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casemoney
07 Jun 24 17:27
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Date Joined: 04 Aug 06
| Topic/replies: 62,662 | Blogger: casemoney's blog
Mishal Husain hosts a General Election debate between leading figures from the seven biggest political parties

The seven-handed debate will take place in front of an audience which reflects the broad electoral map of the UK , Righty Oh
Pause Switch to Standard View BBC Election Debate
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Report MALAY June 8, 2024 1:39 PM BST
did he get his expertise on a whats app message "privatise cash to be made, fcuk the poor"
Report Cider June 8, 2024 1:42 PM BST
Political leaders determine strategical leadership (meant to). Not operational.

He didn't state that we had to follow the French model, simply that it is more successful than ours for the same resources. There are plenty to pick from. The vast majority of the most successful are insurance based where the shirkers and the least fortunate don't pay for their insurance.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- June 8, 2024 1:47 PM BST
French pay more tax, don't they.
Report Cider June 8, 2024 1:48 PM BST
AU example

The healthcare system at a glance

Australia’s healthcare system is one of the most comprehensive in the world. It offers a range of services from general and preventative health, through to treating more complex conditions that may need a specialist or hospital care.

The system has two major parts: the public health system, and the private health system. When you need care, you might access it through one of the two systems, or a mix of both.

Let’s explore what they look like:

The public system is made up of a number of components, including public hospitals, community-based services, and affiliated health organisations largely owned and governed by state and territory governments. Australian citizens, permanent residents, and people from countries covered by Reciprocal Health Care Agreements (refer to ‘Healthcare for international visitors’ for more information) access care within the public health system for free or at a lower cost through Medicare (funded by tax).

The private system includes health service providers that are owned and managed privately, such as private hospitals, specialist medical and allied health, and pharmacies.

While the public system is funded by local, state and federal governments, the private system is funded by a combination of:

Private health insurers (covering people with hospital policies)Patients (covering their own expenses)Medicare (towards part of the cost of medical professionals)Sources like WorkCover and TAC (for people covered by statutory schemes)Other government and private funding
In the lead up to and during a hospital visit, health professionals, including doctors and specialists, can provide treatment through either the public or the private system.
Report MALAY June 8, 2024 1:51 PM BST
Cider in fairness never seen the BBC television but I think the UK NHS is something for their citizens to proud of, it's far superior to most countries if not all, more important than a royal family.
GL Cider racing on.
Report flat16 June 8, 2024 1:57 PM BST
What you pay your licence for:
To screen the audience for the debate last night ,seemed to be a shedload of Welsh and Scottish Nationalists in but no Reform supporters currently polling 1:7.
Sure a tribe of woke ,leftie ex students had spent hours grilling the invited audience to make sure the perceived bigots and racists don't get in.
Allahu akkbar.
Report Cider June 8, 2024 2:00 PM BST
Triumph of propaganda MALAY. People are naturally inclined to be ultra sympathetic to those who try to put them back together if ill. However it fails at general good health and what they call elective surgery (ie technically non urgent). If you are wiped out in a car accident and there is emergency trauma needs, they are generally good. But most people need non urgent trauma assistance or primary care.
Report SirNorbertClarke June 8, 2024 2:30 PM BST
Cider
Norbert, why do you post such object (sic) nonsense.


Let's take just one example, Farage put forward the public/private health model in France that achieves miles better result at the same overall cost per head, in relation to solving NHS endemic failure.


Who else on the panel offered up a solution ?



Funding ain't the problem!

Governments keep spunking billions into the NHS and the waiting times just get longer.

The  only solution is to go and ask the people who do the actual work how things could be done better.
The management have failed!
Report MALAY June 8, 2024 2:31 PM BST
Cider
you don't need to educate myself on workers comp in Australia, they go for referral, minor injury and it costs the business a fortune, health surveillance the same, total rip off.
The only good thing about Australia is it tops up the corporate tan,Costs a fortune to employ people. Waste of time
Report Cider June 8, 2024 2:37 PM BST
Elective surgery waiting times

For almost all intended procedures waiting times increased compared to both 2021–22 and 2018–19.

