We know more about USA gunmen than the Southport killer

Dude, I was mocking the far-right hooligan mugs with that initial comment about the civil war. Is that seriously still not clear?

The US American alt cringe has the same dream of the civil war in the USA and elsewhere. Musk even declared the civil war in Britain as inevitable.

Dude, I was mocking the far-right hooligan mugs with that initial comment about the civil war. Is that seriously still not clear?

Intertextual comedy. I guess that's why Germany hasn't taken over that stage.

unitedbiscuits • September 17, 2024 6:42 PM BST
So what is the purpose of the news embargo today? If it was known - then - that he was a Cardiff-born Christian son of Rwandan immigrants, how can it possibly protect the integrity of his trial to suppress that, and all other information pertaining to Axel?

What would you actually like to know that is being embargoed??

Or that you feel is being embargoed.

We knew he was christian by wednesday or thursday, yet by the saturday there were riots organised targetting mosques.


Please do explain the qed on how more info would have stopped any violence.

criminal activity on social media

Just this concept is tyrannical.

The Sun had definitely reported on his Rwandan Cardiff Christian background by Tuesday, July 30th 9 pm BST. Others likely will have around the same time.

https://web.archive.org/web/20240730231222/https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/29578114/suspect-southport-knife-horror-karate-cardiff/

.

We knew he was christian by wednesday or thursday, yet by the saturday there were riots organised targetting mosques.
Please do explain the qed on how more info would have stopped any violence.

Axel Rudakubana is the name of the 17-year-old boy charged with the murders of three girls at a Taylor Swift-themed dance class in Southport, England on July 29, 2024. Rudakubana is also charged with 10 counts of attempted murder and one count of possessing a bladed article. He is currently in youth custody.
Before Rudakubana's identity was revealed, a false name and background for the killer spread online. The false name was Ali Al-Shakati, an asylum seeker of Muslim faith who was said to have come to the UK by boat. This false information was shared in at least 4,776 posts across social media platforms, with a potential reach of 1.7 billion people. The spread of this false information led to a series of race riots in towns and cities across England.
The prosecution said that Rudakubana has an autism spectrum disorder diagnosis and had been "unwilling to leave the house and communicate with family for a period of time".

Sep 17, 2024 -- 1:19PM, tobermory wrote:

criminal activity on social mediaJust this concept is tyrannical.

Whether you threaten to kill me via a physical letter made from letter cutouts or via social media should be similarly criminal instead of the prosecution of one of them being considered tyrannical.

everyone who is currently in prison is there because they pled guilty and so the cases were dead quick. They had no defence.

They were told they would be held on remand until trial.

So they could either plead guilty, get 15 months, be released on one of the these early release schemes after 6 or 7 months...

OR stay in prison on remand for 6/7 months awaiting trial and finally be released if not guilty, or get convicted and end up serving well over a year in total.

Who threatened to kill an individual, in any way that was credible?

I don't know who did. I was merely making the general point that of course something does of course not suddenly become decriminalised if you do it through electronic means.

Or did you not mean to say it would be comical tyranny to hunt apply existing death threat laws to social media?

It was a bit of a throwback to the McCarthy era: - people musing on sm getting jailtime.

Pathetic really. Not as if our prisons were not full - and how would you keep that going after Southport? There must be tens if not hundreds of thousands of potential online jailbirds waiting for Starmergeddon.

Internet death threats are almost always going to be less credible than IRL ones, or sending a letter to the person's house.

Internet 'Incitement' is also less credible. In America incitement needs to be something that has a probablity of being acted upon immediately, a high bar that would not have been met in any of these Starmer crackdown cases.

Yes, they will tend to be less credible, partly because a lot of them come from annoyed gamblers from far-away countries, but the mere concept (as you phrased it) of criminal activity on social media is of course nonetheless not tyrannical. I can very much make credible death threats on social media, or in a credible way defame someone, or in a credible way, possibly even more efficiently than I could do away from social media, incite people to attempt to kill you.

in any of these Starmer crackdown cases.

