Vlod has Upset the POLISH

Let's do this step by step

Probably a few in the Crowd with the Picture of Some guy with a Tash on their T Shirts Grin

I'm not surprised.

I don’t mind the polish .. some of the women are very beautiful



But don’t have the audacity to critique English men .. we are English
That puts us above any other country in the world .. including polish men - end of

Are you a big fan of Poland's 2014 ESC entry, lfc?

Look let’s get this clear .. English men .. and women
are the pinnacle of the evolutionary chemistry .. FACT

Is that why you are such a fat nation?

edy .. I am very slim .. and when a young pled with. No Z a money
Could run out in the rain and the cold -,with no money .. 4?minute coz mile -,you now who did that ?
I thank genetics … be thankful

Kids these days just don't know gratitude no more.

4 minute mile .. WHO ? Did that edy ?

Usain Bolt!

The steps being:

1) 1992 Ukraine (with Crimea subsumed) is born.

2) 1997 Russia and Ukraine sign a treaty of friendship and support.

3) 2008 Ukraine apply to join NATO, driving coach and horses through the tissue of amity.

4) Not sure when Ukraine to the EU.

5) Scores of protesters die in Kiev $5 billion of CIA rumoured to be behind the uprising. The democratically elected President of Ukraine is forced to flee for his life. A de facto Ukraine Govt, hostile to Russia, stands in place.

6) Crimeans, fearing ethnic cleansing, appeal to Russia to safeguard their homeland.

7) Crimeans side with Russia in a referendum  - 95% of an 83% turnout.

8) 2019 - Zelensky wins the Ukraine election. Vows to find a peaceful resolution with Russia. Something of a trojan-horse, in retrospect.


That's all past and we are where we are. As a neutral, I should say that the territories Russia has gained since 2022 must be the limit of Russia's ambitions. Gives Russia a land-bridge to Crimea, which seems only fair, and what the natives desire. If we could stop the conflict now, with current occupation forces holding sway, that wouldn't be perfect but not a bad resolution.

Above all, I think it none of the UK's business but, when it was our business, at the end of British Empire in India, we opted for partition. Rough and ready as that was, it was probably the best solution.

Subsumed in step 1 is interesting language. Can you elaborate?

Bolt ? you can’t get beyond genetics .. he has it
Nevertheless .. England .. the gold ribbon events . 800 m
15OO yards … we are supreme … always
Coe ,Ovett

No country … ever for the next 1000 years will produce
anyone .. such as those ENGLISH ,,, people.. end of

Though, scrap that. Let's stick with you answering the 7:32 PM BST post.

Let's establish how truly neutral you are here.

Let’s get this clear

No country , anywhere in the world

Is as evolutionary advanced .. as England 
It’s genetics .. end of

Why is Wales less advanced?

Subsumed in step 1 is interesting language. Can you elaborate?

Yes, Crimea was "gifted" to Ukraine by Kruschev in 1954 to commemorate 300 years of union between Russia and Ukraine. That is longer than the Union between Scotland and England. What Kruschev never envisaged was Ukraine become a state opposed to Russia. It was Ukraine that turned, not Russia.

Oct 6, 2023 -- 2:09PM, edy wrote:

Though, scrap that. Let's stick with you answering the 7:32 PM BST post.

.

Look let’s get this clear .. English men .. and women
are the pinnacle of the evolutionary chemistry .. FACT

Yes, I think most Germans tacitly accept this.

Well, to be fair, I did outline an eight step timeline, edy.

