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BornToWin
20 Jan 17 21:28
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Date Joined: 13 Jul 05
| Topic/replies: 4,340 | Blogger: BornToWin's blog
... the average age of the semi finalists.

42 - Journeyman Joe, strived for years for crumbs from the top table now suddenly on £300k+ a year.
41 - Ronnie O' no not another outburst, a shadow of the guy who could hardly win a world title until the way was cleared.
39- Marco Who? Ranking final every 10 years or so... oh wait now a regular.
37- Barry I find a bit of an enigma certainly has a clincher's disease though.

Standards are as low as they have perhaps ever been. Robbo, Ding, Allen, and Murphy are all particularly devoid of minerals. The remainder of the top 10 are ball run bucket pocket champ Bingham, the fading John Higgins (thanks for buckets Bazza I like cash), Judd (boy I can pot, why can't I win?).

Selby is an interesting one, keep thinking he will go on to dominate majorly but then gets Bazza'ed like he did today.

Kyren Wilson has a shout I suppose, but he's 25 - king Hendry VII had about 4 world titles by then.

So, who else is coming through aged 25 or under? Erm, em, eh, Luca Brecel!?

The game is in a serious decline, but the show must go on!

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Replies: 95
By:
peckerdunne
When: 20 Jan 17 21:51
A good and correct post.............

Said so a number of years ago and it just gets worse...
By:
gentlemanjohn
When: 20 Jan 17 22:13
The game has gone haywire over the past 10-15 years, grandads taking over and no young players coming through. And instead of doing anything about it, the games rulers, cheered on by the bbc keep telling us that the standard has never been higher. I heard parrot and doherty talking yesterday as if this was one of the best masters tournaments ever. Hazels interview with barry hearn yesterday made me want to kick the tv screen in. Their complacency is sickening.
By:
thegiggilo
When: 20 Jan 17 22:33
Absolute trash worst masters in history,why would anyone remember the masters of 2017 think three or four of us have been saying the same thing for years on here,yet 90% of the posters,mainly fanboys were saying standards were rising I see they have all disappeared.I see they're going on about record centurys again at the masters,really is nauseating stuff
By:
ccd
When: 20 Jan 17 23:31
See my post 'Its like Last of the Summer Wine...' We need some new stars. Time for Barry to wildcard one promising new YOUNG player into each tournament or SOMETHING!

I don't know what the answer is - maybe the game has skipped a generation.

Maybe this is about the wider problem of an ageing population. If you read the Guardian you will know how bad the 'millennials' have it - horrific debts, never go out, no hope, no future. The baby boomers are coining it and the kids are basically finished.
By:
Platini
When: 20 Jan 17 23:31
all part of the dumbed down society im afraid

we've had dumbed down politics and dumbed down media. why not dumbed down sports?  Sad
By:
ccd
When: 20 Jan 17 23:50
I watch the BBC coverage and see millionaire after millionaire talking about the game that made them. I really hope I am right in imagining they are doing there bit to water the grassroots.
By:
gentlemanjohn
When: 20 Jan 17 23:56
Dont know about the rest, but i will say doherty has a good club in dublin which encourages kids to join and play on reduced rates. Sure, he's a canny businessman, (they dont call him crafty for his snooker skills) but he does care and is making an effort. Just saddens me to hear him trot out the party line so often when deep down i think he knows the truth.
By:
ccd
When: 20 Jan 17 23:57
You get the truth more from Hendry - he is less of company man I think.
Let's make hats saying 'make snooker great again'
By:
jed.davison
When: 20 Jan 17 23:58
What kind of hats?
By:
ccd
When: 20 Jan 17 23:59
Big ones!
By:
jed.davison
When: 21 Jan 17 00:06
I always like to play snooker in a hat. I've got a fetching pork-pie hat I wear to the pub which houses my favourite pool table locally. But I'd play snooker in a beanie. I've never really got into nine-ball, but I could see myself settling on a fez if I did.
By:
gentlemanjohn
When: 21 Jan 17 00:08
Anything but a trilby..look how twattish those guys look on sky when they show the golf trilby tour...
By:
jed.davison
When: 21 Jan 17 00:13
The trilby is the favoured headwear of buffoons, gentlemanjohn.
By:
jed.davison
When: 21 Jan 17 00:17
Curiously I have been talking about Jacob Rees-Mogg on the politics thread just now, and he has argued that people who are authorised to issue on-the-spot fines should have to wear bowler hats.
By:
thegiggilo
When: 21 Jan 17 00:44
Maybe the way forward get o'sullivan and nookie bear to wear fez's in sundays final,evertime they knock in a ton can turn to the crowd and say ''just like that''!
By:
moondan
When: 21 Jan 17 07:35
Dennis and Stephen in commentary.