In 2022–23:

50% of patients were admitted for elective surgery within 49 days, an increase from 40 days in 2021–22 and 41 days in 2018–19
Report Cider June 8, 2024 2:38 PM BST
here you're lucky to get a gp appointment within 49 days!
Report Cider June 8, 2024 2:41 PM BST
i had to have a blood test this week, and that was a wait of over 3 weeks
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 2:54 PM BST

Jun 8, 2024 -- 1:16PM, Cider wrote:


Where's the evidence for this?Norbert claimed Farage had 'absolutely no solutions'. He put that one forward in the debate. I thought you watched it.Whether the solution would work, or the assertions within it are entirely correct is a different question, isn't it. Hint, giving the nhs even more money to waste is not a solution. They've never had more funding and never been as poor as the are now at delivery. Mirroring other countries' systems that have far more successful outcomes is a solution. There are plenty to choose from, in addition to the French system.


the public/private health model in France that achieves miles better result at the same overall cost per head

Where's the evidence for this?

You'd have to be a complete idiot to read this as I was asking as to whether Farage actually said this, it's blindingly obvious I was asking where is the evidence for his assertion. Do you have any?

Report Cider June 8, 2024 3:00 PM BST
Charlie, I realise you are not always the sharpest knife in the draw. But what I contested was the claim from Norbert that Farage didn't suggest any solutions. I've demonstrated that he did. ¿Comprende?
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 3:02 PM BST
If I'm not the sharpest then you surely are the bluntest. Putting forward an idea which isn't true is just talking bollocks much like you do.
Report SirNorbertClarke June 8, 2024 3:32 PM BST
Farage wants the UK to adopt a French policy Laugh
Report PorcupineorPineapple June 8, 2024 4:30 PM BST
I saw a newspaper letter re-posted online somewhere last week. I'll post it if I can find it, but it was roughly this...

A guy went into hospital for surgery. On the ward afterwards there were only three of the ten beds being used. Wondering why it was so empty given the huge waiting lists, he asked a nurse. The answer was that they had to work around the surgeon's schedule, and the surgeon now works privately two days a week so the ward's effectively part time.

The sad fact is that private health has already infiltrated the country and is having very real and negative effects on the rest of us.

As for the future, we're never going to hear it on tv programmes like this. Don't know why we're having these televised debates, or why anyone bothers watching them. Just a waste of time. They get given some seconds and are trained to put in a particular soundbite or two that will be reinforced to the press in the spin room straight after. Any notion of an actual debate or of discussing policy seriously is just nonsense.

Which is a shame. Cos if you actually take a minute to listen to Streeting talk about the NHS there's a fair bit there and a lot of it is perfectly sensible. It's not just broad headlines like chuck x amount of money, and it's not just ideological bollocks like follow France. It's actually real stuff by educated and experienced people.
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 4:48 PM BST
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/13/forget-the-french-system-the-nhs-is-fairer

The Commonwealth Fund report in 2020 shows France spending 20% per person more on health than the UK ($5,154 compared with $4,290 [£3,376]). If the UK had this level of investment, we would have better access to health services, as we did between 1997 and 2010 when Labour were last in power.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64216269
France's health system under pressure of increasing demands

President Macron has promised that 600,000 chronically-ill patients currently living in France without a doctor will have access to one - or to a treatment team - by the end of this year.

The only problem with the NHS is its underfunding.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- June 8, 2024 4:56 PM BST
Tories have run down health service as they did with dentists
before to drive private over state.

Classifying dementia and Alzheimer's care as social
care is another thing.

Illness needs to be treated, cured or cared for and if its
under an umbrella and funded centrally and administed
in a joined up cost effective manner then we would
all be better off.

I wouldn't have minded having a crack at fixing it
but am too old now. But it's not that difficult
if you give the right person the job.
Report Mexico June 8, 2024 5:12 PM BST
Elderly social care in U.K. is a total mess.

