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Sounds pretty good to me !
What a plank.
What a plank.
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Seriously, isn't progressivism about sexual liberation and freedom of everyone to screw with everyone without any real commitment?
Or are you just being super petite about that galore word like you were mega petite about the yes/no thing last night?
I think you need to spend some time deconstructing your toxic masculinity edy.
I do, but isn't progressivism about sexual liberation and freedom of everyone to screw with everyone without real commitment? Or what is actually the progressive view and stance on sexuality and partners?
This is vital so I know in which way I need to reconstruct afterwards to meet the requirements for a progressive.
Do you lay the blame for all of the young women taking to OF and sex work to make money on the kardashians ?
Of course Kim Kardashian serves as a role model to some people, as will Bonnie Blue. They will have some sort of influence on sex work as well, sure.
Good to have you back either way, Cider. I asked earlier:
What is the primary point of this thread btw. that you had when you opened it? You think Southgate, a former professional athlete, is a "plank" for daring to suggest that there are better ways for young men than to get lost in the three vices that you possibly idenfitied as your own and you feel possibly personally attacked by this?
What is the primary point of this thread btw. that you had when you opened it? You think Southgate, a former professional athlete, is a "plank" for daring to suggest that there are better ways for young men than to get lost in the three vices that you possibly idenfitied as your own and you feel possibly personally attacked by this?
You think Southgate, a former professional athlete, is a "plank" for daring to suggest that there are better ways for young men than to get lost in the three vices that you possibly idenfitied as your own and you feel possibly personally attacked by this?
Too many possibles in that edy. Try cutting down your verbiage and stick to asking what you want to ask even if you have to break it down in to multiple questions.
Too many possibles in that edy. Try cutting down your verbiage and stick to asking what you want to ask even if you have to break it down in to multiple questions.
I would think Cider is not as limited in that department as you are, who demands questions need to be answered with "yes/no" as otherwise you run the risk of not being able to handle the response.
You'll find that the majority of professional footballers will participate in gaming, gambling and pornography. Perhaps the plank is an outlier in that regard.
Are you trying to pretend that you've done no gaming of any sort, and never consumed porn. Presumably you do still like a gamble.
I recognise them as activities young lads growing up will be attracted to. It is nothing new, just the technology has changed. Same as young girls used to wanted to do page 3 and nuts. Now they monetize their bodies on OF. Fundamentally, human primal instincts prevail.
Are you trying to pretend that you've done no gaming of any sort, and never consumed porn. Presumably you do still like a gamble.
I recognise them as activities young lads growing up will be attracted to. It is nothing new, just the technology has changed. Same as young girls used to wanted to do page 3 and nuts. Now they monetize their bodies on OF. Fundamentally, human primal instincts prevail.
Of course I am not trying to pretend any of those, but I also don't feel like thinking someone is a plank for daring to say that they think large doses of my vices are not ideal.
And you seem to like to make out that Southgate wants to forbid or say that all and any gaming, gambling or pornography are plain unacceptable. Which can absolutely not be read into his comments unless someone is disingenuous and actively seeking a reason to be outraged about him.
He is a plank, he is demonising normal behaviour. Perhaps he should be digging into why some young lads are willing to slice up and execute other young lads. That did not happen in my generation. I wonder why he doesn't 
Weren't you looking to demonise normal behaviour when you mentioned Bonnie Blue earlier?
If I remember correctly, you even opened a thread about her in the past.
What bonnie blue participates in her public life is anything but normal.
I'd say having lots of sex is more normal and more rooted in human nature than playing lot machines on a computer.
Or for that matter, having lots of sex is more normal and rooted in human nature than watching lots and lots of other people have sex.
I don't think it is, but that's not what I asked.
Do you think she is a role model for young women?
Do you think she is a role model for young women?
You think having lots of sex is more unnatural to human nature than it is to play slot machines and more unnatural than it is to watch lots of videos of other people having sex? Alright...
I already answered that role model thing at 4:34 PM.
I already answered that role model thing at 4:34 PM.
ok missed that post.
so she's a role model (without caveats) in your opinion
so she's a role model (without caveats) in your opinion
i have no objection to what anyone does in their own lives if it's legal and doesn't harm others.
i guess the point is that there are unsavoury characters that young women are drawn to online, same as young men.
for me they respond to the demand, rather than create it. essentially they are marketeers
i guess the point is that there are unsavoury characters that young women are drawn to online, same as young men.
for me they respond to the demand, rather than create it. essentially they are marketeers
What's with you guys always being all "YES/NO"? With Shrewd_dude I can understand. His name is a fraudulent choice, but with you we all know you are truly shrewd and able to handle longer reponses.