Hendry  "the players are saying the pockets are playing Generous"  slight pause from Dennis " well they covered the cushions yesterday.

Hendry   "I am only saying what the players are talking about"

It was quite obvious Dennis wanted to get off this subject and I could hear him thinking, " For f--ks sake Stephen your rolling in money,
please shut the f-ck up"

Earlier in the day hEARN stated that if you give the fans what they want snooker will thrive.

Meanwhile Davis and his Parrot continue to plumb new depths with the worst ever commentaries in the history of the game.

In the old days at Wembley you could go to the dogs on a friday and Monday if snooker finished really early, now under Hearn he has taken snooker to the dogs full time.
Of course the fanboys are loving it but what do they know? Ignorance is bliss they say but they are the real enemy of the game. It should be compulsery for them to wear the fanboy badge at all tournaments.

While this is organised the rest of us should pelt shXthead Hearn with lumps of it.
By:
johnnythebull
When: 21 Jan 17 08:15
can't recall seeing tighter pockets in an event for a long timeWink
By:
peckerdunne
When: 21 Jan 17 12:12
In the old days at Wembley you could go to the dogs on a friday and Monday if snooker finished really early, now under Hearn he has taken snooker to the dogs full time.

LOL.........Not bad for a banjaxed old timer............Laugh
By:
BornToWin
When: 21 Jan 17 12:46
Some of the near jaw slide ins are embarrassing. Even into the middle bags at reasonable pace.
By:
thegiggilo
When: 21 Jan 17 15:38
Looks like the fanboy nookie bear finals on another 10-2 drubbing..
By:
ZenMaster
When: 21 Jan 17 19:50
Are younger players less dedicated than the older guard>?  let's not just focus on table conditions, because this is all about mindset.

Young kids taking up the game are not handling the pressure or discipline as they did. There must be something in this.

Perhaps the pressure of not making it becomes too much for them. I mean what do they have to fall back on these days? a customer service job on £7.20, prospects look weak.
30 years ago if the snooker didn't work out, you would still get a job running a club perhaps, but not these days.

We are not breeding tough nut players. Is this an effect from generation snowflake?
By:
BornToWin
When: 21 Jan 17 20:32
The money available should dictate that it is an attractive proposition to become a top snooker player.

The journey is too long I guess, not all top snooker players are great overnight.

Today's quick fix generation could see the next Steve Davis jack it in after 1 frame.
By:
thegiggilo
When: 21 Jan 17 22:29
thegiggilo 21 Jan 17 01:44  



Maybe the way forward get o'sullivan and nookie bear to wear fez's in sundays final,evertime they knock in a ton can turn to the crowd and say ''just like that''

To easy this game....Cool
By:
moondan
When: 22 Jan 17 00:08
Zen, its a case of where have all the snooker clubs gone, places to play the game or have the time and money to learn, its not cheap, so unless your daddies rich its almost impossible.
Running a pub or a snooker hall is a  quick way to an early grave. Property is far too expensive now and space is in short supply so its not going to get cheaper anytime soon and it has to pay its way.
The kids are into all the fancy games on computers or such, its a different world now.
When I was going to the tournaments it was mostly older folks and even in the 80s unless Alex was playing you could count the faces on 2 hands until it got to the quarters.
Snookers fan base in those days was mums at home or dads out of work but very few young lads, they would rather chase girls.

Snooker is china bound the tv companies are giving it one last go but unless viewing figures improve drastically then its difficult to make the argument for them
Snooker once had a season but now Hearn has it wall to wall with tournaments that are worthless and overkill is a worry.
Anyway hope I am wrong.
By the way I do agree with your point about Reardon.
By:
ZenMaster
When: 22 Jan 17 18:31
Snooker is a unique game as you know Moondan, but one factor which is overlooked or taken for granted is how a snooker player is under the spotlight and how a shy/self conscious character may suffer.

It is a game where all eyes are on you for quite lengthy periods of time, just you with a crowd looking down and judging everything you do. Most individual sports alternate strike, golf, darts, tennis, squash etc. The crowd's interest diverts away quite quickly from one player to another but in snooker the players are under pressure and focus for long periods of time as they display their craft/art.

