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Kelly
08 May 22 12:48
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Date Joined: 08 Mar 01
| Topic/replies: 8,699 | Blogger: Kelly's blog
This needs to be repeated . Northern Ireland only exists because of decisions made in Westminster 100 years or more ago.

The last time there was a vote on All Ireland unity was in 1918 when 84% of the population of a then United Ireland voted for Irish Unity . This vote was conveniently parked undemocratically because of the fear that it would lead to a break up of Empire , and the loss of British cash cows such as India etc.

Had Ireland been left United there would have been no civil war in Ireland , Ireland would undoubtedly have joined the world war effort against Hitler , there would have been no "NI Troubles" , and no bombs in England associated with IRA activity. Relations between Ireland and England would have been much friendlier and co operative .

Plus more recently the DUP bolstering of successive Tory administrations would not have happened which would  probably have led to a softer Brexit ( if any at all) . 

The Northern Ireland protocol currently at the centre of some ( mainly unionist) debate is designed to prevent dumping of shoddy British goods into the European Union via a non controllable 375 mile border which meanders across farms , roads , rivers , waterways etc. A British border commission was supposed to be sorting that border out sensibly  back in 1922 , but needless to say "perfidious Albion "reneged on that too .

The NI protocol is not the most pressing issue in Northern Ireland at present , despite the efforts of DUP and co to pretend otherwise . It is largely a smoke screen invented by the DUP to hide behind in the light of inevitable political down turn associated with their infantile support for Brexit which was always going to be a disaster for Northern Ireland as it currently exists . Brexit fallout is the real culprit , but no one in Westminster will admit that at present . DUP backed the wrong horse , and continued to follow it when it jumped over the cliff .

Dominic Raab this morning claimed that 58% of the people of Northern Ireland supported the union , as usual he cannot assimilate real facts , and it is a source of continuous worry that an office bearer like him can be so remote from reality ( not for the first time) . The basis for his figures assumes that all Alliance voters would support staying in UK in a border poll , that is definitely not the case . I also know DUP and Unionist voters ( mainly farming oriented) who are not averse to rejoining the European Union via the border poll option , largely because of the impact of Brexit on their income .

Brandon Lewis has no credibility here in Northern Ireland ( and maybe little in England for all I know ) , the last decent Northern Ireland Secretary ( look at the despicable record of political non entities we have endured recently) was Julian Smith who managed to get the NI Assembly back up running .  His reward was to be shunted , I have my own views on that , maybe he was one of the few Conservatives to have sensible views which ran contrary to Boris's make believe .

These may be uncomfortable facts for a lot of people living in England ( mainly) , the Scots and the Welsh tend to have views more sympathetic to Ireland , south and north.

We in Northern Ireland cannot solve current problems , there needs to be  sensible pragmatic options led by Westminster . Doubt there is currently the brain power there to expedite matters .

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Replies: 157
By:
peckerdunne
When: 08 May 22 13:17
Well done, thank you.
By:
lapsy pa
When: 08 May 22 13:20
You never lost it Kelly, great post.
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 13:38
That’s a long post and you have only to read the first few lines to find the first bit of misinformation ( that’s a polite way of saying it )
There was no vote on all Irish unity 100 years ago

The first vote on Irish unity and indeed first referendum anywhere in the U.K. was in 1973 - 98.9 % voted to remain part of the U.K.
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 13:40
No point reading any further - the Irish are not particularly good on understanding their own history
By:
Stickywickets
When: 08 May 22 13:45
Ireland wasn't partitioned in 1918
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 13:55
ps I’m sure the EU has tens of thousands of miles of border with farms , roads , rivers and fields
So that is no reason to suggest there must be a border in the within the U.K. to prevent dumping of shoddy goods from wherever

This is the kind of nonsense you come across when we try and unravel the though process of posters such as Kelly
By:
peckerdunne
When: 08 May 22 13:57
The full set of constituency results for all 103 Irish constituencies (two of which elected two MPs) is given below. Sinn Fein won 73 seats out of 105 (and they constituted themselves as the first Dáil); Unionists won 22, plus 3 from the satellite "Labour Unionist" grouping; the Irish Nationalist Party won 6 seats in Ireland, plus also a seat in Liverpool; and one independent Unionist was elected from Dublin University (ie Trinity College Dublin). The total vote (bearing in mind that Sinn Fein won 25 seats without a contest) was as follows:

1918
By:
peckerdunne
When: 08 May 22 14:01
The December 1918 election for the House of Commons in Westminster is regarded by some as the defining act of Irish self-determination, as the last occasion when the whole of Ireland voted on the same day.
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 14:01
pecker you do know that before the Scottish referendum the snp won something like 56 seats out 59
Something like that can’t recall exactly

They lost the referendum

Now there was no referendum on Irish unity 100 years ago
We don’t know what would have been the outcome
By:
peckerdunne
When: 08 May 22 14:04
Sorry lfc, where precisely did Kelly mention a referendum.

