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moondan
11 Jan 15 09:23
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Date Joined: 18 Nov 10
| Topic/replies: 3,659 | Blogger: moondan's blog
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Report moondan January 11, 2015 9:38 AM GMT
Angel,  welcome to the new year.

I know you think you are a heavenly creature and there is nought wrong with that but all to often, you are immersed in cloud cuckoo land but lets hope in the second half of the season we can help you understand the game betterLaughLaugh
Report Angel Gabrial January 11, 2015 10:24 AM GMT
Hello moondan, happy new year to you. I hope that you have embraced 2015 and moved on from 1978?

I am sure that it will be an all guns blazing encounter from these two artisans of the game, because as you keep saying these modern players just can not read the pace of the table like Doug Mountjoy could. If Alan McManus was plying he would be......hold on a minute he is still playing!!Laugh
Report moondan January 11, 2015 11:36 AM GMT
Angel

Some great games to be had here in what is my second fav' tournament only to the worlds.

I have had no chance to come to any conclusions as yet because been too busy and it will only be after this afternoon that I will have cleared my commitments and get down to some serious consideration.
Not going to go too mad with the gambling but my target is to end £200 up by the end of the week.

I am risking £20 on Murphy in the opener, 2.34 is not great but think a good few second favs will win but we will see.
Catch you later.   Who is your outright winner?
Report moondan January 11, 2015 11:47 AM GMT
Meant to say I have backed Ding outright but more interested in dabbling in the other matches.
Report pandora1963 January 11, 2015 11:55 AM GMT
cant see him losing to walden purely because walden usually freezes when he plays him
Report moondan January 12, 2015 9:55 AM GMT
Pandora,

I think most freeze when they play Ronnie although they won't admit it.
Its strange really because he is giving more chances than he once did but they are bottling it.
Re Walden, he is without doubt an underachiever but the ability is there.

Most of what I say is to incite a row with AngelDevilCoolCoolGrinGrinGrin
Report moondan January 12, 2015 10:07 AM GMT
Its hard to oppose the 2 favs today even given their obvious weaknesses so will nick a few quid on both ( I HOPE )

Angel hope you were not sent to the hell of poverty after yesterdays results.

Stick with me lad, you know it makes economic sense.HappyHappy
Report gentlemanjohn January 12, 2015 11:22 AM GMT
Good start with murph moondan, i actually thought he had an evens chance at worst yesterday and steamed in accordingly, alas ducked out in deciding frame for a very tiny profit, fearing the worst. So it goes in this infernal betting game....

This week i believe we will have another Ronnie-Trump final, they are the in-form players and the ones you trust to be consistent. I'm on judd outright but ronnie is very backable too as - famous last words - he's as good as a virtual shoe-in to reach the semi-final and, at that point, he's odds on. He's one shy of Hendry's six titles, thats a very powerful motivation to have. It doesnt always work out like that but, unlike the uk champs, these players are good enough to command ronnie's respect and attention. He wont slip up

Ppower are offering 13/8 over 9.5 total frames Robbo vs Milkins. Looks a price worth getting stuck into to me
Report moondan January 12, 2015 12:36 PM GMT
Gentlemenjohn,

I had to watch recordings into the early hours as I had to attend a family diamond wedding party and excuses would not have been believed especially as snooker was onCry

I think it was a blessing as I would have covered like you in the final frame.

Todays matches look done and dusted but over the years its paid me to go with the value so as ridiculous as it sounds I am just backing Milkins for a £5 @ 4.5 with no great hopes of collecting but Robbo at 1.25 is the stuff of insanity and if Milkins plays anywhere near his top game then he is the value.
Trump is tempting at 1.45 and I hope he gets his act together but a bet in running is the way I will go there.
My big betting days are over and a bit of fun trying to reach my target is enjoyable enough for me.
Anyway good luck and keep us informed it just adds to the enjoyment.
Report gentlemanjohn January 12, 2015 2:01 PM GMT
A family gathering was my excuse too moondan, i always - i mean ALWAYS - have a lay off in running on all bets but was on the go yesterday and took eye off the ball. Just as well our cat ran off a few months back, would have been doing a jonny wilkinson on him when i got home last night!

Good luck with milkins, robbo has looked very ordinary since a strong start to the season so not a bad shout to oppose i think
Report pandora1963 January 12, 2015 2:40 PM GMT
i saw robbo lose to dott...from 5-1 down to 5-5 he was abslutely faultless then had a bit of bad luck in the final frame....when robbo is on he is probably the best player out there bar ronnie
Report moondan January 13, 2015 12:35 PM GMT
So glad yesterdays done, its been a long time since I sat through such a boring match as Robbo and Milkins dished up.

I had expected Robbo to out do Matthew Stevens in the wander around the table bit, checking out what needs no checking and trying to live up to the silly claims of Pinky and Ginger that he has become a great safety player but with the boredom came the even more shocking misses that added nothing of interest.