Yes, you did, but I didn't ask for that eight step outline. I'm trying to establish (for now) whether you agree with it happening that

1) Russia invaded Crimea with unmarked personnell of their military. In bad faith they initially tried to claim it wasn't their military.
2) They held parliamentarians hostage
3) They installed their own puppet, Aksyonov, through that hostage situation

As evidence for Crimea seeking help, you quoted something about that installed puppet

unitedbiscuits • October 5, 2023 6:58 PM BST
On 1 March 2014, Aksyonov said that he would exercise control of all Ukrainian military and security installations on the peninsula. He also asked Putin for "assistance in ensuring peace and tranquillity" in Crimea.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26397323

You seem very in favour of calling certain things a coup. Yet, I do not recall you, a repeatedly self declared neutral, call this kind of thing a coup. In fact, not a word of criticism of this. Can you explain that to me?

And not just not a word of criticism, you in fact eagerly try to skirt it.

Why?

May I point you to the following to get a wider and clearer view of the issue than regurgitating what has been a narrow and selective version put forward.

https://en.wikipedia.org..._the_Russian_Federation

It will also help provide actual sequence of events as well as some of the rationale and thinking.

Crimea was an autonomous state and the people supported Yanukovych and when he was ousted for not joining the Europeans and civil unrest broke out the Crimean Autonomous Council condemned the protests saying they were "threatening political stability in the country". They also urged the crimeans to strengthen ties with Russia.

On 4 February 2014, the Presidium of the Supreme Council considered holding a referendum on the peninsula's status, and asked the Russian government to guarantee the vote. The Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) responded by opening a criminal case to investigate the possible "subversion" of Ukraine's territorial integrity.

On top of all that the removal of Yanukovych lacked the official three quarter vote required for such an action and thus the input government was illegitimate.

Oct 6, 2023 -- 2:29PM, edy wrote:

And not just not a word of criticism, you in fact eagerly try to skirt it.

.

So I ask once more: You seem very in favour of calling certain things a coup. Yet, I do not recall you, a repeatedly self declared neutral, call this kind of thing a coup. In fact, not a word of criticism of this. Can you explain that to me?

To be absolutely truthful, I just copy and pasted the above. We're not lawyers.

What I'm saying is, it's not a black and white issue. I don't particularly like Russians nor Ukranians. So what is it we are supposed to be fighting for here? The humiliation of Russia? Have we forgotten how that backfired with Germany a hundred years ago?

Oct 6, 2023 -- 2:36PM, edy wrote:

So I ask once more: You seem very in favour of calling certain things a coup. Yet, I do not recall you, a repeatedly self declared neutral, call this kind of thing a coup. In fact, not a word of criticism of this. Can you explain that to me?

.

Why is a neutral so very keen on trying to display those happenings on Crimea as perfectly normal?

The constitutionality of Yanukovych's removal from office has been questioned by constitutional experts. Parliament did not vote to impeach the President, which would have involved formally charging Yanukovych with a crime, a review of the charge by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine, and a three-fourths majority vote in parliament—at least 338 votes in favor. The Ukrainian Constitution at this time (like many other constitutions) did not provide any stipulation about how to remove a president who is neither dead nor incapacitated, but is nonetheless absent or not fulfilling his duties. The lack of such provisions was a loophole.

Let's accept that was a coup for now. Why are you so very keen to not call the Crimea happenings a coup?

Let's accept that was a coup for now. Why are you so very keen to not call the Crimea happenings a coup?

Already answered upthread, edy. In 2014, in response to Ukraine's turning from a friend to a foe of Russia, the parliament in Crimea considered having a ref on ceding from Ukraine. Ukraine ruled this was "illegal" (that word again). When Ukraine deposed the President Crimea voted for, Crimea asked Russia for protection. You keep straining to convince readers that Crimea would have sided with Ukraine but for Russia's military intervention but, in reality, people in Crimea were far more worried about a rampant Ukraine carrying out ethnic cleansing in their own country,; and I dare say they still are.

You really are eager for a neutral. Really skirting hard and deflecting.

1) Russia invaded Crimea with unmarked personnell of their military. In bad faith they initially tried to claim it wasn't their military.
2) They held parliamentarians hostage
3) They installed their own puppet, Aksyonov, through that hostage situation

Why are you eager to call the Yanukovych ousting a coup, but at the same time you are neutrally incredibly eager to not put this kind of thing anywhere near coup territory?