Of course there are caveats. There are always caveats. The world is not as binary as the bible loves its utter sheep to think.
In my initial response I included "some people" and "some influence", so of course she is not some ultimate role model with absolute reach. Then you can argue whether she subjectively is a good role model and objectively how high her global and local reach is. I personally do not think she is the best role model a young woman can have. The caveat regarding reach is that I suppose she, especially outside of the UK, is not really known outside of people who frequent this forum to read your threads, people who love themselves a tabloid and people who love to lament sex work and sex workers while at the same time they tend to enjoy using those service. So her reach as a role model should be limited.
Of course there are caveats. There are always caveats. The world is not as binary as the bible loves its utter sheep to think.
In my initial response I included "some people" and "some influence", so of course she is not some ultimate role model with absolute reach. Then you can argue whether she subjectively is a good role model and objectively how high her global and local reach is. I personally do not think she is the best role model a young woman can have. The caveat regarding reach is that I suppose she, especially outside of the UK, is not really known outside of people who frequent this forum to read your threads, people who love themselves a tabloid and people who love to lament sex work and sex workers while at the same time they tend to enjoy using those service. So her reach as a role model should be limited.
I feel sorry for anyone in the street that asks edy what time it is.
He would get a several sentence response and just when he thinks he could move away edy would be chasing him up the street to add something else to his response.
He would get a several sentence response and just when he thinks he could move away edy would be chasing him up the street to add something else to his response.
Still mad that I dared to point out last night how very badly thought out your supposedly binary question was last night, Shrewd_dude?
Well, the thread is about recent comments by Gareth Southgate. Those comments by the former English national team superstar were literally about role models of young boys. It does not feel that terribly out of place to reference one such role model in a thread about .... role models.
This is what started it. Tate is not a role model, nor is bonnie blue. In any way shape or form.
You can argue that young boys and girls incorrectly see them as role models. That is a different argument, and anyone making it should be more transparent.
This is what started it. Tate is not a role model, nor is bonnie blue. In any way shape or form.
You can argue that young boys and girls incorrectly see them as role models. That is a different argument, and anyone making it should be more transparent.
Still mad that I dared to point out last night how very badly thought out your supposedly binary question was last night, Shrewd_dude?
No.
No.
That's where we differ indeed. I think basically every public, and not public even, person can be and will be a role model. From them we can differ between role models we view as good or bad (and in between) and we differ between reach.
If a person has some sort of reach and influence over another, young person then they are a role model.
You on the other hand seem to restrict your definition of role model to those that you objectively view as good role models with high reach.
Shrewd_dude • March 22, 2025 5:42 PM GMT
Still mad that I dared to point out last night how very badly thought out your supposedly binary question was last night, Shrewd_dude?
No.
I am very glad to hear that.
If a person has some sort of reach and influence over another, young person then they are a role model.
You on the other hand seem to restrict your definition of role model to those that you objectively view as good role models with high reach.
Shrewd_dude • March 22, 2025 5:42 PM GMT
Still mad that I dared to point out last night how very badly thought out your supposedly binary question was last night, Shrewd_dude?
No.
I am very glad to hear that.
Who would be some role models within your rather strict definition of them, Cider?
What Is a Role Model?
A role model is someone who positively influences another person through actions and words.
you can find any definition on the internet that suits these days, this one would be similar to my understanding of the term
A role model is someone who positively influences another person through actions and words.
you can find any definition on the internet that suits these days, this one would be similar to my understanding of the term
Now, I can see why some young girls might view bonnie blue as a positive influence for example. doesn't mean that she actually is.
You on the other hand seem to restrict your definition of role model to those that you objectively view as good role models with high reach.
Subjectively, not objectively, sorry.
Subjectively, not objectively, sorry.
So do any male and female currently alive role models spring to mind?
No.
I am very glad to hear that.
You are learning edy.
I am very glad to hear that.
You are learning edy.
Mar 22, 2025 -- 6:52PM, edy wrote:
So do any male and female currently alive role models spring to mind?
