Wenbo practices with J.Trump and J.Lisowski, and that is not going to be the same as the practice routines of some of these young Chinese players who practice together. I didn't see the discussion, but it seems a bit lazy saying that without explaining why.
By:
wondersobright
When: 09 Nov 18 22:09
with darts its the wires that are thinner, less bounce outs, slightly bigger trebles etc etc

having said that its undeniable that the standard has gone up from years ago in darts (especially latter years of the PDC)
By:
BornToWin
When: 09 Nov 18 22:18
Yes gobelins, they are that bad and are getting worse.

The overall standard is in decline and will continue in decline for a period I don't know, before flatlining. An apt term.
By:
gjohn101
When: 09 Nov 18 22:21
I dunno gobe, you know the problem with these discussions is the presenters don’t follow up with the questions you want answered. Ronnie used the word robotic while jimmy said something about “potting 50 straight long blues before they’ve had their porridge.” It didn’t get fleshed out enough but it’s still interesting that they’d be so obviously critical.
By:
gjohn101
When: 09 Nov 18 22:24
Cheers wonders, I knew they’d done something with it anyway.
By:
trebor
When: 09 Nov 18 22:31
About 15 years ago ladies golf was dominated by the Americans, now it is all Asian/Chinese players, they certainly practice properly, then they have a tour to gain experience until they are ready for the American tour, not sure that snooker has that lesser but competitive tour over there? I would have more faith in them practicing well than many over here, they have a good work ethic. plus it sounds like there are so many of them and places to play.
By:
trebor
When: 09 Nov 18 22:34
Plus they have a secret weapon, Stephen Lee is coaching them Grin
By:
gobelins
When: 09 Nov 18 22:40
Yes, it's a shame really as that's just the sort of view that needs elaborating on, as it is not something you'd expect to hear. They probably have got perfectly legitimate reasons, beyond the examples you've given, for saying this - it would have been interesting to know what they are.

It would also be interesting to know what practice routines J.White used, as I can't imagine it was one of his strong points. S.Davis used to practice alone, and he played matches against himself Player A v Player B - and kept score, he also practiced by hitting the cue ball up and down the spots in a straight line - which would be considered a robotic way of practicing these days. It didn't do him much harm.
By:
gjohn101
When: 09 Nov 18 22:46
It’s possible, even likely, that down the line there’ll be some splinter in how the tour is structured, with some chinese barry hearn type looking for a bigger share of the pie. Balance of power is going to swing if things keep going the way they are, money is no issue for them. Hard to predict exactly how it’s going to turn out.

Didn’t Lee run into some recent trouble in Hong Kong or wherever he was based, thought I read something somewhere.
By:
gobelins
When: 09 Nov 18 22:50
A Chinese B.Hearn Scared
By:
trebor
When: 09 Nov 18 22:50
I think he was in jail out there, was not allowed back until a court case I believe for coaching without permission.
By:
gjohn101
When: 09 Nov 18 22:56
Yeah fair points gobe. I don’t mind your man andy goldstein too much but he’s much more focused on having lads banter with ronnie and jimmy on Eurosport than serious snooker discussion which is a bit of a weakness in their coverage. Wish I could remember how they got onto that topic in first place but it completely escapes me.

That’s it treb, was thinking there was something alright
By:
trebor
When: 09 Nov 18 22:56
I started playing the year Steve Davis's coaching book came out, followed it to the letter and remember hitting cue ball up and down the spots for hours, plus tape on the floor to check stance etc.

I know we have talked abut the 10,000 hour rule GJ and I believe in that for sure.
By:
gjohn101
When: 10 Nov 18 10:07
I dunno, I’d probably racked up 10000 hours by the age of 20 and still never made a 50 break. Wanting to be alex higgins on the snooker table was a crutch I just never escaped from!
By:
jed.davison
When: 12 Nov 18 09:17
Someone made the point above about how the tables were being manipulated to produce faster snooker and bigger breaks - this is my main bugbear at the moment with the game.

There used to be major differences between club tables and the professional set-up. Generally club tables would be slower and with larger bags, while the pro tables would be very tight but faster.

We have now reached the point - regardless of the 'all the pockets are cut the same in every tournament' mantra - where tournament tables are just too easy. Balls are being accepted, often ludicrously, when in days gone by they would have rattled and stayed out, and all on tables with fast, ultra-responsive cloths where manoeuvring the cue ball is easier than it has ever been.

Thus we have reached the point where the currency of the game's gold standard - the century break - has been diluted beyond redemption. Journeymen pros who have lived through these changes - Bingham, Hamilton, Day, Mark King being prime examples - can now win tournaments because uniformly easy conditions bring them closer to the top men and because the sheer weight of snooker tournaments means the top boys will prioritise certain events, which of course was not possible when there were far fewer tournaments.

As for the future of the game - it simply doesn't have one unless drastic changes are made. It will die when Ronnie retires, purely and simply because he is its only draw.
By:
trebor
When: 12 Nov 18 10:30
Good post jed, probably all too true.
By:
jed.davison
When: 12 Nov 18 11:27
Easy conditions create icons with feet of clay, which maybe explains how a pool player can become a three-time champion of the world purely because he has more cojones that anyone else.
By:
wondersobright
When: 12 Nov 18 13:22
excellent post jed...you won't find many on here disagreeing
By:
gjohn101
When: 12 Nov 18 14:41
I agree with all except for the snooker dying bit and the assessment of selby which sounds a bit unfair
By:
trebor
When: 12 Nov 18 16:00
Yes agree harsh on Selby but regards to snooker dying 40 years ago we had 3 leagues of 12 in a small little town now they have one league of 6 playing each other 4 times a season rather than the two as before, and all the teams are from two snooker clubs whereas before there was about 24 different venues.
When the ground level base decreases as it is everywhere in the UK then the standard is bound to suffer no matter what is done to the professional game.

Its not just snooker, Skittles in this town had about a dozen leagues and they down to two now. too many other things to do I guess?
By:
trebor
When: 12 Nov 18 16:02
Forgot to add Pool was growing but not sure about that situation now?
By:
wondersobright
When: 12 Nov 18 16:04
snooker leagues are on their arse around here too, plenty of pubs/clubs no longer open or have a snooker table or tables Sad
By:
thegiggilo
When: 12 Nov 18 16:50
Selbys got more shots in his armoury than any other player in the game bar trump, he\s one of the most skilfull players in the game plays shots i've never seen before and hios safety is different class.He can play everything one of the best of all time without any doubt he only started playing well when he changed his cue action so that was 5/6 years wasted,the only thing he siffers with is lack of confidence tgis season he looks to have lost it again to me wouldn't back him for anything till he wins somethung big..
Page 1 of 2  •  Previous 1 | 2 | Next
sort by:
Show
per page

Post your reply

Text Format: Table: Smilies:
Forum does not support HTML
Insert Photo
Cancel
‹ back to topics
www.betfair.com