Those UNABLE to work to have benefits CUT

PP

I am not saying disabled people should not be helped. Where have I inferred that?

I am saying nog everybody needs a new car and we should not be paying for so many

A friend of mine, who I used to play football with (late 80's), was working to find fraudulent benefit claimants. He was given a company car to literally spy on people and report his findings on individuals. It probably paid his wages and car, before the role was made redundant. Why? I wonder.

When I worked on a few different work programs for the unemployed it was obvious some of them were working and claiming, but nobody cared. This is the real problem. Fraudulent claimants are out there, all over, but nobody is doing anything about it and when there was something in place (my friend), they were made redundant and the role removed.

As for the car, it is leased and only applicable whilst the benefit is in place. If they lose PIP, they lose the car and it does appear that many will face that dilemma in the not-too-distant future.

I’d have people looking on Facebook all day!

Not just fraudulent unemployment claimants but fraudulent PIP claimants and tax evaders

But the car isn't the point.


The benefits system gives disabled x amount a month. If they choose to spend it on a car then what's that got to do with you?

The only way we're going to deal with tax evaders WD is to get rid of cash. Can't see that happening in what's left of my lifetime.

No PP

The point is if somebody can afford to pay £300 while on benefits and a working man needs to do a cash in hand job to put food in the table for his kids something is wrong.

Again I am not against people who need benefits getting them . I am really angry about people gaming the system and ripping off us.

Seriously how many working people do yi7 think can afford £75 a week for a brand new car?

Something is wrong. The company set up to deal with this is holding £4 billion in cash. Where did that money come from? Why do they have so much?

Then again that's a wider point. As for someone being able to pay £300, it's not always that straight forward. My dad did it in the 90s. Back then it was around £30 a week for a new Fiesta. He didn't drive by that point, so we "played the system" by me having the car and also giving him the £30 a week shortfall. But I don't think we actually did anything wrong really.



But in terms of some people affording more than others do you think we should means test benefits?


Similar to the farrago about the pensions last year. The issue is that some people are well off and some aren't. But the cost and time to means test is prohibitive. Maybe better tech through AI is the solution. And any system will always have people gaming it. That's just a simple fact of life. But right now the cost of properly checking each case and then investigating for possible fraud, and then going through appeals etc, massively outweighs the cash benefits you'd save by detecting and stopping them. Governments will always talk tough but until that equation gives a different answer it will always be the case.

PIP is completely antiquated. It's supposedly scored on an individual's ability to conduct daily chores at home. The scoring methodology is public, so it's very easy to be coached into saying what's needed to get the score up.

It is not scored on disability.

It's antiquated as it still assumes life before the internet. When people still had to go to a shop, go to the bank, go to a hairdresser/barber, go to the doctors etc.

Nowadays you practically don't need to leave your house for anything. For the tiny number of tasks you still do, most people could simply use an uber or similar. Again, the number of people who literally can't type on a keyboard or use a mobile phone is vanishingly small.

Exactly because of the internet, people have learned how to navigate the systems and meet the requirements. As I've stated before on here, young people have learned all they need to claim is that they are considering self harming.

There should be no system PIP at all, and instead if it's determined that people quality for inability support then they should need to submit expense claims for the costs, with documented evidence of exactly what the money was spent on.

The 'system' now uses best intent. It assumes all applications are genuine, when it should assume every applicant is trying to cheat the taxpayer. So the burden of proof is on the applicant to support the claim, not on the state to disprove it. Should operated like a mortgage application, where the burden off proof sits with the applicant and not the lender. The current system is like the old style self certification, if I claim I can't bend down to use the cooker, it must be true. Well no, we actually need a medical professional to personally commit to confirming that you can't.

That's not strictly true Cider; it doesn't assume all are genuine. To get the benefits it needs to be proven by a GP and current records, all of which need to be provided, together with hospital visits and outcomes. The burden of proof is on the applicant.