Anyway enough of that and lets concentrate on a true great and not these interim pretenders Like Robbo and Trump who will never be talked of in the same breath as Hendry who schooled to almost his level, O'sullivan Higgins and Williams.

I will enjoy watching todays match because it will not be as easy for Ronnie as some might think.
Having watched the touch players up to now struggle it could just be that the weather will have its say and the rain is effecting the speed of the table and also kicks both obvious and those that are not will help the more workman like player.

In short perhaps its best for Ronnie's fanboys to invest in a few bog rolls rather than a pack of kleenex as a 6-2 or 6-3 result for Walden is more likely and I see tears aplenty.
Walden is no slouch and although not in Ronnies class it has to be taken into account the man is missing far more than he once did and it says much about the true class of todays player that they have not made him pay in the way a nineties player would have punished him.

7.1 for Walden is a belated christmas present and 1.15 for Ronnie is nothing but fools gold.
You have been warnedLaughLaugh
Report gentlemanjohn January 13, 2015 1:04 PM GMT
ROS outright price has fallen more than half a point and he's not even hit a shot yet, that's the ronnie factor for you! I dont think you can have a cut at robbo or trump moondan and then try to big up walden, rickys not even anywhere near their league. I considered taking him with a 3.5 start but not going to bother as ronnie could steamroll him just as easily
Report TheChaser January 13, 2015 1:52 PM GMT
on ronnie 2-3.5

walden is shocking , misses everything
Report TheChaser January 13, 2015 1:52 PM GMT
-2.5 at 1.6
Report moondan January 13, 2015 6:04 PM GMT
Gentlemenjohn

In my eyes Trump and Robbo are a level below the big four of the 90s in just about every department except possibly the single ball pot.
Its not that I am bigging up Walden who I agree is not in their league but they are so in and out along with Ronnie that taking short odds about their chances is not sensible against whoever they play.
For the most part Ronnie seems survive even though he is generally weaker and making mistakes that he himself is shocked to be surviving.

I have backed Ding to win me a few hundred and now Fu is in the quarters its not impossible to have an all eastern final.

As I said earlier the table and balls are playing heavier and kicks are having a say so for me nothing is a given.
I think you have been around the game long enough to agree with that.

Hard one to call tonight because of that and although Carter is a class above Hawkins his head has not been in a nice place for a while but I am tempted by his bigger price but perhaps the one who gets the fewest kicks will win.
After 3 matches I am a miserable £16 in front so perhaps 6 on Carter and the rest on Ding tomorrow is the way forward but running out of matches to get to my 200 target.
I am not counting my outright on Ding.
Report moondan January 14, 2015 10:21 AM GMT
Angel,

Where are you?  you add a little life to the place so hope all is well.
Report gentlemanjohn January 14, 2015 12:21 PM GMT
Moondan, i am watching and playing - though less said bout the latter the better - a long time, maybe not as long as others here, but i have no insight to offer as regards table conditions or otherwise. I tend to listen for the players comments after matches, though this generation, bar ronnie and allen and one or two others, seem too scared of biting the hand that feeds to offer any worthwhile opinions. However, if you suggest that the tables and balls are playing heavier, then i'd assume that should lead to less kicks and bad contacts? As i understand its the lighter modern balls that promote kicks so if playingn heavier as you suggest - although why i havent a clue - it should reduce it. So my limited understanding goes anyway.

Of course i agree about trump and robbo. Though i'm prepared to give trump a bit of leeway due to age and he's come on a bit this year, but is still someway short of what's required to become a great. Robbo is tricky. Obviously a great century compiler and very fluent in top gear, but there's something there not quite right imo. Won the softest world title ever and is at an age when he needs to start winning big tournaments consistently to get to next level. Have my doubts about him doing so.

Ding-Allen double maybe today to get closer to the target. Lots fancying higgins later but dont think so myself. And yes, we need Angel here to keep you on the straight and narrow.
Report jed.davison January 14, 2015 1:25 PM GMT
At least 3/4 of kicks come about purely and simply because the player does not hit the ball properly. Hitting down on the ball, the cue ball leaves the bed.
Report moondan January 14, 2015 2:19 PM GMT
Gentlemenjohn,

Jed is another that keeps me in line but less so recently but I take it all in good heart and my opinion is not worth more than anothers.

Just watched Higgins throw back the years and was Hendrylike in those first 2 frames.

The class of 92 in snooker will never be bettered, Ronnie, Mark and John but they did have the advantage of Hendry setting the standard and tables that were much stricter to keep your feet on the ground.
I keep saying that we are all products of the garden we grow in and the standard demanded.

Todays tables have allowed lesser players to shine and thats my biggest gripe.

Trump will only get better when he matures and he listens to better players and understands that far from being great he is under achieving.