Right I'm off, wathing Tipp limericks hurling
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 14:05
If there was a referendum in Scotland today would they lose again ?
They might
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 14:06
By the way in Ulster in 1918 the unionist party was the most successful party
By:
Stickywickets
When: 08 May 22 14:08
in 25 constituencies, the Sinn Fein candidate was elected unopposed. Secondly, due to the first past the post system, Sinn Fein did much better than its share of the vote would allow under the proportional representation system that is used in Ireland today. In total Sinn Fein won 46 % of the popular vote in the December 1918 election but nearly 70% of the seats – 73 seats out of 105.

The 1918 election results is seen by some as given a mandate for an Independent Irish Republic and the War of Independence . The reality is a bit more complicated nothing is ever simple in the Irish context

With many seats uncontested, however, Sinn Féin’s actual vote was a more modest 46%, lower than the combined unionist and nationalist scores. Intimidation was sometimes a factor in candidates not standing, more so than electoral pacts.
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 14:08
Pecker Kelly mentioned a vote on Irish unity
There wasn’t any such vote in 1918
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 14:10
Maybe the snp would like to think wining 56 out of 59 seats in parliament is a vote for Scotland to leave the U.K. ?

Well it wasn’t , and isn’t
By:
lapsy pa
When: 08 May 22 14:13
Really pedantic stuff, 

Boris Johnson at a dup conference 2019;he lambasted the border backstop in Mays Withdrawal deal and made it clear that regulatory and customs checks in the Irish Sea would not happen on his watch,

Well Boris the Liar,that is exactly what he did,to dope the British for a general election.

Boris Johnson and the brexiteers are responsible for the break up of the British union.

What a jolly wheeze!
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 14:14
Right I’m off

Always remember it’s best take with a pinch of salt
anything you might read from our Irish friends
No matter how long the op , look at it with scepticism that’s best
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 14:17
Maybe check how many thousands of miles of EU border , and how many farms and fields and rivers and roads
If you wish it seems Kelly thinks it’s important , can’t be bothered myself
By:
lapsy pa
When: 08 May 22 14:23
Pedantics are all you are good for.

Johnson got your brexit done and by feck you are going to know about it.
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 14:32
Lapsy Ireland north or south never voted for independence
A devolved government was set up one in Belfast and one in Dublin
They didn’t then and wouldn’t have
And they still haven’t - let me know if you are ever happy to do so
That’s fine
By:
lapsy pa
When: 08 May 22 14:35
Ireland got 6 of their counties taken off them in 1922,they didn't give them away.
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 14:45
lapsy the unionists must not go into government with Sinn Fein - end of

Now take it from there
By:
lapsy pa
When: 08 May 22 14:51
I don't care about that, that will be seen as a failure of the unionists.

You have to agree with Kelly,Boris Johnson and brexit are the cause of the unionists not wanting to attend Stormont,many trying to throw dead cats everywhere and whataboutisms but it is Johnson and no one else.
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 14:55
No I don’t agree with Kelly
For the reason that he prefers to shift blame onto brexiteers and the tories
When he should be blaming himself
I know that will come as a shock
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 15:00
Going for a walk
By:
lapsy pa
When: 08 May 22 15:04
Have a little think about Boris telling the unionists that there will never be an Irish sea border on his watch.

It's a sore one but there you go.
By:
Kelly
When: 08 May 22 15:29
Both my parents were born in a United Ireland ie pre 1921 . Living and working in Belfast they found themselves exported to an English dominated "United Kingdom" , leaving their fellow citizens and families with an artificial border across 375 miles on a traditionally coherent island  ,  despite the fact that there was a substantial wish for Ireland to remain united as exhibited by the results of the 1918 votes , the only barometer then of peoples wishes .

The Westminster desire to retain a fragment of Ireland ( 6 counties , not Ulster which is 9 counties , there were too many "nationalists in Donegal , Monaghan , and Cavan for the "unionists" to be able to control in their essentially police state , established as a Protestant parliament for a Protestant people) resulted in the creation of "Northern Ireland". Those with contrary views to mine on the historical context of my opening post , have so far contributed no facts , just conjecture .

