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PorcupineorPineapple
22 Mar 21 18:32
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Date Joined: 03 Dec 15
| Topic/replies: 12,809 | Blogger: PorcupineorPineapple's blog
I seem to remember there was a school of thought that these thousands of vulnerable people were not dying of Covid, they simply were carrying it when they passed.

Can one of these believers explain the massive reduction in fatalities in recent weeks of all these poor souls who just happened to die WITH Covid?
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Report Cider March 22, 2021 5:37 PM GMT
It's not a difficult concept to grasp.
Report Cider March 22, 2021 5:45 PM GMT
On the most recent data, excess deaths were 409 in England and Wales.

2,105 mentioned novel coronavirus (COVID-19).

Do you think excess deaths would be negative 1696 in one week if covid didn't exist. Or, one might say, more plausibly, people are recorded as having a death involving covid who would have died anyway.

As I write, not a difficult concept to grasp. If, possessing a modicum of logic.

Some people will have died directly from covid, but the reported figures are vastly inflated.
Report Charlie March 22, 2021 5:53 PM GMT
Cider

Why do you think:

The number of deaths registered in England and Wales in the week ending 5 March 2021 (Week 9) was 11,592; this was 1,022 fewer deaths than the previous week (Week 8).

Not a difficult concept to grasp if you have a modicum of logic.
Report Cider March 22, 2021 5:58 PM GMT
As I said Charlie, some people will have died due to covid. You may wish to read the OP again. You have (inadvertently) supported the argument that not all covid deaths reported are 'of' and not 'with'.
Report Charlie March 22, 2021 5:59 PM GMT
And you have, yet again, ignored my question.
Report Cider March 22, 2021 6:01 PM GMT
Excess deaths are also not static, they peak in January and fall week on week until the summer. Some of that decrease will be the natural reduction at this time of year (though not all of it).
Report Charlie March 22, 2021 6:03 PM GMT
I take it you don't give any credence to vaccines?
Report Cider March 22, 2021 6:04 PM GMT
I'll reiterate it for you, some of it will be due to falling deaths due to covid. That (obviously) does not mean some people are recorded as a covid death when they did not die of it. Which is the point of the OP.
Report Johnny The Guesser March 22, 2021 6:06 PM GMT
Does anyone have the excess death figure for calendar year 2020 ?
Report Charlie March 22, 2021 6:07 PM GMT
OP said:
I seem to remember there was a school of thought that these thousands of vulnerable people were not dying of Covid, they simply were carrying it when they passed

Since vaccines have been given in the UK the death rate continues to fall. Compare to other European countries where they have not met our vaccine rate and their death rate continues to rise. Do you think that's coincidence?
Report Cider March 22, 2021 6:08 PM GMT
I explained that the vaccines were lowering the death rates before anyone else on here, from reviewing the data. It (obviously, again) does not mean people weren't being recorded as a covid death who would have died anyway.
Report Charlie March 22, 2021 6:10 PM GMT

Mar 22, 2021 -- 1:06PM, Johnny The Guesser wrote:


Does anyone have the excess death figure for calendar year 2020 ?


Try this:
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/press/press-releases/highest-rates-excess-deaths-in-the-world-ons-deaths-data-2020

'Almost 80,000 more people in England and Wales died last year than the preceding 5-year average, and the death toll continues to rise at a shocking rate. In 2020, the UK had one of the highest rates of excess deaths in the world, with more excess deaths per million people than most other European countries and the US.

Or try Google.

Report Cider March 22, 2021 6:12 PM GMT
Excess deaths were caused by putting infected people into care homes, withdrawing normal health services and literally frightening people to death with propaganda. It suits the authorities to have all of these things conflated.
Report Cider March 22, 2021 6:13 PM GMT
We will never know the true number of people who died as a direct result of getting the virus in the community.
Report Charlie March 22, 2021 6:14 PM GMT

Mar 22, 2021 -- 1:08PM, Cider wrote:


I explained that the vaccines were lowering the death rates before anyone else on here, from reviewing the data. It (obviously, again) does not mean people weren't being recorded as a covid death who would have died anyway.


I don't know about you being the first to state a perfectly obvious trend but that may be true and is nothing to brag about. 

