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22 Oct 18 10:45
Date Joined: 16 Mar 11
| Topic/replies: 1,914 | Blogger: jed.davison's blog
Firstly, let's nail the lie that he didn't know what he had done - anyone who has played the game to a high level knows that if the man with the greatest touch in snooker history moves a ball three inches with his cue, he knows that's what he's done.

So, can he ever make up for cheating a fellow pro in a tournament? Not for me. He's no longer the Rocket, no longer the only player worth paying to see, he's a common or garden cheat.

He has made the choice not to call that foul on himself, because he's bang under it in a game he was nailed on to win, and for this very simple reason: he thinks he is above the game.

We all know he's chucked the semi after realising he can't go on to win a tournament in which he has so blatantly cheated, but that's just yet another example of him cheating the game and the public.
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Report gjohn101 October 22, 2018 11:13 AM BST
Not sure how much of a stigma will remain to be honest, I think most will pretty much forget it fairly quickly, it’s just us on here who don’t get sucked into the ronnie fanboy culture you get elsewhere.

Only thing I would say in mitigation is I think you can make a distinction between what ronnie did and blatant acts of premeditated cheating. If ronnie had feathered the white, as davis did yesterday, would he have called it? I believe he would without question. The way this happened was probably such a shock, taken his brain a vital second or two to compute it, and leads him to miss the moment. A failure to act clearly but I’m less inclined than others to throw the entire book at him for it. It’s obvious he’s feeling pretty bad about it, particularly if you truly believe he yanked the sf because of it.

I’ve said already I believe he might come clean about it at some stage, maybe an updated book perhaps, though have to wait a while for it.
Report gjohn101 October 22, 2018 11:15 AM BST
*tanked the sf ffs!!
Report trebor October 22, 2018 11:26 AM BST
There is nothing to suggest he chucked the semi? so we don't all know he did.
Report Howellsy October 22, 2018 11:26 AM BST
I missed it live. Most onlookers missed it live. That's because we were focusing on the ball's route to the pocket. Ronnie would not have been sure whether the ball was going in or not due to being side on to it. I recall reading about an experiment where people were asked to watch a clip of basketball and count the number of passes for each team - something like that - a task which required complete focus. During the clip, a man in a gorilla outfit walked across the court. None of the onlookers noticed it. AFterwards, shown the clip again, they refused to accept it could have been the same clip. I believe it's possible Ronnie was focusing  so intently he didn't notice it. But if you scorn that possibility, then you're saying he DID notice it. And if he did, it must have seemed like an obvious one to him. Three inches of movement! He knows the cameras are watching and pick up on everything. I just don't think he had anything to gain in those circumstances. People are saying he was up against it, under the cosh, etc. On the other hand, it was an English open quarter final and it wasn't even the deciding frame. In the context of a career, it was a pretty meaningless moment / frame/ match. Do yo really think he would risk his reputation on that? I just can't accept it. And I'm no apologist for Ronnie's behaviour over the years.
Report jed.davison October 22, 2018 11:31 AM BST
As I said Howellsy, I am not even having for a second that he didn't know he'd done it. He doesn't make the calculation about potential gain or loss to his reputation, but in the two or three seconds he has to call the foul, he decides not to.

As for there being nothing to suggest he chucked the semi, watch it again and get back to me.
Report trebor October 22, 2018 11:35 AM BST
So you don't have a reasoning for him chucking it then?
Report jed.davison October 22, 2018 11:38 AM BST
Sorry? I told you above why he chucked it, and his demeanour and play strongly indicates that's how it was.
Report trebor October 22, 2018 11:41 AM BST
So we all know his play indicates he chucked, not quite the same thing is it?
Report jed.davison October 22, 2018 11:42 AM BST
Whatever mate, I'm pretty sure when it comes to snooker, and Ronnie, I know exactly what I'm looking at.
Report jed.davison October 22, 2018 11:42 AM BST
But enjoy your semantic triumph, well done you.
Report trebor October 22, 2018 11:45 AM BST
No you say we all know he chucked it, that's your opinion and that's fine, but my guess would be that you are in the minority with that opinion.
Report jed.davison October 22, 2018 11:52 AM BST
I don't care about that, I've been doing this for twenty years mate and it's never done me any harm to oppose the majority view when betting on snooker, in fact all sports are the same in that respect.