Robbo did a hundred plus centuries on tables that have been set up in the softest way that were very similar to Hearns weekly invitation comp The Premier League that he disbanded when he took over snooker.
Ronnie did 5 centuries one evening and was asked in the post match interview if he felt proud ?   Hearn was very displeased when he told the interviewer "no the pockets are like buckets"
This table looks very soft and am surprised more big breaks are not flying in.

In my opinion the quality of snooker was much greater throughout the nineties up until 2002 but then super fine cloths really changed the game and standard but not for the better.
Report gentlemanjohn January 14, 2015 2:37 PM GMT
Yes moondan, i agree with you for the most part, its Angel you have yet to convince. But if we accept the current generation doesnt measure up to the 90s, or maybe even the 80s, then the question is why? Because they have all the advantages - easier tables, better facilities via all the new academies with ready available coaches and practice partners, more tournaments to play in, the benefit of statistics, video analysis etc

Snooker should have pushed on since the 90s but it hasnt. Are you suggesting the thinner cloths actually lowered the standard rather than raised it? That doesnt seem logical to my mind
Report moondan January 14, 2015 3:04 PM GMT
Gentlemenjohn,

The balls have progressively entered the pockets easier in the past 10 years and require less accuracy because of the slide factor.

Many thousands of pounds have been spent on construction and cloth development and none of that was done to make the game harder.
If the degree of difficulty is eased then it must follow that more can reach the higher breaks.
That in itself makes it more difficult to dominate.

I think we are going to see the winner tonight, Ding will destroy this table and tournament Cool
Report jed.davison January 15, 2015 12:29 AM GMT
Ding is a joker.
Report moondan January 15, 2015 10:10 AM GMT
I would put it a little stronger than that Jed.

I am not a guy that thinks the worst every time I lose but when I think of China and have a bet it does cross my mind that Gambling, Control, to gangland and human rights issues, play a huge part in everyday life in a vast country.
Its thought by those that have an idea that more money is wagered on snooker (second only to horse racing)than all sports events in the united kingdom put together in a single competition like the Masters.

Its difficult to work out some shot selections and even more difficult to work out some misses from probably a player who is in the top 5 greats of all time.

In some competitions he plays like a snooker god without a care in the world, in others like a player under the cosh----and perhaps he is.

Certainly World snooker would never dare upset the real power in snooker.
Report gentlemanjohn January 15, 2015 1:15 PM GMT
Jeez that's a fair big leap of the imagination you're taking there moondan. Of course nothing should surprise us when it comes to snooker and what goes on in the netherworld...but if ding was in the clutches of some shadowy triad thing i'm certain there'd be some sort of stink coming from it by now. Granted, it's fairly clear there's been something up with him this season, looks well out of sorts and given how sullen and odd he's looked since coming to the UK, that's fairly saying something.

What could world snooker do anyway if there was somethign dodgy about it? And is ding really among the "top 5 greats of all time"? Thats actually the most contentious thing you've written. Wouldnt be anywhere near my top 10
Report DirkDiggler January 15, 2015 4:03 PM GMT
Bath must be overflowing by now...
Report moondan January 15, 2015 6:15 PM GMT
Gentlemenjohn,

Perhaps your right but some of his misses do need some explanation.

Ronnie marches on and I am down to my last £30 in my kitty for this tournament and I won't exceed it so its all going on Robbo tonight but no real confidence.

Hope you are doing better than me.CryCryCry
Report gentlemanjohn January 16, 2015 11:15 AM GMT
I'd never say never about anything moondan, didnt Peter Francisco fix a game at the worlds a couple of decades back? But there are so many mickey mouse tournaments nowadays, i'd say its extremely unlikely players would risk it in high profile tournaments and on live tv. Would any of them be stupid enough to try it? Well, maybe but i'd need to see hard evidence before believing it. The only thing in its favour would be betfair liquidity, which is reasonably strong this week, but any shadowy figures betting on ding wouldnt be using exchanges anyway, so I'd discount that.

Robbo looked good last night, the s/f with ronnie is the best match-up we've had since the world final, i think ronnie wins but won't have an interest. Not been a lucrative tourney betting wise. If i'd gone with my gut and lobbed a large wedge on ronnie pre-tournament i'd have layed it off at odds-on by now - could even have layed off for profit before ronnie potted a ball - but I talked myself out of that and put a smaller amount on Trump instead. Well, that lasted long!

Today i like Murphy price and Allen-Perry over 9.5 total frames at odds against.
Report moondan January 16, 2015 12:39 PM GMT
Gentlemenjohn.

Robbo was impressive last night he seemed to have upped his pace and a little less grandstanding playing  more his natural game will have caught Ronnie's attention in a way that he will not like.
I am adamant Ronnie's game is not as strong as it once was no matter his results and the fact that the snooker jungle is a far less dangerous place since Hendry's retirement and Williams and Higgins decline has meant fewer sleepless nights for Ronnie.
Hendry always maintained that the way to beat him was to put pressure on him and sadly post the big four the others have been left wanting.