As for:
It (obviously, again) does not mean people weren't being recorded as a covid death who would have died anyway.

It probably does in more cases than not. 80,000 excess deaths is significant.

Report saddo March 22, 2021 6:15 PM GMT
'The data on deaths can be confusing.

On one hand, excess deaths are at their highest since World War Two, while on the other, death rates, once age and size of population are taken into account, are at their worst level for a little over a decade 'only'.

How should that be interpreted?

Excess deaths are basically a measure of how many more people are dying than would be expected based on the previous few years.

Clearly, 2020 saw a huge and unexpected rise in deaths because of the pandemic, just as World War Two led to a sudden jump.

But in determining how much those jumps affected the chances of dying, a measure known as age-standardised mortality, which takes into account the age and size of the population, is important.

It shows the pandemic has undone the progress made in the last decade or so. That is significant - especially given this has happened despite lockdowns and social-distancing measures to stop the spread of the virus.

But it also helps put the death toll over the past 12 months in a wider context.'
Report Charlie March 22, 2021 6:18 PM GMT
saddo
Clearly, 2020 saw a huge and unexpected rise in deaths because of the pandemic, just as World War Two led to a sudden jump.

That really says it all. Covid caused thousands of deaths.
Report Cider March 22, 2021 6:18 PM GMT
I wasn't bragging, merely explaining that I was already over vaccine efficacy.

There are multiple (different) reasons for that excess death number. As I state, we will never know how many were due to otherwise healthy people catching covid in the community.
Report Charlie March 22, 2021 6:21 PM GMT
I agree we will never know but any attempt to explain excess deaths other than covid is nothing more than a guess and a poor one at that.
Report Cider March 22, 2021 6:22 PM GMT
The ONS are already lining up to 'fiddle' the numbers as they are basing excess deaths this year on the 2015-2019 average. which wouldn't have made much difference so far this year, but will do soon.
Report Charlie March 22, 2021 6:24 PM GMT
I don't believe the ONS fiddle any number, they report them. If you're insulating that they won't include the 2020 figures in the last five year average then you are guessing yet again.
Report Charlie March 22, 2021 6:25 PM GMT
insinuating not insulating!
Report nineteen points March 22, 2021 6:27 PM GMT
calm down mexico your getting excited
Report Charlie March 22, 2021 6:28 PM GMT
19 you know full well I'm fatslogger.
Report saddo March 22, 2021 6:28 PM GMT
Charlie 22 Mar 21 19:18 
saddo
Clearly, 2020 saw a huge and unexpected rise in deaths because of the pandemic, just as World War Two led to a sudden jump.

That really says it all. Covid caused thousands of deaths.

..............................

It did, average age of covid death is the same as the average age of death. Most of em didn't have long anyway.
Report Charlie March 22, 2021 6:30 PM GMT
saddo
It did, average age of covid death is the same as the average age of death. Most of em didn't have long anyway.

No idea what you mean by this. Are you saying the average age of dying from covid is the same as the average age of dying in WW2?
Report Cider March 22, 2021 6:32 PM GMT
The ONS have studied some of this, but there is no way to be definitive about it, and how many could have avoided death by being cared for in hospital.

In England, the number of deaths in private homes registered between 28 December 2019 and 11 September 2020 was 108,842; this was 25,472 deaths more than the five-year average for the same period.
Report Cider March 22, 2021 6:33 PM GMT
25K by 11th Sept is a lot. Maybe half of all excess deaths by now.
Report TimmyRiggins March 22, 2021 6:36 PM GMT
Someone give Sarah Caul a shout, and let her know Cider from Betfair forum has some tips for her on how to do her job properly Laugh
Report Cider March 22, 2021 6:41 PM GMT
Anyone can do retrospective stats Timmy. Interpretation is the skill. And using them as a basis for forecasting, which is not really the ONS remit.
Report saddo March 22, 2021 6:46 PM GMT
Charlie, read it again.
Report SontaranStratagem March 22, 2021 6:48 PM GMT
What is striking is even though the deaths are not even above 20, cases have now dropped down to low levels

You still ain't going on holiday, you still ain't going back INTO pubs (only beer gardens), Festivals WONT be going ahead, fans WONT be going back into stadiums until and UNLESS "vaccinated" 5 times a year

Plain
Report SontaranStratagem March 22, 2021 6:49 PM GMT
All for a virus that doesn't anyone unless its on the death bed
Report TimmyRiggins March 22, 2021 6:49 PM GMT

Mar 22, 2021 -- 1:41PM, Cider wrote:


Anyone can do retrospective stats Timmy. Interpretation is the skill. And using them as a basis for forecasting, which is not really the ONS remit.