Both Labour & Tories are to blame as been going on for decades.
Put the senior members of the main parties in a locked room & feed them through a serving hatch until they come to an agreement.

Very much doubt Starmer will do anything meaningful as needs money and there are some genuine complex problems.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- June 8, 2024 5:16 PM BST
You need to depoliticise it, appoint a head
of nhs as per head of bank of England.

Then funding needs to be sorted by them and
parliamentary committee representing all parties
in England, and guaranteed by government.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- June 8, 2024 5:17 PM BST
Don't appoint tory stooges!!!
Report Mexico June 8, 2024 5:24 PM BST
Even a high maximum would help…

I.e. if you know it can’t ever cost more than £70,000 then insurance companies can get involved.

It is complicated, hence the leaders don’t want to get involved. Agree it is very political….Theresa May tried something but was just criticised by opposition.

Is a total mess and the population is getting older. Guess nothing meaningful will happen in next Parliament.
Report SirNorbertClarke June 8, 2024 5:29 PM BST

The only problem with the NHS is its underfunding.



No it's not.

The NHS has to learn to work smarter and spread best practice.

Plus without better Social Care bed blocking will never end
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- June 8, 2024 5:37 PM BST
Spot on nobby
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 5:38 PM BST
Ok, I could tone it down to by far the most serious problem the NHS is underfunding.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- June 8, 2024 5:45 PM BST
Oh for sure it's underfunded.

But it needs to be run better too, to get
value for tax dollars.
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 5:55 PM BST
Prompted by Farage's statement about France's healthcare and the NHS I started looking for data to support him either way, I didn't find much but one stat that I thought was surprising was the difference on the amount spent by each on admin; the UK spending is lower than average compared to other countries.

Comparing the NHS to the health care systems of other countries: five charts
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/blogs/comparing-nhs-to-health-care-systems-other-countries
.
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 6:00 PM BST
Similarly:


Per capita expenditure on governance and health system and financing administration in select high-income countries in 2021

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1264127/per-capita-health-administrative-costs-by-country/
.
Report Cider June 8, 2024 6:11 PM BST
great stuff, Charlie Plain

Report Cider June 8, 2024 6:12 PM BST
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 6:16 PM BST
I do realise that as I posted the link you idiot. I stand by the major problem with the NHS is underfunding. I still see no evidence that the French system of healthcare is better than the NHS.
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 6:17 PM BST
I  sshould have added at less cost.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- June 8, 2024 6:19 PM BST
USA got more scanners, more deaths

Clearly that's not the issue.
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 6:20 PM BST
I forget US healthcare they're a law unto themselves.
Report Cider June 8, 2024 6:20 PM BST
Report Cider June 8, 2024 6:22 PM BST
Thanks Charlie. So your data backs up what he stated. UK has far worse outcomes for similar levels of funding.
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 6:24 PM BST
I'll think you'll see that French GDP spending is higher than UK especially if you could be bothered to find it for the last two years. You're too lazy to find your own data.
Report Cider June 8, 2024 6:24 PM BST
Avoidable mortality rates is the key stat, one assumes !
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- June 8, 2024 6:25 PM BST
Ha ha cider, it's long term.

That graph shows we are miles behind France in spending
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 6:25 PM BST
Avoidable indeed but you need money for that.
Report Cider June 8, 2024 6:26 PM BST
That mortality table is an embarrassment for our wonderful NHS.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- June 8, 2024 6:26 PM BST
There's a surge around covid where tories were
filling their pockets selling dodgy ppe to NHS.
Report edy June 8, 2024 6:27 PM BST
One to two percent each year long-term is a decent amount imo. In the OECD reports

https://www.oecd.org/unitedkingdom/health-at-a-glance-United-Kingdom-EN.pdf
https://www.oecd.org/france/health-at-a-glance-France-EN.pdf