Researched every last one of them to make such an absolute statement?

They were told they would be held on remand until trial.


Not heard that. Do you have a link so I can check it out for myself?

UB - thanks for that post, but I'm not sure there was a response in there.


As per that Sun article, there was loads of accurate info about him released in less than 48 hours, but that didn't stop racists organising on the internet and attacking mosques several days later.

Can you please explain your confidence in how more info would have stopped those attacks and what that info (apart from his religion or place of birth or parents nationality etc which was already released) would be needed to stop those attacks?

Ta.

The common theme with all of these atrocities, public wants to know what was going on in the heads of the assailants.

God bless the USA cos they satisfy that legitimate interest.

The UK still treats its subjects like children.

Maybe we just prioritise the integrity of criminal trials over giving people something to gossip about.

Wasn't it reported that he kept quiet in his initial hearings and that there is hence likely nothing to report on in regards to what was actually going on in his head?

But anyway, we're digressing.


How would (even) more info have stopped the race riots?

Of course one could be a gosippy gossiper about it still, but then the public would still not know what was going on in the head.

Of course one could be a gosippy gossiper about it still, but then the public would still not know what was going on in the head.

Well that's a clumsy inversion of the argument for freedom of information. East German stamp.

Sep 17, 2024 -- 1:40PM, edy wrote:

Yes, they will tend to be less credible, partly because a lot of them come from annoyed gamblers from far-away countries, but the mere concept (as you phrased it) of criminal activity on social media is of course nonetheless not tyrannical. I can very much make credible death threats on social media, or in a credible way defame someone, or in a credible way, possibly even more efficiently than I could do away from social media, incite people to attempt to kill you.

Even removed from any criminality....if people just (at least remotely) behaved on social media the way that their normal, civil upbringing has taught them to behave in a social setting, people wouldn't even have to whine about tyrannical social media hunts, right?

I say remotely behaved that way because we are not going to converse exactly the same way we do person-to-person. Nobody does, but there should be no reason to forget the entire upbringing one enjoyed.

unitedbiscuits • September 17, 2024 8:05 PM BST
Of course one could be a gosippy gossiper about it still, but then the public would still not know what was going on in the head.

Well that's a clumsy inversion of the argument for freedom of information. East German stamp.

But how do you expect to know (your phrase) what was going on in their head if he hasn't engaged in a conversation about his motives?

Though please answer PorcupineorPineapple first. You've made him wait a very long time by now.

As per that Sun article, there was loads of accurate info about him released in less than 48 hours, but that didn't stop racists organising on the internet and attacking mosques several days later.

Can you please explain your confidence in how more info would have stopped those attacks and what that info (apart from his religion or place of birth or parents nationality etc which was already released) would be needed to stop those attacks?

Correct me if I'm wrong but has not the "loads of accurate info" been suppressed? Nothing lately about Axel Muganwa Rudabukana. I gather he appeared on a BBC prog which has now been erased. Please link anything new.

I doubt more accurate info sooner in this case would have prevented the riots.

But the sense that there are political reasons for being slow with information in these cases of immigrant related crime was a factor in the build up of anger.

How would (even) more info have stopped the race riots?

It's like this:

The Southport killings came out of a blue sky.

The second thing people want to do is try to understand the motive for the attack.

That is what the UK establishment has tried to conceal from its people.

Sep 17, 2024 -- 1:34PM, unitedbiscuits wrote:

It was a bit of a throwback to the McCarthy era: - people musing on sm getting jailtime. Pathetic really. Not as if our prisons were not full - and how would you keep that going after Southport? There must be tens if not hundreds of thousands of potential online jailbirds waiting for Starmergeddon.

What total b****

These criminals admitted they were wrong. They encouraged people to destroy property and threaten innocent people.

Of course there will be some racist idiots who think these criminals shouldn’t be punished. Thankfully the U.K. courts believe that jail is an appropriate place for criminals.

How do you know they "tried to conceal"?

How could they know for certain without proper questioning, use of experts, detailed analysis of devices used etc? Do you think that stuff takes a couple of hours?