I've probably made more money betting on games involving Ronnie than any other single sportsman - while he has sorted his mental state out to some degree I think you can still read his mood and level of determination within a few shots of the game starting. To be honest, I was expecting him to have realised in the day between matches that his reputation would suffer much greater harm if he went on to win the tournament than if he made a timely exit before the final.
Report atomxz October 22, 2018 11:58 AM BST
Lets hang him and light him on fire.
Report jed.davison October 22, 2018 12:06 PM BST
I think you're missing out two very important stages atom - tarring and feathering obviously.
Report trebor October 22, 2018 12:08 PM BST
Yes I agree with all that, could have written the first sentence myself, and  you always want to see Ronnie's temperament before putting down, just think Davis deserves some credit for the way he played.
Report trebor October 22, 2018 12:09 PM BST

Yes I agree with all that, could have written the first sentence myself, and  you always want to see Ronnie's temperament before putting your money down, just think Davis deserves some credit for the way he played.
Report jed.davison October 22, 2018 12:15 PM BST
Of course he does, especially given how he hasn't produced his best for a while.
Report atomxz October 22, 2018 12:20 PM BST
I'm sickened on how some people require god-level fairness from this situation.
I'm more shocked that neither referre nor opponent were paying attention! Ronnie obviosly saw what he did but didnt react to it cause no one else did.... He took the chance.
And i'm pretty ****g sure that is why he lost so miserably on the final table , because he was called out afterwards for someone elses lack of professionalism!!!
Report jed.davison October 22, 2018 12:26 PM BST
I'm more shocked that neither referre nor opponent were paying attention! Ronnie obviosly saw what he did but didnt react to it cause no one else did.... He took the chance.

Yeah, he took the chance, and his reputation is sullied for ever.
Report atomxz October 22, 2018 12:28 PM BST
Report gjohn101 October 22, 2018 12:29 PM BST
Just 2 points I’d make. Doesn’t matter what we, the viewers, saw or didn’t see. Ronnie’s the one best placed to see it and it’s frankly very hard to argue he could have missed it imo. There’s a lesson for the ref here too in that when rest or spider is involved be on extra guard rather than concentrating on being in a position to replace it for the player. Let him do that himself ffs

The other point is it’s a bit illogical to call ronnie out as a blatant cheat and then claim he deliberately tanked the sf. Those positions don’t follow imo. Cheats cheat because they want to win and do whatever it takes to do so without attacks of remorse or conscience that lead them to acts of self sabotage next time out. It doesn’t seem to me that ronnie actually decides anything because he does not even have time to weigh things up. He does nothing because that’s simply what instinct dictates on this occasion. However that mitigates it is up for you to decide.
Report jed.davison October 22, 2018 12:40 PM BST
I think they do follow - as I said I expected him to tank the semi precisely for the reasons in my previous post.

And again I think it is perfectly reasonable for him, having cheated, to feel bad about it.
Report gjohn101 October 22, 2018 1:22 PM BST
Fair enough jed, I’m just wondering if it’d be worth trying to put this in some perspective.

In my book a common or garden cheat, as you put it, is a guy who bets his opponent to win or a doper. An athlete doped up to the gills who wins his sf by 20 meters does not normally get an attack of the guilties and then false start the final the next day. Likewise the guy betting on himself to lose does not come to his senses and start trying his absolute best to win.

These are common or garden cheats and whatever law ronnie transgressed i personally would not place him in that category.
Report jed.davison October 22, 2018 1:31 PM BST
You have to consider his opponent as well though surely? How will being cheated out of that match affect him? When he sits down and reviews the match, he will know he lost because Ronnie cheated him.
Report thegiggilo October 22, 2018 1:58 PM BST
As said earlier in thread the lowest of the low,even when you're playing your mate in the club instinct you just own up even if they don't have a clue,to do that world champion at his age just sums his attitude up..imagine of reardon or davis or hendry had done that would never have heard the end of it..But now you can do anything you like,the attitude lots seem to have now and and lets all laugh about it and of course it's o'sullivan so lets not say anuthing and forget it..
Report gjohn101 October 22, 2018 2:07 PM BST
Yeah fair point jed, it’s unfortunate on him but I don’t see why he’s going to suffer from this. He might not have won anyway and if anything, he can take great heart from the performance. It’s not satisfactory but don’t see any consequences for him personally.
Report davyb October 22, 2018 9:06 PM BST
he points out he never seen it in a million yrs, that's fair enough as I to don't think he sees it, I wanted to believe Ronnie would defo declare a foul on himself