France's 12.1% are ~$6600 per capita
UK's 11.3% are ~$5500 per capita

....I think the french model is more fair, but I don't think it is the reason for the french model providing better quality. A lot of that will be consistently for a long time spending more money per capita.
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 6:29 PM BST
The UK has fewer doctors and nurses
Another area where the UK is strikingly different to comparator countries is in staffing. The below chart shows fewer doctors and fewer nurses per 1,000 people than the average in our basket. While some countries do, for example, have fewer nurses, many counterbalance that by having more doctors. The UK is remarkable as it scores low on both.
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 6:32 PM BST
We need more doctors, more nurses and better equipment which means more spending.
Report Cider June 8, 2024 6:32 PM BST
We have fewer doctors, fewer nurses, less equipment, lower admin spending, but spend almost the same overall Grin
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 6:33 PM BST
You got the last bit wrong about spending LaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- June 8, 2024 6:35 PM BST
The only time we matched Frances spending was tories filling their pockets...
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 6:37 PM BST
Same source:

These five charts give a flavour of what the full report shows: the UK does better than comparable countries in some areas, and worse in others. There is little evidence that one individual country or model of health care system performs better than another across the board. Countries improve health care for their populations mainly by reforming their existing model of health care rather than adopting an alternative. Rather than unwinding the NHS, we should seek to improve it, and there is a lot to learn from other countries when doing so.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- June 8, 2024 6:37 PM BST
If you take area under the line you have total spend.

If you take the area between the two lines you
have the amount by which France have out spent us.
Report Cider June 8, 2024 6:39 PM BST
The spending is not aligned with outcomes is it. We're almost where France is at but they are massively outperforming us.

Under our model it can only get worse with aging population and mass immigration, along with never ending technical and drug advancements. The whole thing needs remodelling.
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 6:39 PM BST
There's more if you click on: Read the report (in the orange box at the bottom).
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 6:40 PM BST
We're almost where France is at but they are massively outperforming us.

Where are they massively outperforming us?
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- June 8, 2024 6:43 PM BST
Of course it is aligned between UK and france

They are reaping benefits of investment in healthcare
by better outcome.

You can't just match France next year and expect to
match outcome.

Some of our problems are locked in and will take
years to be removed from outcomes.

I got my bowel screening letter today, a welcome
NHS initiative, but until it's rolled out down
the ages it will miss so many cases.
Report Mexico June 8, 2024 6:44 PM BST
Nobody are prepared to make any fundamental changes to NHS & are not prepared to be honest to the electorate because they “can’t handle the truth”

NHS gets just under £200bn a year. Give them an extra £10bn , it will just go on wage rises, pensions etc.

The NHS provides every sort of treatment, many of which are not life threatening. Nobody is prepared to change this , so we have a system where people wait a year for surgery.

Many choose private health insurance which keeps down the nhs queues, if nhs gets stacks more money, then fewer people would pay extra for private care and the queue will increase again.
We are living longer, and expect care .
Report Cider June 8, 2024 6:44 PM BST
The chart has a helpful title for you, I even more helpfully posted it on the thread:

'The UK has higher avoidable mortality rates than its peers'
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 6:45 PM BST
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/13/forget-the-french-system-the-nhs-is-fairer

The Commonwealth Fund report in 2020 shows France spending 20% per person more on health than the UK ($5,154 compared with $4,290 [£3,376]). If the UK had this level of investment, we would have better access to health services, as we did between 1997 and 2010 when Labour were last in power.
Report Cider June 8, 2024 6:46 PM BST
lol.
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 6:47 PM BST
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64216269

But according to the World Health Organization, almost half of French doctors are above the age of 55 and approaching retirement. In the UK, that figure is around 15%.
...
President Macron has promised that 600,000 chronically-ill patients currently living in France without a doctor will have access to one - or to a treatment team - by the end of this year.