And again, for what we can all only hope is the last time: how would this extra info have stopped the race riots?

Not everybody uploads a manifesto onto 4chan.

Racist biscuit just doesn’t stop his nonsense….


The second thing people want to do is try to understand the motive for the attack.


If only the U.K. had a system where evidence is gathered by professionals and presented in a court , with members of the public listening and deciding if a crime has been committed. Crazy idea but the media could attend these hearings.

Noooooooo that peaceful concept would never catch on in U.K.

Correct, ur the leftovers of barbarian outcasts sent away from our germanic lands way back in time for a reason.

How do you know they "tried to conceal"?

They dropped a D-notice on Fleet ST and BBC.

In case it "prejudices their chances of a fair trial."



Assuming he doesn't get off, it will cost £1k per week to keep him.

Assuming he doesn't get off, it will cost £1k per week to keep him.

For the rest of his life. He is 17.

Where do you get your “facts” from biscuits

Is it really only £50k a year for catA top security prison.
If he “gets off” will be in secure hospital so will also cost money.

Voluntary national security notices are issued to embargo news about judicial topics?

Thankfully the U.K. courts believe that jail is an appropriate place for criminals.

yeah ?  so how come perverts like Huw Edwards get away without jail ?

how come 3000 criminals were let loose early last week ?


The streets appear to be the appropriate place for criminals in the UK as the riots demonstrated

Irish

Are you really so stupid that you can’t answer you own questions?

The crimes for which Edwards is guilty of are not viewed as serious as the crimes for which the rioters have been convicted of.

Sentence guidelines are published.


You know why the government released people after 40% rather that 50% of sentences. If there is no f***ing room to keep criminals locked up there isn’t really a quick fix. Either make temporary prisons and take police away from duty to guard them or free up space.

Do you rely not understand anything?

Wow, Mexico off his medication .,

More please

The crimes for which Edwards is guilty of are not viewed as serious as the crimes for which the rioters have been convicted of.

says it all

Exactly tob, says it all.

Pretty much how every country decides on punishment.

Murder is considered a more serious crime than rape so the sentence guidelines reflect that.
A simple concept but far too complicated for the loud racist keyboard warriors to understand.

The crime itself is not everything considered in the length of a sentence and whether someone gets a probation.

“Huw Edwards: Attorney general under pressure to appeal against ‘lenient’ sentence for ex-BBC presenter” : The Independent

Think Starmer deserves a bit of credit for knocking it on its head asap. It simply couldn't continue and while people may some grievance re immigration many of them voted in parties whose policies encouraged just that.

Starmer will be lucky to see out his term PA ,His ratings have gone through the floor ,People did not realise he was as bad if not worse than the Tories

This is no Labour party I have ever known , astounding TBH

I disliked Cameron and Gideon intensely , never thought I would feel the same about another British Politician

Starmer has surpassed them imo

That is likely T O N, but i'd argue that will be mirroring the UK in general. He is not trying to reset European relations for the fun of it,he knows where the economy has gone the last few years also where it is projected to go in the next few, the gung ho of 2020 shown up big time in an increasingly connected world.

They are yet to tell us what this 22 Billion black hole is made up of PA , never mind anything else

They are liars he has gone back on everything he has stood for in the last few years

The brexit figures are minus 2-3% the last few years rising to 5-6% by 2035,may have brushed over and hidden it a bit only for covid/Russia but they are over whereas the loss of investment,tax take etc are upcoming,he got such a poisoned chalice and questions need to be asked why the route that happened was more of a benefit to individuals rather than Britain itself.

Draghi report -
"9 Sept 2024 — If the EU were to maintain its average productivity growth rate since 2015, it would only be enough to keep GDP constant until 2050"

No growth for over 2 decades, hardly a boom fest going on in Europe, and the tide is rising as more and more populists get close to power who want out.

Maybe it’s all pivoting on how much the regulator can force the likes of Apple to pay Ireland in avoided taxes?