it was only when i watched this back with a set of  headphones on im now convinced he would of heard that distinctive sound of ferrule touching object ball and he would of also felt it

his lack of performance in the semis was through sheer guilt
Report BornToWin October 22, 2018 10:49 PM BST
I think its easily possible he missed that.
Report thegiggilo October 23, 2018 1:29 AM BST
As said befire o'sullivan doesn't give a fcuk about anyone else like higgins will do anything to win,all this guilt stuff is utter nonsense he certainly didn't lose through guilt,more like fcuk i've been caiught out and look like a ****.
Report jed.davison October 23, 2018 11:21 AM BST
As I said in my OP, I don't think it was guilt, more that he had a day to realise he couldn't win a tournament in which he had cheated because his conduct would have been examined in far greater detail. It was simply expedient for him to lose, so he did.
Report Latalomne October 23, 2018 3:25 PM BST
I broadly agree with Jed.  There literally wasn't a single mention of the previous night's events during Ronnie's defeat to Davis, or subsequently, from what I heard.  Still not utterly convinced that the decision to lose on Saturday was of his own making, though....
Report Latalomne October 23, 2018 3:35 PM BST
ie "It was simply expedient FOR SNOOKER for him to lose, so he did."
Report trebor October 23, 2018 4:07 PM BST
Over their 10 previous games Davis has a reasonable record against Ronnie and I doubt he played better in any of the matches than he did on Saturday.
Profit of 11pts now from the 11 matches on Betfair, and Davis has won the only final and semi-final that they have met in, I still don't think Ronnie threw that game.
Report gjohn101 October 23, 2018 4:29 PM BST
Checked the record to see what final davis beat OSullivan in. It’s that thing they call the championship league, whatever it is.

What caught my eye though was the score in the deciding frame: 57-2. Very unusual frame score that, guess davis could have potted a load of low colours but wonder how many reds were left when ronnie conceded!
Report Latalomne October 23, 2018 6:07 PM BST
Davis made a break of 55, so there were defo 4 reds potted without colours.  And it was only the final of a group stage, not the overall tournament (so Ronnie would have been back for Group 6 anyway).
Report trebor October 23, 2018 6:21 PM BST
Yes from that score you can work out a few things, like, Ronnie must have only potted 2 balls, Davis could not have committed a foul and this was one of only 2 final frame deciders they have played, Davis winning both!!  But without checking which is the only one of those 3 could you guarantee?
Report gobelins October 23, 2018 6:35 PM BST
I didn't see the R.O'Sullivan v M.Davis match, so I can't comment on whether O'Sullivan consciously played well below par, but for those of you who did watch it - I'd be interested in O'Sullivan's body language particularly early on. I did think pre-match that O'Sullivan might under-perform, and might think that he'd be better off losing, but I didn't bet against him as I thought a big Saturday night match, with a full house, a lot of whom would have been supporting Davis, would see his natural instincts take over especially at the start.
Report trebor October 23, 2018 7:00 PM BST
After Davis made 55 break it was 57-1 Ronnie potted first red of 3 left and missed black
Report gjohn101 October 23, 2018 7:06 PM BST
Didn’t occur to me that he was not himself till about frame 3. Though do remember him playing a safety shot in the 2nd that I thought was weird, instead of playing an obvious snooker he just played white to baulk cushion. Now while that actually led to the frame winning chance the shot still struck me as casual and odd. Anyway I’m not in the he tanked it on purpose chorus, but the feeling he just wasn’t going to over exert himself grew gradually over the course of the match. My instinct would tell me that if he could have won that match a handy 6-2 or even 6-3 he’d have willingly done so. By 1-4 it already looked like no mas.
Report gjohn101 October 23, 2018 7:08 PM BST
Fair enough treb, I figured he needed snookers alright, just looked a fairly uncommon frame score is all Cool