Robbo made my kitty look a bit healthier and the £42 is going on Allen and any returns will all be put on Robbo who's price for the title will hopefully not shrink too much post this afternoons result he is 4.1 at present.
I won't make my 200 target but it would return approximately 240 including my starting stake.
I cannot see risking anything on the other matches much value.
I did have a sporting fiver on @ 23 at the start so a decent chance of having 2 in the final.
Anyway appreciate your thoughts.
Report moondan January 16, 2015 3:15 PM GMT
Gentlemanjohn

It was Allen that was 23.0

Unless Allen bucks his ideas up then I will have had my last bet in the Masters this year its dire stuff.
The only comfort is they both look out of it.

This table seems to be playing tighter than yesterday.

Anyway good luck tonight.
Report moondan January 16, 2015 5:47 PM GMT
Its a funny old gameShocked

I remember some years ago and I think it was in this tournament when Maguire brought his grandad down with all the family and could not pot a ball and such was the effect it had on him he was never quite the same player since.

Allen brought his wife and mates over and they arrived this morning to see him perform.
Why do they do it? surely its a distraction and an added pressure just when you don't need it.
Anyway I will now have a financial interest in both semi's tomorrow but that was in doubt big time all afternoon.
Hope Murphy does it for you tonight, I have had my last bet in this and whatever, I will enjoy the matches.

Re gambling, it goes on and in china its not policed but the rewards are huge when you know the right people. A dark suit can make millions if he knows the result, somewhere down the line the truth will emerge.
Report gentlemanjohn January 16, 2015 11:46 PM GMT
You're doing ok moondan, robbo has a chance against ronnie and i wouldnt rule out Allen beating Murphy despite todays horror show. Thought Maguire folded tamely enough in the end, Allen is made of sterner stuff and Murph will give him chances. Couldnt see him winning the final, but thats another days work

Good point about the tables, but hasnt that been noticeable most of the year? The pockets are definitely tightened up, no more balls hitting the rail 4 inches from the pocket and dropping in and stuff like that. I figured this was inevitable after hearing Steve mr snooker Davis cough and splutter his way through the World Champs at some of the pots that were dropping. It was a joke and they had to do something about it to retain some credibility

Anyway today puts me in slight profit for week and gonna sit on it. Will see what the over 9.5s are like price wise, fancy 2 more close games so will look at a double.

Ronnie will be tested for first time in ages tomorrow, a real true test..looking forward to seeing how he copes
Report gentlemanjohn January 16, 2015 11:58 PM GMT
Re: the family thing. Never thought much bout that angle but could be somethign in it. Then again vicky is always there watching selby, the bbc cameras always like to remind us trumps entire family is in the arena after every second shot. I'm sure lots of other players have family there, either the beeb dont know them or dennis taylor has nothing patronising to say about them. Remember Allens daughter in the front row at the crucible when he won first round match a couple of years ago...didn't seem to bother him that day

Dunno really, i'd buy the chinese gambling theory before his family ruining maguires game. Maguire has anger issues, thats his problem i'd say
Report DirkDiggler January 17, 2015 5:22 PM GMT
Maguire has anger issues, thats his problem i'd say


Bingo, he'd lost that match at 2-0 up.
Report moondan January 17, 2015 6:10 PM GMT
Genntlemenjohn.

People who do not know me would think I have got it in for Ronnie but nothing could be further from the truth.
I think like everyone he is the most talented but have never put him ahead of Hendry as a snooker player. Hendry was clinical in the extreme and for me they are both the best of their styles and I have been to many of their matches and the place was always electric.

As a very long time fan of the game and had a cue in my hand it annoys me when some fans do not appreciate that conditions have played the major part in improved play and it is extremely unfair to compare players from different era's, even those that played on cloths from just a few seasons ago.
I was a big fan of Davis the player but for me he is a buffoon along with Parrot when commentating. It is such a pity they were not doing that when Hendry was in his pomp.
I cannot imagine what the pair would have been like if they had witnessed Hendry's seven centuries in the uk final against a very competitive crafty ken who was defeated 10-5, or the liverpool challenge final against Ronnie where they both played snooker that is the best ever seen and Hendry won the decider with a 147, what the man must really think having to listen to their nonsense. Its not just insulting to Hendry but to the game itself.

I am just wondering how soon it will be before they say that Robbo is the best ever, it was just 2 seasons ago it was John Higgins, it really is kids stuff and snooker does not have a kids audience.

I have watched Ronnie win his last 2 world titles coming through the most kind draws imaginable and when he has met a player, that player has suffered severe bad luck or just not brought his game.

This talk that Ronnie will win more world titles is wishful thinking and the rest of the field watched his mistakes that have been plentyful for at least 4-5 seasons being properly punished it will also have an effect.