Shame she didn't do better at school, so she could ply her trade on the Betfair Politics forum instead.

Report Johnny The Guesser March 22, 2021 6:49 PM GMT
Excess deaths would be the starting point for me - March 2020 to March 2021 ideally would be the period to look at.

Trying to properly categorise these deaths is the tricky part. Some will have been caused by social isolation , postponed NHS treatments etc , and Government mismanagement of care homes.

I'm not saying what has been happening isn't serious, it is, but 126,000 have not died OF Covid. The true figure will be well below this. It suits the Government's narrative to ' push the fear ' and inflate the numbers.
Report SontaranStratagem March 22, 2021 6:53 PM GMT

Mar 22, 2021 -- 1:49PM, Johnny The Guesser wrote:


Excess deaths would be the starting point for me - March 2020 to March 2021 ideally would be the period to look at. Trying to properly categorise these deaths is the tricky part. Some will have been caused by social isolation , postponed NHS treatments etc , and Government mismanagement of care homes. I'm not saying what has been happening isn't serious, it is, but 126,000 have not died OF Covid. The true figure will be well below this. It suits the Government's narrative to ' push the fear ' and inflate the numbers.


And that's pretty much why they get their utopia

Because no one has a fooking clue anymore, its all under a sludge pond, its been made that way

Report Johnny The Guesser March 22, 2021 6:53 PM GMT
That's politics.
Report SontaranStratagem March 22, 2021 6:55 PM GMT
Categorising the deaths should have been looked into and demanded back in April 2020 not now

Its not possible its all been through a shredder and the media have literally created multiple narratives entwined in an enigma machine, no one would know what to believe now anyway even if they wanted to learn
Report Cider March 22, 2021 6:57 PM GMT
Pretty bizarre comment Timmy. Speak for yourself, I guess, but posting on this forum is not a barometer of academic or professional achievement. Working at the ONS would be beyond tedious for me, and I prefer an easy life. Many people spend more time in the twatter st1thole and other sm than I spend posting on here.
Report SontaranStratagem March 22, 2021 6:58 PM GMT
It came from a lab in wuhan? then it was a lab in America but transferred to Wuhan, then it was dropped in the desert... you get the gist
Report SontaranStratagem March 22, 2021 6:59 PM GMT
People are getting angry and looking for someone to blame, when all they need to look at is what's around them, no one is dropping dead in the street...
Report SontaranStratagem March 22, 2021 7:01 PM GMT
But people hang on every word from the media

Wait for a man with a used toilet bog brush on his head to tell them when they can go on holiday... its fooking mind boggling
Report Cider March 22, 2021 7:02 PM GMT
Self fulfilling, scare the sh1t out of people then ask them if they would like measures taken to make them feel safe. It help when you bung free money to millions of them, and several more million are better off with their feet up at home.
Report Cider March 22, 2021 7:04 PM GMT
I put myself in that category, saving a fortune, longer lay ins, doing less work, getting bonuses. If you're warm, you don't care too much that other people are cold.
Report GEESUSS March 22, 2021 7:11 PM GMT

Mar 22, 2021 -- 1:49PM, Johnny The Guesser wrote:


Excess deaths would be the starting point for me - March 2020 to March 2021 ideally would be the period to look at. Trying to properly categorise these deaths is the tricky part. Some will have been caused by social isolation , postponed NHS treatments etc , and Government mismanagement of care homes. I'm not saying what has been happening isn't serious, it is, but 126,000 have not died OF Covid. The true figure will be well below this. It suits the Government's narrative to ' push the fear ' and inflate the numbers.


The fact the NHS was put on ice when the 'the virus hit' is significant to the death rate, it's not just the fact that 'elective' surgery was put on hold, people were put off contacting their GP's unless it was an emergency (as that was rammed down peoples throat's), potential symptoms of early signs of cancer and such not being investigated because people not wanting to 'bother' their GP. It would be interesting to see the rates of Cancer deaths, since the pandemic started, being compared to year on year averages.