Maybe Michelle Obama and someone who makes natural sciences cool for the children like Brian Cox?
While carrying themselves with dignity and all the good things.
Michelle Obama is no doubt a role model for young men.
As you will have noticed from the Bonnie Blue talk from Cider and his specific references to role models of young women, the topic was not exclusive to role models for young men.
Though maybe that went right past you.
Though maybe that went right past you.
Still, of course a woman can very much be a role model for young men.
Hopefully you will note that the forums threads are organic and develop in different ways and forumites can post responses to things said in the thread.
You don't have to feel as if every post is a direct response to you or a challenge to you in some way.
You don't have to feel as if every post is a direct response to you or a challenge to you in some way.
Oh, you posted about Michelle Obama entirely independently of my post that just so preceded yours about her?
Or are the shrewd people among us so inclined that they feel they should post remarks about the posts of others, but then get a bit whiny when others dare then also respond to that?
I posted about Michelle Obama because you mentioned her.
I never said I didn't.
I never said I didn't.
Or are the shrewd people among us so inclined that they feel they should post remarks about the posts of others, but then get a bit whiny when others dare then also respond to that?
See your problem is you are effectively making a statement with a question mark at the end rather than actually asking a question.
See your problem is you are effectively making a statement with a question mark at the end rather than actually asking a question.
These are the sort of questions that wouldn't even be allowed by the prosecution in a court in Germnay in 1942.
Allow me to ask more openly though: What was the thinking behind your post at 6:59 PM GMT if my suggestion that I wanted confirmed at 7:05 PM GMT is apparently not something you'd like to agree with?
I thought for a second you might be referring to 'court of law' as something that has some sort of moral value and adherence to principle rather than 'court of law' as any kangaroo institution that says they are upholding the law.
Good thing that was cleared up then now and you can turn your attention to 7:18 PM GMT.
Is that the one that reads like "if your aunty had baws at 1600 hours then you were inclined to think that possibly it may be the case where you inadvertently thought it might be possible that some people might think that others thought that if..."?
No, it's the one with the time 7:18 PM GMT.....as stated....
Mar 22, 2025 -- 6:52PM, edy wrote:
So do any male and female currently alive role models spring to mind?
Maybe someone like Gareth Southgate, Cider? Someone who had the work ethic and discipline to get all the way to the English national football team? Allthewhile, as far as I know, staying relatively clear of scandals and socially detrimental behaviour?
The "gaming, gambling and pornography" reference is out of place in the article. Not quite sure what gambling has to do with misogynistic and abusive social medial posters, or what it has to do with young men's mental health.
But leaving that aside young men's mental health and toxic SM influencers is a big problem. That monster who killed, tortured and raped John Hunt's family was watching Andrew Tate podcasts the day before. It's much more complex that just evil SM influencers of course. Easy to see why male kids are driven there, condescending comments that never address their issues, feeling emasculated and censored in modern society, the overwhelming feeling they've got not future. Prospect of global warming getting out of hand, huge house prices that prevent them ever being able to afford a family like their parents, ever increasing inequality, and seeing the privilege of the rich and beautiful thrown in their faces.
But leaving that aside young men's mental health and toxic SM influencers is a big problem. That monster who killed, tortured and raped John Hunt's family was watching Andrew Tate podcasts the day before. It's much more complex that just evil SM influencers of course. Easy to see why male kids are driven there, condescending comments that never address their issues, feeling emasculated and censored in modern society, the overwhelming feeling they've got not future. Prospect of global warming getting out of hand, huge house prices that prevent them ever being able to afford a family like their parents, ever increasing inequality, and seeing the privilege of the rich and beautiful thrown in their faces.
I don't think the majority of young lads feel emasculated. I think most can understand that the sexes are equal and girls need to be treated with dignity and respect.
There is a minority though. And this minority falls prey to the Tates of this world. We can see with everything in the world in the last fifteen years or so, that there's an audience ready to listen to the idea that your problems are the fault of some other group, whether that be Eastern Europeans, Muslims, immigrants in general, gay and trans people, or frankly just women and girls. It's a seductive message to the weak that tells them the issue needs to be fixed at source rather than looking inside themselves.
There is an issue about the prevalence of hardcore porn available though and what it's doing. But I don't think it's just limited to boys, even if they're probably the majority. But we are sitting back and bringing up a generation that will have very different attitudes to sex and relationships than what we've been used to.