Do not get me wrong, they will never be in his class and most certainly they will never be in Hendry's either.
If Hendry in his pomp played on these tables all records would have been totally out of reach.

Anyway hope you did alright.

I stick strictly to my system and will not exceed my limits so hope to god Murphy does not take this title because he could.

I am more into horses and football but should really give up the latter because the draw always kills me.
Report moondan January 17, 2015 6:32 PM GMT
Did me to say re Maguire


It meant so much to him to have his beloved Grandad present for the semi's but it proved too much.
When Steven started to show promise he knocked down the walls in the semi detached and installed a full size table to help his grandson become professional and Steven just wanted to reward that kindness.
When he won his quarter final he sent for them all,  very confident he would be in the final the next day.
He could not pot a ball and while you may be right, what is a fact, his game and career nosedived and this was the guy that beat Ronnie in the uk final who said he thought Maguire could rule the game for years.

I have often said that whatever goes on inside your head is soon tranferred to your cue.
Report jed.davison January 17, 2015 9:15 PM GMT
If Hendry in his pomp played on these tables all records would have been totally out of reach.

spot on. he would win every single tournament, ronnie or no ronnie.
Report gentlemanjohn January 18, 2015 4:46 PM GMT
Cracking posts moondan, find it hard to dispute much of what you say. Parrott was nearly going into paroxysms over robbo for winning 2 out of the 3 last frames, god knows what he'll be saying if he manages to come back and win the thing which we all know is still possible. He'll have exhausted his stock of superlatives before that.

I've given up having a strong opinion on the ronnie v hendry question, but have to admit you make a compelling case for hendry. I've watched a lot - too much - of snooker this year and i could nearly count the number of high quality matches i've seen on the fingers of one hand. Murphy and Maguire was decent but spoiled by the latter's rather meek capitulation in the end.

One small thing though, you talk about the conditions being responsible for play improving, yet above i think you blamed the conditions for players missing more shots. Maybe a slight contradiction there? But I take the point about hendry thriving under today's conditions. I think he didn't have great cue power, at least compared to the likes of Jimmy or williams, so it's fair to assume the faster tables would be greatly to his advantage.

I think ronnie called it himself before the semi-final, he doesnt play enough these days and he's at an age where he has to be in decline so he's always going to be vulnerable against a player coming with no fear and in form. Still if he's quiet till end of the season, has a decent world champs draw and a tasty price, i have a feeling i'll be lumping on! Tournament will still revolve around him imo

That's a good story about Maguire, but from what i've read, he always had a suspect temperament, even as an amateur. I know Terry Griffiths was on board with him at one stage, but that may have ended years ago. I am certain one of the reasons why this generation of players doesnt measure up is because they dont work on that aspect of their game and are weak mentally. Or if they do, you don't hear about it apart from Ronnie
Report moondan January 19, 2015 4:51 PM GMT
Jed, always said you know your stuff.

Have you any idea where Angel is?  hope he is fine, miss our friendly banter.
Report moondan January 19, 2015 5:34 PM GMT
Gentlemanjohn.

I should have known but enjoyed Murphy's victory and while it cost me I was pleased Robbo did not win and played so badly.

I just think the guy is getting a ahead of himself saying that the only player that could teach him anything was Ronnie, plenty of guys do some things better than him and are worth watching and learning from.
9 ranking titles does not make you a great and his game is far too flaky to ever become one is my opinion and that match just confirmed that opinion along with far too many others that he has played since his world title.
I just think these players are listening far too much to the two escapee's from the muppet program who continually bring the game down to playground level with their childish, ridiculous observations.
The game, and past players deserve much better.

Greats are few and far between and its worth noting that it still seems to be the same old faces occupying the top 32.

It always annoys me when the myth is perpetuated that in the 80s and 90s there was always a cushy first round, if they bothered to check, shocks were plentiful and my pocket was hit many times.

I cannot imagine me saying that players were missing shots because the tables are so easy.

I have said that the degree of difficulty in playing the table has lessened and because of that more players are likely to become tournament winners but should a player like Hendry that had immense bottle and skill with clinical accuracy they could well dominate and we both know that if Ronnie had posessed even half of Hendrys mental strength he would have dominated and probably won many more titles.
Unfortunately Robertson and Trump are never many matches away from a collapse and thats th sad truth.
Anyway I have enjoyed your comments and I think we are pretty like minded.

My football kitty had a real boost when I had a decent bet on Arsenal and while it was not a winning weekend I had no thoughts of searching for a rope.
Grin
Report moondan January 19, 2015 5:48 PM GMT
The annoncement that the worlds is safe in Sheffield until 2017 sends shivers down my spine and its a sure bet that it will be sold to the higfhest bidder after that.

I cringed when the barrow boy said he was so pleased that after some hard bargaining he had managed to get the extra 2 years off Sheffield council.