Gonna definitely try and figure out what the championship league is one of these days!
Report dr . atkins October 23, 2018 10:37 PM BST
what a load of bo11ocks about ronnie i take notice from the players and except for one they all agree ronnie never knew about the foul in the british open
Report trebor October 24, 2018 10:21 AM BST
I think the Betfair forum pulls less punches than most other places of debate, maybe we are just a bunch of moody b*******, but looking at these other forums comments they are just stupid, like "Ronnie don't need to cheat" or "Ronnie always calls his fouls" and "Ronnie was not looking at the red he was following the white"

But now if you are saying 127 pros say he did not know and only one believes he did that's a bit more powerful, I don't use Twitter or places like that, has there been a poll taken? or if you are saying a handful have supported Ronnie and one has not that to me would mean nothing, in fact I think the silence of the vast majority would be quite damming.
Report Latalomne October 24, 2018 10:47 AM BST
From the discussion we had on Saturday night, only a handful of pros had voiced any kind of opinion.  Robbo supported him wholeheartedly, Allen reminisced about an incident where he smashed up half the table with the rest, and apparently there was one "salty comment", but I don't think it was attributed to anyone. 

For me, and Wonder pointed out that Ronnie's a terrible actor before the interview, the whole "What, what, what?  What am I looking at?!?" thing was completely over-acted.  "The commentator should have stopped the match!" Brilliant. 

The Eurosport guys ("Mates") exonerated him before any discussion even took place.  And, seemingly, there has been no subsequent mention of it AT ALL since.  Ronnie literally sat there in silence on Sunday night in the commentary box when Davis feathered the white and called a foul upon himself. 

IF it was dodgy, I can understand why the sport would want to gloss over it as quickly as possible.  It's not in its interests for its biggest box office pull to be considered a cheat.
Report gjohn101 October 24, 2018 12:28 PM BST
Rob Milkins it was with the barbed comment. “Sure the red hardly moved”. He might just have been trying to be funny but sounded pretty salty to me anyway.

I’m pretty much with trebor here. We might think we’re all clued in snooker fans here and objective when it comes to judgement of deed or character, but we’re a minority, we’re not the snooker establishment nor the army of casual fans who almost to a man or woman can’t see ronnie doing any wrong.

Other comments I have come across over the past few days: “it’s so obvious that he mustn’t have seen the red move.” “Ronnie offered a replay [actually an utterly ridiculous thing to do which he surely knew] because he felt so bad for his opponent, that’s the sort of man he is.”
If Ronnie came out and admitted he threw the sf on purpose, they’d still find a way of commending him, that’s just how it is.

Out of interest if I threw the name John parrot into this conversation would folk instantly know what I was referring to?
Report trebor October 24, 2018 12:40 PM BST
Parrott was in an impossible situation, he played the only ball he could see and didn't commit a foul. think he is innocent even if the red had fallen.
Report gjohn101 October 24, 2018 12:51 PM BST
Which parrott incident is that? Have a feeling there were a couple involving him. Doesn’t sound like the 1992 world championship one.
Report trebor October 24, 2018 12:52 PM BST
Oh your talking about the miss against Knowles, the one I put was against Davis
Report trebor October 24, 2018 12:58 PM BST
The one I was talking about was when he potted a red and the only ball he could see was black but a red was in the jaws of the pocket, if he gave away 7 points by knocking the red in Davis needed a snooker, he tried to knock the red away with the black  knowing if the red dropped it was still advantageous to him as it took 8 points off the table
Report gjohn101 October 24, 2018 1:05 PM BST
Oh yeah I do recall that one now, not sure about it but it’s not what I was referring to.

Why I raise the knowles one is I’m wondering whether parrott is still remembered for that - a lifetime stigma as mooted in the thread title here - and how would people compare it to the ronnie incident. Seems to me the parrott one is far more grievous than anything ron is guilty of.
Report trebor October 24, 2018 1:11 PM BST
I would say it is worse than the Ronnie incident as he had plenty of time to think about what he was about to do, Ronnie had not much more than a second to own up, both probably would like to have a second chance and act differently.
Report gjohn101 October 24, 2018 1:23 PM BST
It’s much worse because as you say, he had plenty of time to consider what he was doing and everybody, except ref apparently, sees what’s happening too.

But I just don’t believe careers are stigmatized by these things in any serious way. Do people still talk about the boulder moving incident with Tiger Woods at the Phoenix Open years back? Or the drop at the masters. Will Serena Williams career be undermined by her hissy fit at the us open? No I think is the answer, not in any significant way. Same here. Most will have forgotten it within a short space of time.
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