Report tashkent terror March 22, 2021 7:14 PM GMT
ONS 2021 data upto 16/03/21....

Between Weeks 1 and 9 : Of the 52.2K deaths involving COVID-19 in England and Wales, 46.3K had this recorded as the underlying cause of death (89%)
Between Weeks 1 and 9 : Of the 39.1K deaths that involved Influenza and Pneumonia, 2.9K had this recorded as the underlying cause of death (7%).
Report nineteen points March 22, 2021 7:51 PM GMT
it seems to escaped folk that if these covid laws go through again on thursday,we will still have to apply in writing to use our passport to leave the country.

it is about a virus isnt it?
Report SontaranStratagem March 22, 2021 8:35 PM GMT
Its already passed nineteen points

Thursday is just a puppet show
Report mafeking March 22, 2021 8:41 PM GMT
yep wouldn't put it past labour to nod it through if they decided to cancel all elections permanently so keen have they been to back the govt on literally anything. utterly bizarre the only opposition a handful of backbenchers on their own side
Report SontaranStratagem March 22, 2021 8:46 PM GMT
Labour can't do s*it anything

They will get it through comfortably regardless
Report nineteen points March 22, 2021 8:50 PM GMT
imo labour have been more culpable in this dire sh1tshow than the tories.
Report SontaranStratagem March 22, 2021 9:18 PM GMT
Van Tams "Regardless of whether someone has had their vaccination or not, it is vital everyone follows the national restrictions and public health advice, as protection takes up to three weeks to kick in and we don't yet the know of vaccines on transmission"

So its still experimental then?
Report PorcupineorPineapple March 22, 2021 11:06 PM GMT

Mar 22, 2021 -- 3:50PM, nineteen points wrote:


imo labour have been more culpable in this dire sh1tshow than the tories.


How so?

Report PorcupineorPineapple March 22, 2021 11:09 PM GMT

Mar 22, 2021 -- 4:18PM, SontaranStratagem wrote:


Van Tams "Regardless of whether someone has had their vaccination or not, it is vital everyone follows the national restrictions and public health advice, as protection takes up to three weeks to kick in and we don't yet the know of vaccines on transmission"So its still experimental then?


No. Are you deliberately acting dim? The vaccine was delivered with a promised efficacy of stopping serious illness/death. If it does affect transmission then great, but it does what it was designed to do. Can you bed wetters stop getting so excited maybe.

Report TheBetterBettor March 22, 2021 11:19 PM GMT
the only person who was piping up against the bill on thursday was tory mp steve baker .... no david davis not even any labour mp's

Seem to be that the tories are wheeling out their own 'controlled' opposition on the sunday politic shows
Report SontaranStratagem March 22, 2021 11:22 PM GMT

Mar 22, 2021 -- 6:09PM, PorcupineorPineapple wrote:


Mar 22, 2021 -- 10:18PM, SontaranStratagem wrote:Van Tams "Regardless of whether someone has had their vaccination or not, it is vital everyone follows the national restrictions and public health advice, as protection takes up to three weeks to kick in and we don't yet the know of vaccines on transmission"So its still experimental then?No. Are you deliberately acting dim? The vaccine was delivered with a promised efficacy of stopping serious illness/death. If it does affect transmission then great, but it does what it was designed to do. Can you bed wetters stop getting so excited maybe.


Not if they don't know what transmission does after it

Report SontaranStratagem March 22, 2021 11:25 PM GMT
I still think some are just acting dumb because they don't want to admit they were wrong

Grow up, put aside your pride and then we can maybe do something about this as a society Scared
Report Cider March 23, 2021 11:43 AM GMT
In Week 10, the number of deaths registered in England and Wales was 4.4% below the five-year average (511 fewer deaths)