It is true for PIP. No medical evidence is required, but to justify the score it helps. As I alluded to the assessment looks at daily tasks, for example preparing a meal. So people can claim they can't bend down to use their oven. There's no medical proof for that, but if you have evidence of a condition might make bending down difficult, it helps the assessor to give the score.

I'm sure you're aware, PIP in not means tested AT ALL, and in fact you could earn £150K pa and qualify for PIP. It's also not awarded for disability, but for alleged inability to carry out daily 'essential' tasks for yourself.

I was talking about PIP. If it is not provided they write to the doctors to confirm what is written.

Here's an example to get 2 points

Descriptor C (2 points): Cannot cook a simple meal using a conventional cooker but is able to do so using a microwave

May apply to someone with a condition that means they cannot safely use a cooker hob, but could use a microwave oven instead - for example, a cognitively impaired person who would be likely to leave a gas cooker on.

Someone with very frequent but predictable seizures should be able to use a conventional cooker. Claimants with unpredictable episodes may need to use a microwave due to the risk of burning themselves with a conventional cooker.

Using an oven or bending to cook are not considerations for this descriptor.

This descriptor only considers the cooking element of activity 1. Preparing a simple meal will need to be considered separately within this activity.

.

Cognitive impairment is when you have problems remembering things and solving problems. Cognitive impairment is not an illness. It can be caused by many conditions. 


So if you were planning to get 2 points for this descriptor you'd approach your GP and tell them you have trouble remembering things, like I left my front door open accidentally, more than once. It's just started happening. That's it. No way that is going to get proven or disproven for years. It doesn't need medical proof. More than likely you'd just have a quick chat with your gp over the phone. People who actually have genuine problems can't get them diagnosed!

I just picked out one for two points, but if you were aiming for 8 it would be pretty simple. Most of us have something going on that's not perfect. Getting PIP is a strategy so you'd aim for the descriptors and points that could be most achievable, closest to your own scenario, and harder to disprove. For example someone who is obese would go for the tasks that SOME obese people have problems with (eg putting socks and shoes on)

So whilst technical obesity can be proven for example, your inability to get dressed by yourself cannot. Nobody in the process is going to ask to see it.

Agree with all of that Cider, but it still needs to be recorded. People can't just say it, it needs to be on recorded and PIP needs to see that a "medical professional" agrees. It isn't taken as what someone puts on a form, as it appeared you alluded to.

You said "we actually need a medical professional to personally commit to confirming that you can't" and that is exactly what is happening. Can't blame them for accepting it if the records show it, even if it hasn't been a face-to-face or a follow-up doctor's or hospital appointment.

Another thing is that many claimants are told that they may be subject to an independent medical examination. How many actually take place I don't know, but just that statement will put a few off if they are not being totally honest.

In your defence, the figures are rising rapidly, which alone suggests dodgy claims are amongst them. Not sure how they get through, but they clearly are beating the system.

Lol, I can't believe that someone thinks claimants just get handed a new car for filling out a form.

GPs don't see themselves as referees. If I tell them I am experiencing a condition, they won't say I'm lying. If you went back 10-15 years it used to be pretty difficult to get a fit note, now I can get one online. They call it admin.

They aren't personally putting their name to my condition 100% existing, they are simply confirming that I've reported that I have it.

In fact the system changed. they flipped it from being too sick to work to being fit to work.

It's not easy yak hunt. But can definitely be achieved by those inclined.

Mar 15, 2025 -- 3:47PM, Cider wrote:

They aren't personally putting their name to my condition 100% existing, they are simply confirming that I've reported that I have it.

Agreed again, and this will flag up the need for an independent medical examiner to take a look. If the files say that the Dr has personally examined them or they've had a hospital appointment, then again, this is further proof of a legitimate claim. Both are covered, which is why it surprises me that so many people get through.

Perhaps they are putting stuff in our water

Lockdown was the precipitant.

And for the third time... agreed!

Not for increased illness, but medics, gps and decision makers got a taste of working from home. They'd rather do that than fish out fraudulent applicants. Plus of course, it completely bunged up the system as it was all put on ice for 2 years.