There is a big problem of the feeling of no future though. It's related but not correlated to all this I'd say. Easy to co-opt one on to the other. But politicians need to look at young white lads and ask what they're doing for them. They might still have some baked-in advantages over others but they certainly don't feel it. Minorities and women can at least point to the past and think it's better than then and hopefully see a direction of travel where it'll be better again for their kids. But take a poor white lad from Bootle and Middlesbrough and where's that idea for them. They're getting told they have a head start over black lads or women and they must be scratching their heads. We need to address where the inequality really lies (old v young roughly, while the rich have just been getting further out of touch than ever before) and look to include everyone who falls on the wrong side of that line in the help, or at least in the conversation.
There is a minority though. And this minority falls prey to the Tates of this world. We can see with everything in the world in the last fifteen years or so, that there's an audience ready to listen to the idea that your problems are the fault of some other group, whether that be Eastern Europeans, Muslims, immigrants in general, gay and trans people, or frankly just women and girls. It's a seductive message to the weak that tells them the issue needs to be fixed at source rather than looking inside themselves.
There is an issue about the prevalence of hardcore porn available though and what it's doing. But I don't think it's just limited to boys, even if they're probably the majority. But we are sitting back and bringing up a generation that will have very different attitudes to sex and relationships than what we've been used to.
There is a big problem of the feeling of no future though. It's related but not correlated to all this I'd say. Easy to co-opt one on to the other. But politicians need to look at young white lads and ask what they're doing for them. They might still have some baked-in advantages over others but they certainly don't feel it. Minorities and women can at least point to the past and think it's better than then and hopefully see a direction of travel where it'll be better again for their kids. But take a poor white lad from Bootle and Middlesbrough and where's that idea for them. They're getting told they have a head start over black lads or women and they must be scratching their heads. We need to address where the inequality really lies (old v young roughly, while the rich have just been getting further out of touch than ever before) and look to include everyone who falls on the wrong side of that line in the help, or at least in the conversation.
I think the gambling thing was mentioned because there are twitch streamers/influencers out there that get paid to shill casino sites and apps to their young audiences.
Funny. There's a band I like and have been talking about a lot lately. They split up in 2015 and went their separate ways. But they had a site going back then with a kind of tour diary, and the last post on it was about boredom and finding online casinos, and it was basically just an affiliate advert for one and them overtly saying to check it out. Just made me realise how insidious the advertising industry is for vices in particular.
Obviously gaming is now a bigger thing, gambling adverts are in your face, and pornography is much more accessible, but young men definitely drink less alcohol. I don't think young men's attitude to women is worse now than it was in my day, I think it's better. It's society that has changed. I recall an article in The Sun iirc about Ronnie Wood and a schoolgirl who was 13 when the relationship started, as if it was acceptable. The picture of Vinnie Jones grabbing Gazza's bollox was seen as kudos to Vinnie. The likes of Stuart Hall, Jimmy Saville and Rolf Harris were running amok. Going back further The Domestic Violence and Matrimonial Proceedings Act 1976 was the first piece of legislation dedicated to combating domestic violence. According the Centre for Women's Justice until the 1970s it was not only legal but socially accepted for husbands to beat their wives.
With gambling and pornography, if there is a solid connection, it's more likely the other way round as in having mental health problems and feeling you have no future, leads to the gambling and pornography, whereas in our day it was more likely alcohol. Living life on your phones from a very early age, and the 24hr a day access to SM and it's incessant BS is the catalyst imo. I don't believe gaming is personally.
With gambling and pornography, if there is a solid connection, it's more likely the other way round as in having mental health problems and feeling you have no future, leads to the gambling and pornography, whereas in our day it was more likely alcohol. Living life on your phones from a very early age, and the 24hr a day access to SM and it's incessant BS is the catalyst imo. I don't believe gaming is personally.
Not ronnie Wood!
I think it was Bill Whyman taking a 13yo Mandy Smiff to Niteclubs with her mothers blessing.
Only some of the nation were shocked many thought she had great knockers. It was a pretty disgusting story and I am pretty sure the cops did not get involved.
I think it was Bill Whyman taking a 13yo Mandy Smiff to Niteclubs with her mothers blessing.