It takes a certain character to cope with this spotlight and expectation.  The Chinese culturally are quite introverted and shy in front of crowds, so although they will produce technically proficient players, the question is how many of those will be confident enough in front of a crowd to really shine.
By:
moondan
When: 22 Jan 17 19:19
Zen

I think you have hit the nail on the head with the chinese.  I keep hearing how they will take over the game but snooker has been big in china for at least 30 years and Ding seems to confirm your view.
For quite a while I thought Ding may be controlled if you understand what I mean and he did what he was told but maybe you are totally right, not that makes me feel any better, he has cost me a fortune.Cry

Shame Perry has collapsed,  another costly enterprise for me.
By:
gentlemanjohn
When: 22 Jan 17 19:31
There was definitely too much hype around the chinese from the likes of davis and parrot, but look at it another way: imagine a group of 14 or 15 year old british kids having to decamp to china in order to try and make it in the pro ranks? How do you think they'd fare, no matter how talented some of them were? Would they all make an instant breakthrough? I seriusly doubt it.

If it gets to the stage, and it surely will, where chinese players can feasibly stay at home and still play on the full tour, then i think we'll see more coming through. Might take a few years though.

Moondan, you lost on ding last year even though he was availbe to back at 40s and beyond on here, and Perry who started the week around 100 or thereabouts. Is it around time, do you thin, you thought about trying to master the modern art of trading Wink
By:
gentlemanjohn
When: 22 Jan 17 19:34
Plus, i dont buy the shyness/introvert angle for one second. Being withdrawn and introverted didn't prevent Davis or Hendry from being 2 of the 3 best players of all time.
By:
Platini
When: 22 Jan 17 20:00
Ding is just very average. Gotta be someone better than him from China.
By:
gentlemanjohn
When: 22 Jan 17 20:09
If Liang had a safety game, he'd be comfortably ahead of Ding. Can't see him every developing one though
By:
moondan
When: 22 Jan 17 20:11
Gentlemen,

I only got a computer about 14 years ago for my kids when they left primary and though they have tried to help me with its mystery's they  tell me I am too thick and they are right.

I spent my whole working life doing maths in my head and on paper and have no time for the modern ways. I do cover my bets if possible if I think its worthwhile.
I sometimes wish that Betfair was around in 62 but too old and too thick to take advantage now but I do understand where you are coming from.

I have never thought about Davis or Hendry being introverted just dedicated and single minded but perhaps you are right.
By:
gentlemanjohn
When: 22 Jan 17 22:01
Ha no worries moondan, i'm a traditionalist in many ways myself but i know i'd be totally lost without the exchanges and the myriad ways it allows you to cover bets. Only problem is its often too tempting to start shifting positions when the sensible thing is jsut to leave well enough alone and let your bet play out. I too wish they had been around 10-20 years sooner....a decade of pay packets might have been saved from my grateful local independent!!

As for introverted snooker players, i'm not actually convinced there's any major correlation between personality and career achievement. I was merely picking up on a point zen made above which did not make sense to me. But as a generalisation, it does seem to me that players like Davis or Hendry (and i'd probably add Ronnie to that list) who were not outgoing characters were able to flourish while if you compiled a list of the game's under-achievers, i bet it would be top heavy with flamboyant, in your face characters. That's all really.
By:
ZenMaster
When: 22 Jan 17 23:10
You are right john that Davis was very shy as a teenager, and Hendry is more than likely an introvert. It is a game full of introverts and probably the chosen sport for the introvert as you can practice alone with limited social interaction. Introverts excel at the game.

Yet the introvert then has to somehow perform in front of 2,000 people and the cameras. It's a unique game and the introvert somehow has to hold himself together under the spotlight. For every introvert that can do this, there are thousands that would fold under that pressure.

As i have said before, on the practice table there is very little between most of the players, it's about producing it when you are under pressure and feeling self-conscious.
Davis and Hendry proved their metal, let's see if the Chinese introverts can produce the same metal.
By:
ZenMaster
When: 22 Jan 17 23:13
By the way, many players who are in your face characters are actually in character, and are natural introverts putting on a mask.
This could be one for the psychological researchers.
By:
gentlemanjohn
When: 23 Jan 17 12:01
Zen, i agree with yoru last post certainly. Wouldn't surprise me if Alex was a true introvert at heart, he was certainly a shy and awkward teenager anyway. What kind of person would he have been without drink? Impossible to know i suppose...