Well, we're going round in circles and boring the wider readership to death (not that that has ever deterred you edy) but I think we have to look beyond the conflict to what shape the peace might make. Most hawks are creaming themselves at the prospect of the degradation of Russia. Again, I encourage readers to think how that works out. How did the humiliation of Germany work out a hundred years ago?

Oct 6, 2023 -- 3:06PM, edy wrote:

You really are eager for a neutral. Really skirting hard and deflecting.1) Russia invaded Crimea with unmarked personnell of their military. In bad faith they initially tried to claim it wasn't their military.2) They held parliamentarians hostage3) They installed their own puppet, Aksyonov, through that hostage situationWhy are you eager to call the Yanukovych ousting a coup, but at the same time you are neutrally incredibly eager to not put this kind of thing anywhere near coup territory?

You really, really, really are eager for a neutral to not talk about this and deflect hard instead. Which is the reason we are indeed somewhat going round in circles. That you ardently, for a neutral, decide certain things must not be said and acknowledged.

Must not be discussed indeed

I am perfectly happy to discuss the incursion but to pretend that the referendum would have had a different result if the Russian military were not there is unbelievable. If the last referendum was "illegitimate" do you want Crimea to hold another one?

I'm not talking about the referendum for now. Did you see me mention it in those latest posts? Exactly! I will be glad to talk about it later one, bu let's save that for later and not help you deflect once again. The current topic is your use of "coup" as a neutral.

edy • October 6, 2023 9:06 PM BST
You really are eager for a neutral. Really skirting hard and deflecting.

1) Russia invaded Crimea with unmarked personnell of their military. In bad faith they initially tried to claim it wasn't their military.
2) They held parliamentarians hostage
3) They installed their own puppet, Aksyonov, through that hostage situation

Why are you eager to call the Yanukovych ousting a coup, but at the same time you are neutrally incredibly eager to not put this kind of thing anywhere near coup territory?

Walk me through that. It's very fascinating.

And it only keeps growing in fascination value, the more a self declared neutral keeps trying to deflect because he feels it must not be discussed.

Is that all you have, edy? Blind equivalence and "my enemy's enemy must be my friend."

Oct 6, 2023 -- 3:42PM, edy wrote:

And it only keeps growing in fascination value, the more a self declared neutral keeps trying to deflect because he feels it must not be discussed.

.

1) Russia invaded Crimea with unmarked personnell of their military. In bad faith they initially tried to claim it wasn't their military.
2) They held parliamentarians hostage
3) They installed their own puppet, Aksyonov, through that hostage situation


If only you had started at 1). For your credibility. How many posts have you made on betfair, edy?

I did start with 1), but even then you did you very hardest to not discuss that point.

edy • October 6, 2023 7:32 PM BST
So either way....did Russia send military to invade in late February 2014 and, in bad faith, they told everyone it wasn't their military?

edy • October 6, 2023 7:32 PM BST
Let's do this step by step

How many posts have you made on betfair, edy?

271906 according to my profile.

The stakes are high then, this is your whole life..

Oh absolutely it is. Given your continued and desperate deflection, including this current attempt, not discussing it must mean something to you too though.

As this deflection thing is so much more effort for you than not deflecting....

It does. But special circumstances apply. I acknowledge that my country has never been a foe, nor occupied, by Russia. Did you grow up under the yoke of Russia? I cannot possibly relate to that.

Which is possibly why your perspective is blinded today.

....wow, more deflection!

I am shocked here, mate, so very shocked and surprised.

Though I am shocked at learning that you aren't British.

Or....well.....European.

Or rather....that you aren't from the vast majority of Europe. I really always thought you were British.

Can't really reply to your non sequiturs mate.

Did you grow up in East Germany?