Only some of the nation were shocked many thought she had great knockers. It was a pretty disgusting story and I am pretty sure the cops did not get involved.
My apologies to Ronnie Wood. It was ofc his bandmate Bill Wyman
CB there's a massive leap you're making there. Young men watch Tate and young men commit crime. Correlation. That's like saying drill music causes black boys to assassinate each other, or Taylor Swift causes young women to be anorexic and commit suicide. You'd have to prove much more of a causation to suggest watching a bit of social media caused someone to murder three people in cold blood. It's very convenient for people to pin it on persona non grata Tate of course. I'm sorry I don't personally provide that cowardly (unt with such an excuse.
As I stated upthread, the plank was trying to demonise normal behaviour for young men/boys. It might not always be sensible behaviour, but it is very normal for young boys to be interested in gaming, gambling and porn.
As I stated upthread, the plank was trying to demonise normal behaviour for young men/boys. It might not always be sensible behaviour, but it is very normal for young boys to be interested in gaming, gambling and porn.
Given that you are finally back on this thread, Cider.
edy • March 22, 2025 5:52 PM GMT
So do any male and female currently alive role models spring to mind?
edy • March 22, 2025 5:52 PM GMT
So do any male and female currently alive role models spring to mind?
It's naked social engineering. Trying to brainwash people into assuming anyone engaging in those activities is a savage in waiting.
If someone out of social engineering ideological reasons is looking to demonise Gareth Southgate, yes.
I didn't get the feeling that PorcupineorPineapple, our resident Call of Duty player, felt it was a big affront towards him and that he felt Southgate is trying to make him a big bad savage.
Or did I get the wrong impression there, PorcupineorPineapple?
And speaking for myself: I probably have gamed more than most of you.
Without a doubt I have spent more time gambling than any of you (per year of activity)
With little doubt I spent more time watching pornography than any of you (well...maybe not more time, but more sessions...I'm quick)
....but I'm not silly enough to manufacture some faux outrage by deliberately misunderstanding the message Southgate was trying to purvey.
Without a doubt I have spent more time gambling than any of you (per year of activity)
With little doubt I spent more time watching pornography than any of you (well...maybe not more time, but more sessions...I'm quick)
....but I'm not silly enough to manufacture some faux outrage by deliberately misunderstanding the message Southgate was trying to purvey.
With gambling I mean sports betting, mind. Not slots. I don't do that.
Southgate is only interested in hopping on the high status gravy train. Always fancied himself as a bit of a superior type in my opinion.
You the guy who talked rather dismissively towards me about an underclass at an occasion or two? Or the guy who calls others sheep?
Your entire shtick of of seeing through it all, unlike us stupid sheep, is, just like with others along those lines, about being superior. Or at least imagining own superiority. It's also why you cannot stomach any discussion the moment you feel it becomes inevitable that you'd have to admit being wrong. At which point you then start making things up about circular discussions or generally just disappear.
Your entire shtick of of seeing through it all, unlike us stupid sheep, is, just like with others along those lines, about being superior. Or at least imagining own superiority. It's also why you cannot stomach any discussion the moment you feel it becomes inevitable that you'd have to admit being wrong. At which point you then start making things up about circular discussions or generally just disappear.
There are a lot of people craving to be perceived in that status. Hello edy
Still avoiding this for high status type handbook reasons?
edy • March 22, 2025 5:52 PM GMT
So do any male and female currently alive role models spring to mind?
edy • March 22, 2025 5:52 PM GMT
So do any male and female currently alive role models spring to mind?
You do try to initiate circular, never ending arguments and I did tell you that I no longer play that game.
Southgate is a bit like Peter Perfect. I don't think he's the best person to connect with troubled teens personally, although I don't think he's trying to be. These kids know they are not perfect. They need to know that it's ok not to be perfect.
Personally I don't feel he was even trying to do that, or at least it wasn't his primary objective.
Who grew up wanting to be Peter Perfect in Wacky Races?
Someone who wanted to try and improve things would be trying to make the distinction between make believe, fantasy, social media and real life. The real world. And unlike fantasy and social media, actions in real life have significant consequences. They are far better playing out their aggression on a PS5.
You might be a similar generation, what stuck with me then were those ads like showing kids trying to get their trainers down from electrical cables, and frying themselves. In my view that's what they need to see. If they choose to make really bad choices, what are the real life consequences.