Ireland don't know what to do with that 13 billion euro and just stuffing it down the back of the settee for now. Their debt is just 39% against 98% to GDP for the UK,a eurozone success story and a brexit beneficary whose politicians seem to be working for the good of the country rather than their own interests.
I expect winter fuel payments and a raft of other 'goodies' for the population in their upcoming budget.
Only just over a decade since the country was in austerity so it can be done.

Populism in part played a hand in those riots and where the UK is now,a more pragmatic approach seems to be in play in Europe and very much doubt Europeans would want to go down the UK route given that the consequences are becoming more apparent day by day.

Mexico are you really so stupid as to ask a question about a question ?

The most important words you have said are "viewed" , "guidelines" , "Considered".

Once you accept and understand that the population in your democracy have not IN THE PAST got their Viewing , or their guidelines or their considerations fcking right you might be able to realise your country is FUBAR.

Lapsy
The P.O.Box tax rake of American firms is the quintessential undermining of everyone else; the crack den of tax avoiding corps.
It lasts a short period before everyone else gets the arse on who are getting shafted, then Ireland goes back to what?
Promoting woke professionally?

National populism is the result of politics growing indignation to the growing frustrations of them not doing as the people request in elections, essentially forcing an agenda irrespective of the result at the ballot box
It’s going nowhere other than sweeping into power, Europe are further along this road than the UK is.
We would do well to meet with these European parties and agree a new consensus.

Thank you Irish for once again showing how little you understand.

There are sentences guidelines. If you are offended by the official term then seek medical help.

In the meantime here is a link to the guidelines.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/

Do you not understand that your guidelines don't work ? neither do your considerations, neither do your viewings

The whole process needs reform.


It doesn't matter who is in power the legal system in the UK is not working.

Add to that Education and Health your country is totally fecked.

Please explain the logic behind.....

Hamas terrorist leader living in London on a false passport

A government committee two years ago saying "System of government in England in need of serious overhaul" being ignored

Taking Fuel money off pensioners when illegal immigrants get put up in heated hotels ?

In the meeantime here is a link to British idiocy

https://committees.parliament.uk/work/603/the-evolution-of-devolution-english-devolution/news/173961/system-of-government-in-england-in-need-of-serious-overhaul-say-mps/

Irish

Perhaps time you retired to your safe space and call your nurse.

Removing a tax payer handout of £300 to everybody over 67 years old regardless of their wealth has absolutely f all to do with the sentencing guidelines for violent racist criminals.


Seek help.

Instead of petty insults and micro racism why not look at the bigger picture

The M P's voted two years ago for an inquiry into the way Britain was being run.

Two years ago Starmer made recommendations on Lords reform, devolution of power and the future of the union.

He said that the party said its centrepiece would involve mass transfer of power from Westminster to the people and their local areas, with Starmer saying “the centre hasn’t delivered”.

UK needs reform throughout, root and branch , Starmers Root and Branch wont fit the Tories root and branch.

This is what is crippling the U K ...the politicians and the parties are too busy infighting to care about the people long term, short term or any other term.....its been crippling the U K for years

Fair.


Maybe come back in five years and stick the boot in if he hasn't delivered.

Fair.


Maybe come back in five years and stick the boot in if he hasn't delivered.

This is what is crippling the U K ...the politicians and the parties are too busy infighting to care about the people long term, short term or any other term.....its been crippling the U K for years

which is difficult to disagree with but without pointing out a better way currently existing and preferably precluding dictatorships..

virtually nothing unique about the UK in most regards as much as political fanboys on both sides might pretend at times.

It needs a central approach, you are at War with Immigration, in times of war you draw up a coalition.

Recent governments have endorsed high immigration levels as a route to fixing workforce supply issues (both skilled and low skilled)..on both sides of the benches so as yet there doesn't seem a war to be fought in that regard...

Illegal immigration probably needs some serious attention - though a far tougher problem as most countries that try and live by moderately liberal values are finding....there also seems to be little mood for anything more draconian among large parts of British politics (read also European politics)  and indeed the population as a whole..slightly more surprisingly in some ways.