I am from the GDR. As a next step you may tell me what your country of origin and possibly residence is and then we stop this deflection business and get back to

edy • October 6, 2023 9:06 PM BST
You really are eager for a neutral. Really skirting hard and deflecting.

1) Russia invaded Crimea with unmarked personnell of their military. In bad faith they initially tried to claim it wasn't their military.
2) They held parliamentarians hostage
3) They installed their own puppet, Aksyonov, through that hostage situation

Why are you eager to call the Yanukovych ousting a coup, but at the same time you are neutrally incredibly eager to not put this kind of thing anywhere near coup territory?

Walk me through that. It's very fascinating.

Oh for heavens sake wake up

Anyone from south Ireland .. or anyone who votes snp
Is a greater more  deceitful enemy .. than Russia

1) Russia invaded Crimea with unmarked personnell of their military. In bad faith they initially tried to claim it wasn't their military.
2) They held parliamentarians hostage
3) They installed their own puppet, Aksyonov, through that hostage situation

Why are you eager to call the Yanukovych ousting a coup, but at the same time you are neutrally incredibly eager to not put this kind of thing anywhere near coup territory?

Walk me through that. It's very fascinating.

See what you're doing there, edy, trying to conflate the coup in Kiev with Russia answering Crimea's call for assistance.


But let the reader, for a minute, free himself from small detail of your indignation:- How does the world get out of this?

You keep calling

1) Russia invaded Crimea with unmarked personnell of their military. In bad faith they initially tried to claim it wasn't their military.
2) They held parliamentarians hostage
3) They installed their own puppet, Aksyonov, through that hostage situation

a call for assitance instead of a coup. Why?

Also, no sharing your country of origin after you were eager to ask me?

Oct 6, 2023 -- 4:33PM, edy wrote:

You keep calling 1) Russia invaded Crimea with unmarked personnell of their military. In bad faith they initially tried to claim it wasn't their military.2) They held parliamentarians hostage3) They installed their own puppet, Aksyonov, through that hostage situationa call for assitance instead of a coup. Why?

After all, it is literally a military force taking a parliament hostage to install their own government.

I repeat to you that Crimea wishes to align with Russia. Want another referendum? Thought not.

This is undeniable.

So, if retaking Crimea is the basis of the West's support for Russia, the cause is doomed to failure.

Like Iraq and Afghanistan.

Oct 6, 2023 -- 4:34PM, edy wrote:

Also, no sharing your country of origin after you were eager to ask me?

Kids these days just don't have any manners.

Scotland.

Ah, and you fully identify a Scot and not at all as a Briton. Thank you.

Why do you think Russia felt the need to take the Crimean parliament hostage with its military and install their own government there?

And to do so by making their troops disguise as unmarked separatists.

If Crimeans and their parliamentarian representatives were eager for Russian help, why not....go in there as Russia and work with the parliamentarians instead of occupying parliament with rocket launchers and making them vote for e.g. a new Prime Minister of Russia's choice at gun point?

Ah, and you fully identify a Scot and not at all as a Briton.

No. I doubt anyone identifies as "a Briton." Go to bed.

Not tired yet.

You gotta admit that occupying parliament with your military (unmarked) and making parliamentarians vote for a new dude of your choosing is kind of at least a little bit dodgy, right?

You see, it's not as black and white regarding Crimea as you would like to pretend in your bad faith.

Bad faith? That is most unfair. I am all for giving people a second chance in matters of crucial national importance, especially when the margin is tight. And when the alternative to another vote is more killing, the case becomes compelling.

Can I just check that we're on the same page, edy? You want the people of Crimea to have a second referendum, right? Because, funnily enough, that is not part of the narrative in the West for prosecuting this war.

It's going to be instructive to watch supporters of legality and sovereignty in one war simultaneously defend illegal settlements, ethnic cleansing and the relentless degradation of the Palestinian people.