There's no consequences for illegitimately claiming either. So it's a free shot for the scammers.

Anxiety is the new bad back. A caller in LBC explained his son in law is on PiP. Suffer anxiety. Lives at home, gets a brand new car which two of his friends can drive and they cruise around all over the place. The kid thinks why should I work? Dam right too when there are fools like us picking up his tab and voting in morons who will not put an end to this.

The crazy thing there WD is how on earth he gets full mobility with anxiety. If he ever drives on his own (not made clear) then he is a danger to not only himself, but the public too.

I already said a few times, claim that they are considering self harm suicide. How do you prove that they aren't. It takes some balls to brazenly lie like that, but apparently that's the workaround the kids are sharing.

You can see why bureaucrats would use the precaution principle, and assessors told not to further question anyone who is claiming to be suicidal.

If it was up to me I'd say fine, but you are going straight into a residential support facility [sectioned]. So no need for PIP.

The benefit system, as is, is completely unsustainable.

We have pensioners dying of hypothermia while big strapping young lads are at the skate park on Employment and Support Allowance (ESA), Personal Independence Payment (PIP), and Universal Credit.

This crazy system was cobbled together by the Tories. Labour need to smash it!

Mar 16, 2025 -- 1:42PM, Cider wrote:

If it was up to me I'd say fine, but you are going straight into a residential support facility [sectioned]. So no need for PIP.

That would work

Mar 16, 2025 -- 11:43AM, Whisperingdeath wrote:

Anxiety is the new bad back. A caller in LBC explained his son in law is on PiP. Suffer anxiety. Lives at home, gets a brand new car which two of his friends can drive and they cruise around all over the place. The kid thinks why should I work? Dam right too when there are fools like us picking up his tab and voting in morons who will not put an end to this.

Again, you are judging on one phone call without knowing the details.

It is not in doubt that some abuse the benefit system but the vast majority claim what the rules allow them to.

If you actually believe that, you're away with the fairies.

Sounds to me like he has a mobilty vehicle tbh.

Got it in one Yak

The rules need changing.

We do not to be paying for a car for a large number of these claimants

I would prefer we paid for hip operations for people in pain

The details were clear yak

The kid was gaming the system because he did not want to work. He said so to his step dad

I hope you understand that if the radio caller is correct, the son-in-law is giving away his motability allowance? He isn't gaining anything from it.

By the way, Personal Independence Payment has got nothing at all to do with whether you are working or not.

How come people with anxiety are not anxious when driving a car?

Again the point is the rules are wrong and need to be changed.

Why does a young man living at home need a mobility allowance?

The system is broken

You do realise if the blaggers did not get away with it there would be more money available for those who really need it?

The rules don't need changed at all, they are very fair. You have no knowledge of the case regarding the radio caller nor do I. If he was awarded the higher rate, he would have been assessed by a qualified medical professional. The award is useless to him personally as the claim is that he has given the car to his friends.

Mar 16, 2025 -- 6:08PM, Whisperingdeath wrote:

The details were clear yakThe kid was gaming the system because he did not want to work. He said so to his step dad

Again, Personal Independent Payment has got nothing at all to do with whether you are working or not.

Obviously, but if you don't work you still need money to live. Ergo, the PIP gravy train. It's worth more than UC for a jobseeker, not means tested and no further requirements. The incentive to cheat is massive, and no repercussions if you fail to bluff them.

Same as the old illegal immigrants / pretendy asylum seekers. Massive gains if you're successful and no penalties if you're found out.

How does a "qualified medical professional" actually assess someone for anxiety?

Let's never lose sight of the fact this system was designed by the Tories.

Anxiety

How does one get a brand new car if they are anxious?

The system needs fixing

One in 4 Gen Z’s are contemplating quitting work due to “ anxiety “

Again I ask why should you receive benefits and potentially a brand new car because you are “ anxious “?

More to the point why should I have to pay increased taxes because some people do not want to work?

You do not have to have a physical disability to get the mobility part. You might also be eligible if you have difficulty getting around because of a cognitive or mental health condition, like anxiety.