Irish

That medication the nurse gave you hasn’t worked.

You first witter on about tiny micro policies in U.K.
I.e. racist violent criminals going to jail
The majority of over 67s no longer getting a tax payer funded handout
About 5,000 prisoners being released after 40% instead of 50% of sentence.


Then you talk about “the bigger picture “ and an inquiry “ into the way Britain was being run.”
Obviously the scope for any inquiry wouldn’t be to vaguely look “ into the way Britain was being run.“

Nice link to this “inquiry “ story. Perhaps it got lost with the “And finally a dog who looks like Karl Marx” story.

Lie down & seek help.

lol. Right wingers are suddenly talking about coalition now that they don't have control any more. Bless. Just five more years to go lads.

Indeed^ Tory and Brexit supporters should have their votes rescinded in an ideal world after what they have done to the UK.Instead now  bleating on about something else as the root cause of all evil when in fact they were the halfwits who implemented todays woes.

Hang yer heads in shame for what you have done.

Tory or Labour is irrelevant

This Labour lot will do exactly what the Tories have done.

They will do what they think is right for people they need to vote them in.

Problem is ..... it does not benefit the whole country

The Country comes second to their own personal needs and ambitions

They put themselves in front of their country

They know the British governance need reform ..... its been known for years

In fact M P's told themselves the UK system of Government needed reform 2022

They even voted on it, agreed it .....but done feck all about it

Agree in the main Irishone, donations from individuals to parties is also very questionable and shouldn't be allowed.

Once again Mexico your childish insults demean your point , now feck off and get yerself blocked on someone elses account

What terror offence has he been charged with?

As he awaited trial over his alleged involvement in the Southport stabbings, Rudakubana was charged with production of a biological toxin, ricin, Merseyside Police revealed in a conference on Tuesday.

The force said he had also been charged with possession of information likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing to commit an act of terrorism, although the attack has not been declared as a terrorist incident.

The charges followed searches of his home in Banks, said Merseyside Police Chief Constable Serena Kennedy told the conference, who said the terror offence relates to a PDF file entitled Military Studies In The Jihad Against The Tyrants, The Al Qaeda Training Manual.

Kennedy said it was “certainly not the case” that police were deciding to keep information from the public and said she wanted to reassure communities that police are committed to getting justice and to being open and transparent.

The attack has not been declared as a terrorist incident by counter-terror police, Kennedy said. She added: “I recognise that these new charges may lead to speculation. The matter for which Axel Rudakubana has been charged under the Terrorism Act does not require motive to be established.

“For a matter to be declared as a terrorist incident, motivation would need to be established. I would strongly advise anyone against speculating as to the motivation in this case. The criminal proceedings against Axel Rudakubana are live and he has a right to a fair trial.”



quelle surprise

The force said he had also been charged with possession of information likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing to commit an act of terrorism, although the attack has not been declared as a terrorist incident.


There are no words for these utterly wet, contemptable, dripping apologists.

Oh and a deeply cynical attempt to bury it under the budget news.

This story's come on quite a bit (as we knew it would) from the original laughable tall tale (which only morons and Progressives believed) that the alleged killer was a lovely boyo Welsh Christian lad who never missed an edition of  "Songs of Praise" and was known to loudly sing  "Bread of Heaven" wearing his red replica shirt when given any chance to do so, etc etc.

Altogether tot unlike that other North-West of England fairy story that involved a supposed "Christian convert" (try Islamist Terrorist Suicide Bomber) who got blown up in a taxi outside a hospital, thanks eternally to a quick-thinking heroic driver. The Progressives as I recall quickly offered up various imaginative excuses for the incident. Local "Gang Warfare" was hastily blamed by at least one local Progressive halfwit, followed by even more ridiculous conspiracies after Boris Johnson rightly praised the driver.

Oh what a tangled web we weave...

Apparently the "Welsh Christian" today  exercised his inalienable right not to have to answer a load of impertinent questions. Or was it just laryngitis?

I'm certain the Progressives will be interpreting his actions  in the most sympathetic possible manner.