We faced it for centuries
Until peace agreement , same sh1t different wars
Destiny is all
That matters

I will be more than glad to answer about the second referendum once we talked about

edy • October 6, 2023 11:16 PM BST
You gotta admit that occupying parliament with your military (unmarked) and making parliamentarians vote for a new dude of your choosing is kind of at least a little bit dodgy, right?

AFTER Ukraine harried their democratically elected PM out of the country and illegally put another in place. That PM - Yankovitch? - was the overwhelming choice of the people of Crimea. Scores of lives had already been lost in the Kiev coup. No wonder the parliament of Crimea appealed for assistance.

NOW, this second referendum. I take it it has your full support?

You skirted the question....yet again, but I will still answer. Second referendum - sure they can hold one. Not quite Russia holds the territory and intimiates everyone obviously. You'd also have to somewhat reinstall the kidnapped and displaced population so that it resembles the population in 2014. Difficult, isn't it?

But to be perfectly clear because you keep, pardon the pun, dodging:

Invading with unmarked troops, denying it is your troops, occupying parliament with heavy guns and rocket launchers, stealing parliamentarian's voting cards to make false votes in their place and forcing present parliamentarians to vote for your own man.....dodgy or not from Russia?

*Not while Russia holds the territory and intimidates everyone obviously. Maybe if they can work out a UN organised and held referendum without Russian involvement.

What does it matter I acknowledge inconsistencies in the process in Crimea if you don’t recognise that that they were caused by the coup in Kiev?

So, your solution is:
1) take Crimea militarily
2) ethnic cleansing to reach a pro Ukrainian majority
3) second referendum

Thanks for clearing that up edy. At least of a piece with your support for the Israeli state.

Still dodging...man, you are some neutral.

A neutral that refuses to find fault in a nation hijacking a parliament and installing their own puppet leader with gun intimidation and stolen voting cards.

Neutrals just ain't what they used to be.

But ok, let's investigate the coup in Kyiv:

Is a country's population allowed to protest and ask for an early election?

Of course they are, edy, just as they are allowed to ask for a second referendum. But there is a legal process to follow.  That is kind of what a Parliament is for.

Is a sovereign country allowed - Via Parliament - to enact the will of 95% of its voters? Democracy and all that, edy.

Ok, so the coup was strictly what the parliamentarians in Kyiv did after Yanukovich had fled?

Also

unitedbiscuits • October 8, 2023 7:34 PM BST
Of course they are, edy, just as they are allowed to ask for a second referendum. But there is a legal process to follow.  That is kind of what a Parliament is for.

Is a sovereign country allowed - Via Parliament - to enact the will of 95% of its voters? Democracy and all that, edy.

You are still, in bad faith, pretending the 95% in the referendum was all proper instead of even the Russians themselves stating it was very much fake.

The results of referendum were questioned;[188] another report by Evgeny Bobrov, a member of the Russian President's Human Rights Council, suggested the official results were inflated and only 15% to 30% of Crimeans eligible to vote actually voted for the Russian option.[35][189][190]

To answer edy ‘s points in turn

1) Who was in control when Ukraine’s PM was harried out of the country is a murky area:- it wasn’t the parliamentarians who called off the troops put on the streets of Kiev to keep order. Some say $5 billion of CIA money was speaking loudest at that point.

2) I’m not saying the 95% result (nor the 52% in the U.K.) was all proper. But only one was questionable. That is the hard part for supporters wanting war for Ukraine to have Crimea:- the people there don’t want it.

Ok, so what exactly was the coup if it apparently wasn't the protesting people calling for new elections, nor the parliamentarians that removed Yanukovich from office?

The constitutionality of Yanukovych's removal from office has been questioned by constitutional experts. Parliament did not vote to impeach the President, which would have involved formally charging Yanukovych with a crime, a review of the charge by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine, and a three-fourths majority vote in parliament—at least 338 votes in favor. The Ukrainian Constitution at this time (like many other constitutions) did not provide any stipulation about how to remove a president who is neither dead nor incapacitated, but is nonetheless absent or not fulfilling his duties. The lack of such provisions was a loophole.