The rest of the world outside of the UK is well aware of the machinations which Britain has indulged in over the years , mainly in relation to holding onto Empire with that attendant economic benefit. The days of empire are gone , leaving the EU was an example of UK wanting to go it alone and the chickens will probably come home to roost with that decision when the ( independent) history books are written . Most of the business people here in NI have suffered because of Brexit , including the farmers who have a substantially unionist background ( they got most of the land when it was appropriated from the "natives" way back ). Some though have prospered because of increased cross border activity within Ireland , but that gets lost in the propaganda war .  One big difficulty is in obtaining supplies , particularly in regard to any product coming from Europe via England . I suspect that the Europeans are not particularly interested in helping out a country which has left the "club" , and I do not see that attitude reversing given the current set of politicians in Westminster .

Hard to see where I could be blaming myself for events which are essentially outside my control , viz associated with Westminster , our rulers .
By:
Kelly
When: 08 May 22 15:56
With reference to any prospective border poll in Northern Ireland , I think that is down the line rather than imminent . DUP type thinking would be hard to accommodate in a re united Ireland , Institutions North and South would have to reflect the realities of a substantial element of society hostile to anything deemed "Irish" ( except Bushmills , brewed in DUP heartland) . Disenchantment with UK policy in relation to NI ( assuming there is some coherent policy , not particularly evident recently) has begun to filter through to even the most committed unionists . To carry any worthwhile workable vote in relation to re-joining the EU will require a good few current unionists to jump ship and abandon their umbilical attachment to British institutions .

It may only be a matter of time , England in particular has NI on a pretty low priority level , it is across the water and irrelevant to a lot of the citizens on the UK mainland . On a personal level I find it hard to understand why English people would want to have anything to do with Northern Ireland , the last time NI was relevant to the UK was during the second world war when our strategic position was vital to the Allied war effort .  That was along time ago , and would have been significantly improved had the whole of Ireland ( geographically) been involved . But that is another story , ref the opening post .
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 16:26
Ok let’s take a little look at this
We see that Kelly’s parents and indeed Kelly himself lived in Ireland as part of Great Britain and Ireland
That’s without a border . Now of course after 1921 they were not ‘ exported ‘ anywhere
They remained exactly where they had always been ,  all their lives
And indeed so did Kelly .  And that was how was for the hundred years before partition and the hundred after partition
For 200 years at least the Kelly family lived as part of Great Britain and Ireland
With no border - none on any part of these islands and complete freedom to live anywhere on these Islands
And there the Kelly family have been happy to stay for 200 years

Now up to date . And any blame to be apportioned . Well if Kelly doesn’t want to take any blame for that
He won’t worry if it is made to work efficiently or scrapped
If you insist it must remain Kelly ? - blame yourself
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 16:27
* the Irish Sea border
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 16:36
Of course WW2 was a long time ago Kelly
But not as long ago as the partition of Ireland which you mentioned
And thank goodness N Ireland remained loyal to Britain in that time of greatest danger
Not only for Britain but the world
The south of Ireland sat on their hands and refused to help in that great endeavour
To their eternal shame
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 16:38
I’m  not about to forgive and forget that , no one should
By:
Escapee
When: 08 May 22 16:41
Hardly surprising that majority of people in N.I. want to leave UK after Boris put a border up between N.I. and UK.

Boris fanbois on here are confused coz conservative party says "N.I. Stay in UK" whilst Boris is kicking them out of UK Crazy
By:
lfc1971
When: 08 May 22 16:42
Now your family have lived for at least 200 years as part of Great Britain and N Ireland ( if it goes back that far )
Stop whining you have been very lucky and fortunate to have done so
By:
Whisperingdeath
When: 08 May 22 18:24
Lapsy / Kelly

Should Sinn Fein be trying to woo young Irish people with a promise to remain in the EU?
By:
lapsy pa
When: 08 May 22 18:28
My take is that is unwritten WD,they(SF) are pro EU.

It may be better at the present time to not 'trumpet' that which is working for them anyway.

Kelly may see it different.
By:
Whisperingdeath
When: 08 May 22 18:32
I just wondered if the young Irish people are sick of the ignorance and bigotry we see in these forums and maybe want to choose life?
By:
lapsy pa
When: 08 May 22 18:33
Yes WD,Alliance was their vote,it is growing and that is a great thing.
By:
Whisperingdeath
When: 08 May 22 18:34
I mean I don’t see why Sinn Fein need to be calling for an independence vote just yet. Let the people decide and demand it.
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