However, i remain to be convinced there's much in this introverted angle. I think there are other reasons why chinese players might be struggling to make the breakthrough in greater numbers, including cultural as i outlined above. Maybe the youth coaching set-up over there isn't up to scratch as most of these guys seem easy pickings for the hardened match players they encounter when they hit the UK. I dont know to be honest.

Anyway, for what it's worth, here's my amateur cod psychology theory on introversion and sporting success. I think being shy and retiring can be a major impediment in team sports where a timid guy is more likely to leave the fireworks to more confident or assertive team-mates. How many talented soccer players fail to fulfil their potential because they were unable to assert themselves, found it too easy to retreat to the comfort of the pack and leave others to finish the job? Not for nothing is the out and out goalscorer the hardest breed of all to find in football. Counter-intuitively, it is not human nature to push ourselves forward for those glory roles, but essentially to want the safe, comfortable existence of the pack mentality.

Conversely, the guy playing on his own does not have that option. He knows nobody else is going to do the job for him and perhaps that helps him to be more single-minded and determined in pursuit of hsi goal. Introverted people are very independent minded, thus eminently suited for the demands of an individual sport. If they have the talent and have put the work in, like a davis or a hendry, there is no reason why they should suffer lack of confidence or belief on the biggest stages. In fact, i think the opposite is more likely to hold true if anything.

On a practical level, an introvert would be very unlikely to be found tweeting from his dressing room during the interval of a world championship game. In fact, the true introvert would have no business being on that stupid medium in the first place!
By:
ZenMaster
When: 23 Jan 17 12:30
Interesting john, but do the Chinese truly feel independent when playing in a match? Does Ding feel the weight of China on his shoulders because he is Chinese and part of 'team China" and will this effect every other Chinese player. Perhaps it's the combination of introvert and pressure of representing China that is tougher to handle than truly independent players like the ageing British players?

I also have a doubt the individual decision making of the Chinese players, culturally they follow orders to fine detail. Can they problem solve by themselves, under the spotlight with confidence without that infrastructure they are culturally accustomed to?

Matchplay requires confidence of commitment. Do they truly believe in their decision making?
By:
moondan
When: 23 Jan 17 13:12
Some deep thinking here.

The only thing I would add is that I do believe Hendry and Davis are more selfish than most and hated losing more than anyone else.

Its very obvious to me that Davis hates giving Stephen any credit and never misses a chance to undermine what Stephen achieved.
It seems quite lost on Davis that Hendry was clearing the table probably better than anyone ever has and on more difficult conditions and it is still the Hendry standard.
If you listen to Davis and his Parrot they would have you believe the game has improved but its very difficult to believe when you look at Hendrys overall performances. 7 centuries in his 10-4 victory in the final of the uk in 94 a feat that nobody has come close to.

Re China where Hendry spends so much of his time now promoting the grass roots there the game will just get bigger and bigger and even today millions more play snooker than in the uk.
We are snookers spiritual home but in a few years China will be the powerhouse.
By:
crepello
When: 23 Jan 17 16:47
ZenMaster    23 Jan 17 13:30 

I also have a doubt the individual decision making of the Chinese players, culturally they follow orders to fine detail. Can they problem solve by themselves, under the spotlight with confidence without that infrastructure they are culturally accustomed to?

If I may interject into your interesting discussion, I agree with the above comment by Zenmaster ....

The Chinese love to copy but can they let whatever talent they have come to the surface?

Surely we should have had more players from China by now - the present few are not up to it even against our old timers ...

That said, we really need some new UK blood and I cannot see where it is coming from - hopes for Judd are fading ......
By:
moondan
When: 23 Jan 17 18:32
I must come to the defence of Ding even after falling victim to some of his lac lustre performances and very tempted to come to conclusions that are unprintable.
Funnily I had much the same disappointments with Ronnie back in the 90s where you wondered where his game had gone at times.

I think Ding has a game that is far more sophisticated than Liang though less watchable but its forgotten that him and Hendry are the only players that have won 5        in a season.
I think Ding is a genuine victim of what Zen and GentlemenJohn are exploring along with crepello, if others suffer the same it seems to me they are well hidden.
Regarding the lack of chinese players coming through, Hendry says its unbelievable the standard of some, perhaps there is only so many places on the tour and perhaps there is some protectionism at work even if none can be admitted.
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