2025 version would be showing what it's like for a 40 yr old that spent the last 20 years in jail after knifing someone to death. And wasted the best part of their life when their friends were still partying and driving fast cars and then getting married and having a family. If they could find a lag that actually did 20 years for knifing someone to death.
Mar 27, 2025 -- 5:13PM, Cider wrote:
You do try to initiate circular, never ending arguments and I did tell you that I no longer play that game.
Yes, that's absolutely it.
They need to know that it's ok not to be perfect.
Which he coincidentally explicitly mentioned in his speech this is about. One such example is even in the excerpt I pasted the other night.
Which he coincidentally explicitly mentioned in his speech this is about. One such example is even in the excerpt I pasted the other night.
Though that was in the Starmer Netflix thread actually.
edy • March 25, 2025 12:52 AM GMT
Each of you will face your own version of that penalty moment. For most, it won't be on a football pitch in front of 90,000 people.
Maybe it's the moment you didn't do as well as you hoped to in an exam.
The moment you get rejected from a job.
Or the moment you just feel like someone has let you down.
BUT in that moment, you have a choice: do you let disappointment define you? Do you give up?
Or do you get back up, learn from it, and keep going?
That choice - the ability to build belief, to find resilience - is what makes the difference.
Not just in football.
Not just in sport.
But in life.
And I believe, as a society, we must do more to help young people, and especially young men, make the right choices in life.
We must create a world where they find comfort in their own identity and a sense of belonging to those around them; where they feel they live in a culture that doesn't judge them only by how well they succeed, but by how much they grow... by the effort they put in... and the character they develop;
and where they know there is always someone there to provide the love and support they need, especially in difficult times.
That is how we will create a young generation, a society, and a nation of which we can all be very proud.
And I'm looking forward to playing whatever role I can to help make it happen.
Thank you.
edy • March 25, 2025 12:52 AM GMT
Each of you will face your own version of that penalty moment. For most, it won't be on a football pitch in front of 90,000 people.
Maybe it's the moment you didn't do as well as you hoped to in an exam.
The moment you get rejected from a job.
Or the moment you just feel like someone has let you down.
BUT in that moment, you have a choice: do you let disappointment define you? Do you give up?
Or do you get back up, learn from it, and keep going?
That choice - the ability to build belief, to find resilience - is what makes the difference.
Not just in football.
Not just in sport.
But in life.
And I believe, as a society, we must do more to help young people, and especially young men, make the right choices in life.
We must create a world where they find comfort in their own identity and a sense of belonging to those around them; where they feel they live in a culture that doesn't judge them only by how well they succeed, but by how much they grow... by the effort they put in... and the character they develop;
and where they know there is always someone there to provide the love and support they need, especially in difficult times.
That is how we will create a young generation, a society, and a nation of which we can all be very proud.
And I'm looking forward to playing whatever role I can to help make it happen.
Thank you.
Any objections to that besides your fabricated faux outrage about the gambling, gaming and pornography statements you like to misconstrue out of ideological reasons, Cider?
Mar 27, 2025 -- 5:00PM, edy wrote:
Or did I get the wrong impression there, PorcupineorPineapple?
soz, was just schooling some incels on Fortnite. Nah, I'm not offended by Southgate.
What happened to "Stardew Valley" or something peaceful like "Boomerang Fu" or "Heave Ho" or ... the very British and patriotic "Thank Goodness You're Here!"? You kids these days are just awful, awful thugs compared to how peaceful, mannered, civil, well-raised, respectful towards humans, environment and nature and well educated on music, not today's noise, the generations before you were.
How big was the controversy regarding the Scottish made Manhunt (and Manhunt 2 I guess) in the UK mainstream back in the day? I know people tried to (unsuccessfully) link it to a specific murder. I think I only played and completed the first one, but I gotta say it was kind of ... uncomfortable at times. Not all around huge fun like shooting around in Unreal Tournament or rolling up people as they scream for mercy in the Katamari franchise.
How big was the controversy regarding the Scottish made Manhunt (and Manhunt 2 I guess) in the UK mainstream back in the day? I know people tried to (unsuccessfully) link it to a specific murder. I think I only played and completed the first one, but I gotta say it was kind of ... uncomfortable at times. Not all around huge fun like shooting around in Unreal Tournament or rolling up people as they scream for mercy in the Katamari franchise.
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