What PIP is for
Personal Independence Payment (PIP) can help with extra living costs if you have both:

a long-term physical or mental health condition or disability

difficulty doing certain everyday tasks or getting around because of your condition

You can get PIP even if you’re working, have savings or are getting most other benefits.

PIP amounts

Lower weekly rate    Higher weekly rate
Daily living part    £72.65    £108.55
Mobility part    £28.70    £75.75

It seems like you do just object to social security after all

Great value for money

We cover the insurance, servicing, MOTs and repairs, plus we’ll give you breakdown cover. It’s all included in your lease. We can even adapt the car if you need to.

It is not great value for money fir me as a tax payer…….. his do I get one?

Eligibility
You can get Personal Independence Payment (PIP) if all of the following apply to you:

you’re 16 or over
you have a long-term physical or mental health condition or disability
you have difficulty doing certain everyday tasks or getting around
you expect the difficulties to last for at least 12 months from when they started

At the end of the day the public will see Starmer taking money
from British people who might be playing the system and giving
it to foreigners who absolutely are. It doesn't look good.

No PP

Please demonstrate what I have said that draws you to that conclusion

I am a from the cradle to the grave socialist

I believe in the NHS, free dentistry, free University education.

I do not understand how the company who administers the Mobility scheme has a £4 Billion cash pile.

I do not understand why if you have “ anxiety “ you can qualify for a brand new car.

Further to that there are people fuelling hatred. I just had a friend tell me they were fed up with the NHS and not being able to get treatment because of the immigrants.

This mass fraud needs to be addressed or at least the system needs to justify its use of tax payer money. This system is wrong!

Oh bingo and there we have it

A saddo bigot on his favourite hobby

You should get out more, you might begin to read the public mood a little better.

My demonstration could be distilled into how you put the word anxiety in quotation marks.

What us anxiety PP

Define it and explain why people can get a brand new car for it while others are too scared to go to a dentist for fear of the cost.

Explain why some people get a free car while others have to walk around with pain in knees and hips. Why doesn’t the bone doctor have £4 Billion in a bank account that can pay a private hospital for a knee or hip operation?

Why do car manufacturers get paid in tax payer cash fir one in five cars sold?

I'm not a doctor. It's not my place to define it. But I know it's real.

Anxious people (real ones) often do become agoraphobic. My neighbour is depressive
and worked from home during lockdown. She now has to go in two days a week and it affects her
mood and makes her more stressed. Depression is circular.

I had anxiety a couple of decades ago. Needed blue-lighting to hospital once when my heart rate got near 200. Fun times.

I lived in that world for quite a time, bleak. Chronic pain for four years brought it on but it doesn't leave when the pain goes.
I struggled on self employed working, it makes my blood boil that people pretend to have back pain and depression.

That is my point saddo

People who need help should be getting it and not have their allowances cut.

My ire is really at people gaming the system and this’d who put the system in place

I do not blame people gif not wanting g to work for minimum wage and zero hours but do not expect to be paid for not working.

We are nog on this Earth tk make billionaires richer. We need to fight back against our exploitation by them

My neighbour needs and gets help, but she chooses to work and has the odd few days off
when it's too much. Too many can't be arsed, it costs GPs nothing to be fooled
and there is no comeback if any self harm ocurrs.

We agree on something saddo bug you want to demonise immigrants and non Anglo Saxons.

We are headed for 1930’s Germany

It is gesture politics true but it is a good gesture

Private schools are probably better

I understand some people do have real educational needs gif their children, smaller classes, adhd etc but the reality gif most is if a kid works hard they can get 3A*’s so why pay to go private?