Sheffield council would gladly sign the next hundred years away never mind 2 years and I have said it many times-- trust Hearn at your peril.
He has no loyalty to snooker and under his charge it will lose much of the integrity that it has remaing.
He instructs the muppets and tolerates no objections.
Report jed.davison January 19, 2015 6:12 PM GMT
I don't know where Angel is moondan, although I am pretty sure I have seen him post elsewhere in the last couple of weeks.
Report jed.davison January 19, 2015 6:16 PM GMT
Just done some research - he may have been banned, probably only for a month I would think, after posting something on a thread related to Ched Evans on the football forum a little while ago. Not sure though, one would hope it was that rather than anything sinister, always found him to be a good lad even if we don't always agree.
Report moondan January 21, 2015 12:05 PM GMT
Jed, hope so.

Regarding disagreeing, can you imagine a forum where everyone said yes.
I think everyone has an opinion and its worth as much as anyone's, the results and the record books are the only facts.

I have been banned a couple of times for a month and it doesn't take much. I was just saying that a certain guy who is always on ruk insulting everyone who does not study times of races as being less intelligent than the few that do. The fact that he seems to know all the answers before the race but would starve if he had to make a living from his selections (which is quite lost on him )
It takes all sorts but when you pay for a service it hardly seems a good business move to have an enployee insult those that pay his wages.

Anyway hope its just a ban and all is well with Angel.
Report gentlemanjohn January 21, 2015 10:21 PM GMT
Moondan, my bad...i had it in my head that you attributed players missing shots because the tables were easier. I think the point was that players were becoming careless and sloppy with too much margin for error which, to be honest, seemed kind of plausible enough to me. But anyway i know you didnt say that so sorry for suggesting you did!

Of all the players who came through over the last decade Murphy is the one i'd be most disappointed in, thought he had the all round game to go with his brilliant potting ability or that he'd develop it, especially after winning the world champs,,but he never did really. 9 ranking titles, 3 major titles is nothing for a player of his talent, fair play to him if he can go forward now and win another 2 or 3 world titles but i wouldnt be putting money on him to do it

I was working on the theory that Angel finally had seen the light after witnessing so much dross this season and was just working up the courage to acknowledge the error of his ways....but now that jed mentions it a ban seems more likely! Am certain he'll be back fortwith and rattling your cage again
Report gentlemanjohn January 21, 2015 10:26 PM GMT
As regards sheffield let me play devils advocate for a second. While i bow to no man in my love of the crucible, and i dearly hope it stays there for the next thousand years, look at it in commercial terms and the potential that is being lost in terms of crowds and revenue. I dont like or trust hearn much either but can i blame him if he was devising ways of increasing the appeal of the blue riband event? No is the honest answer to that. The crowds at the masters looked very impressive, sell outs nearly every day it seemed like, so there must be some potential there that isnt being tapped for the world champs.

It does pain me to say it but the world moves on and i dont think the crucible, in its current format, can last forever
Report moondan January 22, 2015 9:36 AM GMT
Gentlemanjohn.

I understand where you are coming from but not sure that it matters that much whether a venue holds a thousand or two thousand in the scheme of things regarding the income of the event.
Television revenue completely buries that aspect and we are talking of a worldwuide audience.

I hope Hearn understands that and is not led by his ego. Should he not be it would be a first.

I don't think many players or much of the business world like Hearn or trust him and certainly the players should never trust Davis who is Hearns inside man and it was Davis that swayed so many players to vote for Hearn against many players better judgement who wanted the other group.
I think Hearn won by the odd vote which for me is a tragedy.
I have no doubt had Hearn lost, the game would have more meaningful tournaments and its integrity would have been safe.
From tournament to tournament tables are manipulated to what they can get away with.

Agree with you about Murphy who won us all over with his demolition of the table in his Worlds victory but alas he then tried to become a safety player and searched out players such as Ray Reardon when in fact he should have perfected his own brand of snooker the way Hendry did.
It makes me laugh when folks talk of attacking players and never mention Hendry because no player before or since has been as attacking as him and players like Jimmy white should understand that.
Report moondan January 22, 2015 10:00 AM GMT
Gentlmanjohn,

The World Championships is special because of where it is played and the pressure that puts on players and that is what needs to be protected it is what its all about.
I hope the fans and players understand that the old saying " he knows the price of everything but the value of nothing" could easily be applied to Hearn.

Snooker was built on tradition and in those 80s and 90s days its players were as big as pop stars and it was run by ex players and the reason why it suffered so much in the 2000s was because of the explosion of choice and the loss of tobacco revenue and it never rains when it pours the general collapse and world recession.
It had little to do with bad management.
Report jed.davison January 22, 2015 1:12 PM GMT
I'm sorry moondan but that's the not the first time you've made that claim, so I'm going to have to pull you up on it again.