But the loss of medics, whether from hospital wards or places like Olliergues, is France's most pressing health problem, and it won't be easy to cure.
Report Cider June 8, 2024 6:49 PM BST
Only liberalists couch public spending as investment. As for quoting the guardian in a rational debate....
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- June 8, 2024 6:50 PM BST
That's the problem Mexico, without proper management
there is waste.

If the private surgeons have no punters they will
be free to work for nhs

Win win...
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 6:51 PM BST

Jun 8, 2024 -- 6:49PM, Cider wrote:


Only liberalists couch public spending as investment. As for quoting the guardian in a rational debate....


Presumably you've read the BBC article.

Report Charlie June 8, 2024 6:55 PM BST
I've read many times, by various people, that the admin is to blame for the NHS not performing as it should. If you believe the stats in the articles I gave then it appears that we should be spending more on admin. Personally I think we need more doctors, more nurses and better equipment.
Report Cider June 8, 2024 6:55 PM BST
I can see the part you quoted. Not relevant. You can pick out any system in the world and it will have challenges. Ours are fundamental and systematic. The world has outgrown it.
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 6:58 PM BST
Which part is relevant this:

GPs want a doubling of the consultation fee from €25 to €50. The government has said it is willing to look at an increase, but not one this big.


or this:
Some hospitals are reporting up to 90% of their staff on "sick leave protest" at the conditions.

And France's second-largest health union has called an "unlimited walkout" this week, following a fortnight of strikes by French GPs.
Report Cider June 8, 2024 7:00 PM BST
Administrative costs refer to the costs associated with the governance and administration of the health system and the collection and pooling of financial resources by different health financing schemes. Administrative costs of health providers (eg, hospitals) are not included.

This is what it states. I should imagine doing like for like comparisons is virtually impossible. For example where NHS work is farmed out to private surgeries as they missed their targets, how is that administration cost counted.
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 7:01 PM BST
Anyway, there is no substance to farage's claim that: the public/private health model in France that achieves miles better result at the same overall cost per head

Which is where we started from, but you Cider, being gullible, believed it without question.
Report Cider June 8, 2024 7:02 PM BST
Quite the contrary, you proved the point. However, as I stated numerous times now. I was challenging the allegation that he did not put forward solutions. I was not challenging or promoting the substance of them.
Report edy June 8, 2024 7:03 PM BST
One thing about a system like the french one is that the public insurers are more free and flexible to change what is deducted from your salary on a year-by-year basis without the government having to touch the overall tax structure. I think that's a positive.
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 7:07 PM BST
Cider
That's not good enough. Anyone can put forward a solution but if there is no substance behind it then it's not really a solution. It's like Sunak saying Labour will put up taxes by £2000 a year, there is no substance to it.
Report edy June 8, 2024 7:07 PM BST
But really....the specific way on whether you directly use tax money or whether you have a dedicated health fund that's financed from income deductions....I don't think that's what ultimately makes all the difference in the world. Rather it is how much money you have available and how it's spend.

What also happens in a dual system with public and private insurers, at least in Germany where doctors serve both kinds of patients usually, is that the privately insured tend to somewhat make up the otherwise sometimes problematic funding from the public funds.
Report Cider June 8, 2024 7:07 PM BST
As some people who read what I write are well aware of, I'm a strong advocate of lifestyle choices being correlated with individual optional risk. If you decide to ride a motorbike, you should pay more in as there is a strong possibility of you ending up in the back of an ambulance as a result of it.
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 7:08 PM BST

Jun 8, 2024 -- 7:03PM, edy wrote:


One thing about a system like the french one is that the public insurers are more free and flexible to change what is deducted from your salary on a year-by-year basis without the government having to touch the overall tax structure. I think that's a positive.


I'm not arguing over the French healthcare system and whether it's good or not, apparently it's a good system.