Obviously, edy, neither of us are lawyers (I think this was mentioned upthread) but these violent upheavals resonated far beyond the city of Kiev.

Shall we discuss your support for the state of Israel now?

So, as your quote says itself, the removal of Yanukovich wasn't even strictly illegal and unconstitutional. You also acknowledge that you aren't a lawyer (or Ukrainian constitutional lawyer). Yet, you, as a total neutral, have repeatedly called it all a coup, unconstitutional and illegal.

All of that, despite you yourself knowing better all along about it not having been strictly illegal and unconstitutional. You had quoted that piece before after all. Why does a neutral like you feel the need deliberately lie and misportray things like that?

Feel free to ask about Israel after we have put more light on your shady bad faith there.

You keep saying that I, a stranger to you, am acting in bad faith. As if someone who doesn't share your world-view must have an ulterior motive. Paid agent of Moscow or something. Growing up in the GDR must really have f***ed you up, edy.

ub-do you accept that putins invasion is criminal and indefensible, and taking thousands of children out of ukraine to be brainwshed in russia is also a crime?

and what is your opinion of putin? you accept hes a brutal dictator and mass-murderer?

I think its  presence in Eastern Ukraine and Crimea probably demarcates the legitimate claims of Russia. I would not support further incursions into Ukraine.

We should not make the conflict about Putin. This is an existential issue for both countries and the ramifications will outlast Putin and Zelensky.

I didn't say you are ar paid agent of moscow or anything alike at any point. I don't quite get your point about "stranger to you" as reason for not being able to assess that someone is acting in bad faith. I can read what you write, some of it quite clearly against your own better knowledge.

And if someone clearly knows better and deliberate writes fabrications against that own better knowledge, then that is simply bad faith.

rubbish-it certianly aint existential when it comes to russia. you think it wont survive? pffft

but it is for ukraine- putin has said for 20 years, and i know this because ive read all about it since he became dictator. 'ukraine is our land' and it is his 'historic mission' to unite them. and in his 5000-word testament he said, amomg other nonsense- 'ukraine is an artificial state that was taken away from us by the bolsheviks'

now thats a bit of a clue isnt it?

irrespective of that if he did have a grievance about russian nationals in eastern ukraine you think invading is the right way to solve the problem?

given his merciless extinguishing of dissent, of any kind, i think its fair to assume he does what he wants and its all about him

do you believe a demoratic russian president would act this way? you dont. and for once you would be correct

you didnt answer the question. putin is a brutal dictaor who kils dissent. hes murdered worldwide by all sorts of exotic means and has already smashed up georgia and chechnyia and syria and unleashed cyberwarfare all around, paricularly in the baltic states. and in doing so has frightened those renowned belligerents sweden and finland into joining nato, something they resisted for 70 years

again, a russian president with the well-being of the state at heart would not do this-therefore you are wrong- it is about putin and his messianic vision

Remove Putin, problem solved. Thanks for the masterclass, mitolo. What was your inspiration? The hit on Bin-Laden? Because that worked out so well in Afghanistan. You probably would prefer we do for Russia what we did for Iraq: parachute Putin to international court; then you could watch his trial and termination on live-stream. You are not proposing to execute this plan yourself, I trust.

Sherry Diplomacy and Philosophy innit!

Who did mitolo used to be on here? I probably won't remember his input unless it concerned Brexit.

brits in spain.....

moaning about it taking an hour to get through malaga immigration

Apologies if I misunderstood what you wrote earlier, mitolo. When you concluded you are wrong- it is about putin and his messianic vision I thought you meant the Ukraine war; my assumption being that you believe the key is in deposing Putin.

Of course, the people of Russia may vote him out of power. That would be legal. Biden wants to bring Putin to an International Court to face War Crimes. You obviously don't think that is viable. How would you remove Putin?