The game was run shambolically for decades - that is a documented, widely acknowledged fact. Its televsion heyday came about in spite of, not because of, its managament.

And I will say again that whatever your views on Barry Hearn, and whatever your opinion of table conditions, the fact remains that snooker right now is as popular as it can expect to be, it has expanded exponentially its International appeal, and the professionals can earn some proper money after years of having a handful of tournaments to compete for.

Just to let you know - I have no love for, or hatred of, Barry Hearn. He is what he is, and it seems to work for him. I will tell you however, that I play cricket once a season at a ground near his home, and on which he has lavished a serious amount of money - his own money, for no personal gain whatsoever. All the people know him, and like - perhaps as far as love - him. Because of my obsession with snooker and partly because I am interested, perhaps because of our chats on here to some degree, in how he is perceived, I did go out of my way to canvass a few opinions on him. Those opinions - from people who do not do business with him, but pleasure - are uniformly positive.
Report gentlemanjohn January 22, 2015 1:38 PM GMT
Like i said moondan, i was really only playing devils advocate, trying to see it from hearns perspective. I truly hope it stays at the crucible forever, have only made 2 visits there over the years and hope to make a few more before i shuffle off this mortal coil. But i will say this, yes attendances arent the main revenue stream but when you consider they rake in over a million per year in ticket sales, do you think hearn would sniff at the prospect of maybe doubling that at a bigger venue?

Also, i'm not much of a darts fan, but wasnt the previous venue of the world champs held equally sacred before they moved to the ally pally? I'm fairly certain too that if you canvassed the current pros - privately - a fair percentage of them would favour a switch from the crucible as long as that didn't imply another trip to china!

And I have to side with jed here. I have hugely fond memories of the 80s, but you cant put that down to the fact ex-players were running it. Snooker was lucky, it had a ready-made cast of characters no soap opera writers could dream up, and hungry television companies who had hours of increased broadcast time to fill. It was a match made in heaven. Like jed, i'd venture that success was despite not due to the old fogeys who ran the game. Remember, they had years of warning before the tobacco money ran out, yet what alternative revenue streams did they pursue? Sweet fannie adams to tell the truth.

As for the players themselves, i'd only have limited sympathy. For years they moaned and griped about the WPBSA, but when the chances came for a shake-up, they'd wimp out and just vote the baxtards back in again. Cowards really the lot of them.

Personally i cant warm to hearn, and davis even less so, but he's not the devil incarnate either. What i'd love to know is has anyone asked the crucible or sheffield city council, given they've made a packet on the back of snooker, why a revamp of the venue hasn't been mooted? I've had a tour of the venue and as a player I wouldnt be happy. Maybe there are planning issues i'm not aware of?
Report ccd January 24, 2015 6:41 PM GMT
For me the Hearn regime is all about pleasing the bookies who sponsor the events. When i worked in media sales we would create content (newspaper features and supplements) to suit the advertisers. More tournaments means more bets. Shorter formats means matches that are harder to predict.
Report moondan January 25, 2015 1:16 PM GMT
I will stand by every word I have said.

Snooker will never be a mainstream sport and the day that the world Championships is moved will forever be regretted.
The first thing Hearn would do is put in about 5 tables and turn it into a circus where the novelty of being able to see 5 matches at a time but be unable to get involved in the drama and suffering a player goes through would in the end be the final nail in snookers coffin.
People shoud be careful about what they wish for.

Jed you have obviously read Clive Evertons book " Black farce and cue ball wizards " which was a good read but unfortunately only told half the story and he settled a few scores in there but what it did not say was that he was trying to take over snooker as was Hearn and just about every other noodle under the sun.
Whatever is claimed it cannot be denied that throughout those times in both the eighties and nineties we had at least twenty or so proper tournaments right up until the tobacco sponsors were banned. Unfortunately for snooker a world recession became a double whammy and God himself would have struggled to get sponsorship and every sport with the possible exception of football struggled for survival.

The WPBSA did their best and they also made an announcement that they were confident that the game would survive the difficult times and to ensure that, they would give the players the conditions to make the game more entertaining.  They certainly did that!

My own view is that big breaks are killing the game and the misses and suffering is more pleasing to the proper fan and easier tables is just another self inflicted wound to the game.
Anyway we all have our opinions.
Report jed.davison January 25, 2015 1:36 PM GMT
I have read that book moondan, and quite a lot of other books too. Everton clearly had an axe - or several axes - to grind, but I don't have an entrenched position on the rights and wrongs of the various arguments that poisoned the atmosphere around the game at the times his grudges took hold. Of course there are two sides to every story, just as there are differing views to your own on the current status of the game and prognosis for its future.