Report Cider June 8, 2024 7:09 PM BST
Everyone in my life who has regularly ridden motorcycles has ended up in hospital because of it.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- June 8, 2024 7:12 PM BST
It's not riding a bike that's dangerous it's other road users
and the rider of the bike.
Report Cider June 8, 2024 7:12 PM BST
So what edy touches on, the insurance cost should be exactly the same type of risk model as if you drive a an aygo or a ferrari. Take more risk fine, the cost should be correlated. Be obese fine, the cost of your health insurance should be correlated with that increased optional risk.
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 7:13 PM BST

Jun 8, 2024 -- 7:07PM, Cider wrote:


As some people who read what I write are well aware of, I'm a strong advocate of lifestyle choices being correlated with individual optional risk. If you decide to ride a motorbike, you should pay more in as there is a strong possibility of you ending up in the back of an ambulance as a result of it.


I've heard you say that many times but it's a far too difficult a concept to apply in the real world and we're straying  too far from the topic. I'll leave it there.

Report edy June 8, 2024 7:14 PM BST
It's very China social credit-y or at least transparent patient.
Report edy June 8, 2024 7:17 PM BST
If you have to tell the state about every (repeated) dangerous activity or unhealthy habit. Might also be counterproductive if people choose to not become part of the local soccer team because they have to pay a premium for a much bigger chance of all sorts of injuries and surgeries in comparison to your friendly person that lounges around writing messages on the betfair forum.

Will never win the world champs that way.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- June 8, 2024 7:20 PM BST
Then there's dna faults you could charge for.
Report edy June 8, 2024 7:22 PM BST
Well, we will hopefully get rid of those when we have advanced technology to the point where we can outlaw natural reproduction.
Report Cider June 8, 2024 7:25 PM BST
There's a difference between bad luck and inherently dangerous activity. Playing football is not inherently dangerous. Riding a motorbike is, riding a horse is. I'm talking about people who willingly choose to add obviously adverse risk to their lives.
Report Cider June 8, 2024 7:28 PM BST
People who end up in a&e through trauma are quite often doing such activity. Cycling, motorcycling, hiking, horse riding.
Report PorcupineorPineapple June 8, 2024 7:31 PM BST
Maybe we just have a joy quotient.


We regularly test people for how much joy they're getting out of life and we tax them until there's none left.



Those sunlit uplands
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 7:37 PM BST
I think being a pedestrian tops the list.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- June 8, 2024 7:43 PM BST
Until 1956, French children attending school were served wine on their lunch breaks.

Still reaping the benefits
Report edy June 8, 2024 7:44 PM BST
Would expect, without really being able to back it up though, that there are more incidents of injury per minute playing football than per minute riding a motorcycle. A broken toe here, a torn MCL or head trauma there.

Severity per incident is most likely higher on motorcycles, but hey....that might well save costs overall. If the person is spread all over the street in individual parts, no need to really spend all that much money on that person anymore.
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 7:45 PM BST
We got milk and they got wine. That's not fair.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- June 8, 2024 7:46 PM BST
In 1956 drinking alcohol was banned in French schools, though that ban only applied to children under 14. Alcoholic beverages were definitively banned from schools in 1981.
Report edy June 8, 2024 7:46 PM BST
The woke got to the french.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- June 8, 2024 7:46 PM BST
Playing rugby in uk is far more dangerous than playing football.
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 7:47 PM BST
Sky diving is quite safe especially in tandem.
Report edy June 8, 2024 7:47 PM BST
Ok, in the UK there's rugby, true.
Report edy June 8, 2024 7:55 PM BST

Jun 8, 2024 -- 7:31PM, PorcupineorPineapple wrote:


Maybe we just have a joy quotient.We regularly test people for how much joy they're getting out of life and we tax them until there's none left. Those sunlit uplands


That is exactly the plan of the marxists.

Report edy June 8, 2024 7:55 PM BST
Or so I heard.
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 7:55 PM BST
Don't work in agriculture or construction as they're far too dangerous.
Report edy June 8, 2024 7:59 PM BST
That's what the employers pay extra accident insurances for.....or not in the UK?
Report edy June 8, 2024 7:59 PM BST
mandatory
Report Charlie June 8, 2024 8:19 PM BST
Don't know.
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