To get a leg up in life and jump the queues

People are being dishonest. You could spend money on o Po ribald tuition and get the grades

Private Schools are not defeatist. They can give you confidence and positive EXPECTATION. So many kids now have negative expectation they do not want to work for no money and no prospects. The trouble is we are facilitating them doing this through PIP. It is not their fault it is ours

I also think we need to tackle the migration issue saddo but with some honesty

The rules on asylum and migration need changing

Mar 17, 2025 -- 12:03PM, Whisperingdeath wrote:

My ire is really at people gaming the system and this’d who put the system in place I do not blame people gif not wanting g to work for minimum wage and zero hours but do not expect to be paid for not working.We are nog on this Earth tk make billionaires richer. We need to fight back against our exploitation by them

You seem to be obsessed with believing that PIP is only awarded to those not working, which is completely untrue.

If I'm to understand it, Pip, or a car to the value of, would be given to someone
who had,say, a transplant operation, even if they had enough savings to buy a hundred cars.
Is this correct?

Yes!

And you can be in full time gainful occupation

No Yak

I have made my position clear. I am opposed to people gaming the system. I want people who need help to get it.

I do not believe “ anxiety “ is a good enough reason to be given PIP allowances.

Perhaps you should have a look at the Government website and also the many websites that offer advice on how to make a successful claim and you might realise we are being mugged off and people who deserve better care and financial help are not getting it because of bogus claimants.

That is not to say financial fraud and tax evasion are NOT area’s where money could be saved or Quango’s, DEFRA allowances and grants to rich landowners etc

Having mental health issues is not a reason or excuse not tk work to support yourself.

I appreciate people gave serious clinical depression and issues that prevent them earning a living and they need help and they should get it.

People with serious clinical depression should be in a residential care facility. No need for PIP or zero cost cars.

Obviously 99% of of people claiming serious clinical depression wouldn't take up the offer.

Plus, anyone with actual clinical depression can be sorted. It's not irreversible like paralysis.

So much medical expertise on here

These claimants for alleged conditions of the mind that make them incapable of doing basic tasks aren't being diagnosed by a psychiatric consultant. It is self claimed.

This topic is about logic, not medical expertise.

You don't need to be a geopolitical mastermind to know that the vast majority of boat people have traversed half the world, allegedly in fear of their lives, only to opt to risk their life by choice by hopping into a dingy in France to cross the channel aren't actually fleeing war and torture, and are after a seat on the British gravy train.

Scotland's First Minister John Swinney is urging the government to "think again" on welfare cuts, adding that he doesn't "like the look" of them

Mar 17, 2025 -- 2:25PM, Whisperingdeath wrote:

No YakI have made my position clear. I am opposed to people gaming the system. I want people who need help to get it.I do not believe “ anxiety “ is a good enough reason to be given PIP allowances.Perhaps you should have a look at the Government website and also the many websites that offer advice on how to make a successful claim and you might realise we are being mugged off and people who deserve better care and financial help are not getting it because of bogus claimants.That is not to say financial fraud and tax evasion are NOT area’s where money could be saved or Quango’s, DEFRA allowances and grants to rich landowners etc

You also seem obsessed by one unverified phone call to a radio station third hand, where you have no idea whatsoever of the facts, yet are somehow trying to say this is standard for folks trying to "game" the system. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The government are absolutely correct in publishing details on websites of how to claim extra help. There is a fortune out there not being claimed by folks who need help but are too ashamed/proud to apply for it.

Where did Abbott get her wealth tax figures from?
diane suggesting a 2% wealth tax

Yak

Many people know of others claiming these allowances and are thinking it is a disgrace. Do you think that people should defraud the system. It is clearly legal and if is the system that needs changing.

If folks are claiming the allowance, they have been examined by a medical professional who has verified their disability.

Really?

I think you might find that incorrect.

I can assure you that is fact.

You don't have a clue

There are peple who have been refused benefits even when having cancer,it's a right rigmarole that has caused people to commit suicide no doubt the numbers are now going to soar as well,if you've git a **** of a doctor you're fcuked.

jonothon laycock
@Obsidian24776
Currently the DWP use private companies to use  the Work Capability Assessment for ESA/UC and a separate assessment for PIP. Both are designed as disability denial mechanisms, the WCA was lifted wholesale from US insurance giants who have a history of disability denial.

The far left have a history of reality denial.

Reality deniers are the very worst.