I can only repeat my view that at present the game is in a healthy state, far healthier than it has been for many a year. I also disagree with your view that the 'proper fan' prefers to see the disasters in equal proportion to the triumphs. I count myself as a proper fan, and I much prefer the breakbuilders to have every chance of doing their stuff on tables designed for such a purpose. It would make very little sense to return to your perceived halcyon days of tiny bags and slow cloths - I think what fans snooker has would soon lose interest if century breaks were to become much less prevalent, and your views on this - and please don't take this as an insult because it's not meant as such - are informed as much by your advancing years as anything else.

The world moves on, and in age where ephemera rule and the concentration span of the average human being has been diminished by various societal factors which we are perhaps entitled to bemoan, it would be senseless to attempt to drag frames out just so veteran watchers could get their fill of the turgid safety exchanges, cautious approach and difficult table conditions which had kept snooker confined to dingy backrooms and away from television until Alex Higgins lit the torch for its future.

The fact is that snooker is broadening its appeal and reaching parts of the world unthinkable in previous eras, and that change has been driven by modern players playing in modern conditions. We may as well lament the arrival of the internet, or the invention of the combustion engine, as rail against the direction snooker has taken. We are where we are with the game, and it is my contention that far from dying on its feet, snooker is finally beginning to drag itself off the canvas.

Fans are flocking to the game, all over the world, and the players are lucky to be playing in an era where money flows freely, and they can get the recognition their talent, dedication and mental fortitude undoubtedly deserve.
Report jed.davison January 25, 2015 1:39 PM GMT
Always a pleasure to debate the game with you moondan, it's interesting to me that two people with such a bone-deep love for the game can have such diametrically opposed views on it.
Report moondan January 25, 2015 2:31 PM GMT
ccd

Unfortunately I think your right.

Everyone is looking for the quick return or result except the fan of the game.
Report moondan January 25, 2015 2:46 PM GMT
Jed, likewise.

We do agree on whats important.

I hope we hear from Angel soon.

Jed missed 13.36 post will reply later got to go out.
Report moondan January 28, 2015 12:02 PM GMT
Jed

To reply to a couple of your points.

I have no problem with the game evolving.

As a guy that has followed and played the game since 72 and understands it completely, it just irks me that many fans do not realize how the so-called improvements in the game came about and through their ignorance belittle players of the past who without doubt would have made very good use of todays implements, cloths and general conditions that are still evolving.
Davis and his Parrot have failed dismally to educate todays fan, worse still they have managed to upset many older players who feel their game has been shown no respect.
Only snooker has managed to show such contempt for its past all other sports do not make that mistake.

I must also correct your assumption that snooker is awash with money, it is not and its the main cause of why so few players are coming through.
To make snooker a viable career you have to be firstly amazingly good and have a very indulgent backer or sponsor who will willingly throw much money at entrance fee's travel and accomodation and that is just for starters.
Prize money  will not cover your costs unless you reach a minimum of a few quarter finals and even then it has to be ranking events.
Expenses are high, returns are exceptionally low and if you Listen to Hearn you have got to understand the concept of smoke and mirrors.
I know a good few talented players who could make their presence felt in any company but that is not the main difficulty.

I do hope snooker understands its limitations and concentrates on quality and not quantity we are already seeing players getting through to the latter stages of tournaments who are blatently not good enough and easy tables in qualification booths are responsible along with the fact they have found the entrance fee and to Hearn that is the main consideration.

The game needs protecting and just as importantly the very best players need protecting aswell.
Hearn and Davis are completely the wrong people to entrust the game to, one is a very sharp business man the other is short on intelligent observation who unfortunately try's to be a comedian but in doing so damages the game in a way that is quite lost on him.

Jed things could be done so much better.
Report kenco January 31, 2015 2:02 PM GMT
Shocked
Report grey shark February 18, 2015 6:38 PM GMT
.
Report thegiggilo February 19, 2015 12:29 AM GMT
Age showing in o'sullivans game,once the floodgates upon everyone thinks they can beat you...Shocked
Report Angel Gabrial February 19, 2015 1:39 AM GMT
Ronnie was taking the pith in the final frame, he had little intention of knuckling down in this event at this arena.

Yes true he should be over the hill by now regarding motivation( Hendry`s excuse isn`t it? ) he will still win his fair share, but if the planets are not aligned for Ronnie he won`t be too bothered. Sheffield will see him go close again but if he meets Selby again he will puff out his cheeks again.
Report moondan February 19, 2015 12:20 PM GMT
Angel

having watched Ronnie since he made his debut and knew of him at least 2 years prior its my opinion his top game might last the odd frame but that is all.

He is surviving because the big 3 are no longer competing and the game has lost its discipline.
These tables are made for Ronnies touch and if he had played on them in his great years he would be sitting on a 100 147s.
Lucky draws and poor opposition has seen him win 2 of his last 3 world championships but luck does not last forever so for your own sake do not bak him at Sheffield because it will end inCryCryCry
Report Angel Gabrial June 16, 2015 2:44 PM BST
bump
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