MPs gagged from asking questions about it in the house, is this an unusual procedure?

Take the public for idiots - "you don't need to know" - and that subverts one of the key functions of the justice system and undermines confidence in the law.

The speaker of the house was in controversy only last year for making what many believed was a dubious decision that covered another inconvenient truth.

He said he would make time to debate this latest issue when appropriate (after a verdict I expect) so we shall see.
But be under no illusions, time won’t dilute this one, people are taking notes.

As we know justice runs as fast or as slow as the authorities want
Surely the trial should have started now instead of being kicked into january next year as I cant see what the complications are. The police would have gathered all the evidence on this case very quickly given its severity

unitedbiscuits 31 Oct 24 07:49 
Take the public for idiots - "you don't need to know"

...........


Isn't this more than keeping people in the dark though. People rioted because they thought
they had yet another Islamic terrorist in their midst. The Police and authorities said,
or seriously implied, that this was not the case. They knew it was the case.

Oct 31, 2024 -- 8:11AM, saddo wrote:

unitedbiscuits 31 Oct 24 07:49

He wasn't in our midst, he was under arrest. It doesn't justify the unrest. But the restriction preventing the naming of Axel Muganwa Rudakubana gave the agitators fuel for the fire. The news embargo later seems standard but stupid imo.

He was in someone's midst, living among decent people while plotting to kill them in more than one fashion.

The pdf file is a file prepared by USA secret services and not a direct
terrorism file.

Whether he thought that a work around or was something he stumbled upon
will be for our police and services to discover.

If such stuff is readily available to nutters then, err, why?

Was Axle on any Security Watch Lists , does any one Know 

Perhaps thats why there has been such a Delay ?

Time to spin why nothing was done about him ..

Mind you with 40,000 Plus on lists ,the security services are very busy

I wonder how many of these Unknown People arriving each day ,end up on these Watch lists ?

And why are the Media still putting up pictures of a 12 year old Kid in a school Uniform

They couldn't let it be known quick enough that he was infact a christian

Very strange

Dont remember seeing any pictures of other Murderers or Terrorists for that matter, in their School uniforms

That's the other thing. This country has to spend a fortune on counter-terrorism surveillance; that's the price of projecting the Israeli flag onto 10 Downing St.
If it *wasn't* a terrorist attack, it wasn't money wasted.

S hit, so that’s why all the sectarianism in other countries blow each others mosques up, kidnap children for slaves and generally punish with abandon their own people.

Because Israel flag was projected onto Big Ben

My mistake: - that comment landed on the wrong thread. (still applies however)

The Pretendy Welsh Christian is supposedly scheduled for another court appearance today.

Amidst all the censorship so far, let's all hope that today we will at least be allowed to hear him give a spirited  rendition of "Sospan Fach", "Cwm Rhondda" and above all  "Calon Lan" which always moistens my eyes.

If only my Sainted Ancestors and The Fallen were alive to see this day of Cultural Enrichment.

Still no recent photo used when this was on the news just an artist impression

The handling of the communications on this trial by the police has been woeful. People told to shut up as it might prejudice the trial yet other pre trial arrests are covered in detail on the news with no mention of the threat of prejudicing the trial

The public knew everything there was to know about, for example, Ian Huntley way before his trial, yet that never seemed to bother government or media. Never bothered the Judge and Jury either.

I daresay a few Progressives still carry a torch for him, particularly when a few newspapers reported he was converting to a Peaceful Religion, and some even informed us he was considering a transgender future.

the communications left a massive hole  in the publics knowledge which social media was more than happy to fill
These public bodies need to understand they cant control social media only try and manage it. The police saying people shouldnt speculate meant that people would speculate even more.

I see the English Taliban are out today

800 years since Magna Carta and these loons still do not know or understand our history or Law.

They have more in common with the Taliban than “ British Values “

Interesting comments alun made about the child abused in the Anglican Church

… oh that’s right he didn’t even comment on it. Why is that I wonder? Doesn’t suit the hate agenda maybe?