Of the deaths registered in Week 10 in England and Wales, 1,501 mentioned novel coronavirus (COVID-19)
Report TheBetterBettor March 23, 2021 12:01 PM GMT
Would be interesting to find out on how many people died of the brazilian variant, south african variant and kent variant
Report Cider March 23, 2021 12:07 PM GMT
It's next to none. We're all going to die, usually it will be attributed to something. If you're lucky enough, you'll get to an age we're you're really weak and won't be able to recover from an illness that a younger person may bounce back from. You've died of old age, essentially.
Report truehoncho March 23, 2021 12:18 PM GMT
Exactly Cider. No one dies of old age you die of anything that's going around when your body has no immunity to anything. This year it's covid but it would have been flu or something else. You are right SS, they are just playing dumb but I think they may just be dumb. No more died of covid this year than of flu in 2017/18 or 2014/15. Can you imaging how big the number would have been for flu in 2017/18 if they had counted flu deaths as those that had it 8 weeks previous? The thing is you could maybe excuse the stupidness initially but now all you have to do is compare the covid to flu and only a dummy can't see it (or someone that doesn't want to see it). God knows what the real damage is going to be by all these restrictions that have been imposed. Total lunacy.
Report wolf3011 March 23, 2021 12:20 PM GMT
Survival of the fittest is evident in most species, it's nature. What we are seeing here is a society where the strong are having their lives ruined to protect a comparatively tiny number of weak people where responsibility for your own health seems to have gone out of the window. It won't matter if every vulnerable person is vaccinated or the virus mutates where it is not serious enough to kill a one lunged 95 year old as there will always be the same subset of people wanting lockdowns, masks and restrictions as it suits their lifestyle and mindset. It's normally the same group of people that demand everyone kneels for marxist groups, advocates marches and protests for these same groups but do a 180 when the gathering may be a family where they are potentially " killing people with covid". A society full of these hypocritical cowards that cant accept their own mortality or any personal responsibility for anything revelling in their own victimhood
Report truehoncho March 23, 2021 12:25 PM GMT
Thats a really good post wolf, especially the last sentance.
Report truehoncho March 23, 2021 12:25 PM GMT
'sentence'
Report dpm March 23, 2021 6:30 PM GMT
Well said Wolf3011, problem is the wokes and snowflakes have taken over. We are not allowed to get old/ill and die anymore, the fact it's been happening for 1000's of years and will carry on forever has been lost on them.
Report nineteen points March 23, 2021 6:33 PM GMT
surely with everyone jabbed next year deaths will be back to normal?
Report layingisthewayforward March 23, 2021 6:38 PM GMT
I seem to remember there was a school of thought that these thousands of vulnerable people were not dying of Covid, they simply were carrying it when they passed.

Can one of these believers explain the massive reduction in fatalities in recent weeks of all these poor souls who just happened to die WITH Covid.

Apologies if I'm being thick here but isn't this obvious? As the number of people infected with the virus drops, the number of people dying 'WITH' covid drops as well..Common sense surely?
Report nineteen points March 23, 2021 6:50 PM GMT
are you saying no one is dying now? like flu and pneumonia have disappeared?
Report clouded leopard March 23, 2021 7:01 PM GMT
Fluvid
Report wolf3011 March 23, 2021 7:08 PM GMT

Mar 23, 2021 -- 1:38PM, layingisthewayforward wrote:


I seem to remember there was a school of thought that these thousands of vulnerable people were not dying of Covid, they simply were carrying it when they passed.Can one of these believers explain the massive reduction in fatalities in recent weeks of all these poor souls who just happened to die WITH Covid. Apologies if I'm being thick here but isn't this obvious? As the number of people infected with the virus drops, the number of people dying 'WITH' covid drops as well..Common sense surely?


because like all viruses, once winter ends , so death numbers reduced. In 14/15 we had over 50,000 excess deaths in winter alone and now we are expected to believe there have been no flu deaths and all deaths this winter are covid.. its utterly ridiculous

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/highestnumberofexcesswinterdeathssince19992000/2015-11-25
.

Report clouded leopard March 23, 2021 7:11 PM GMT
cases also off a cliff and so timely with the CT adjustment advice from the WHO

whodathunkit ?
Report edy March 23, 2021 7:15 PM GMT
wolf3011 • March 23, 2021 12:20 PM GMT
Survival of the fittest is evident in most species, it's nature. What we are seeing here is a society where the strong are having their lives ruined to protect a comparatively tiny number of weak people where responsibility for your own health seems to have gone out of the window. It won't matter if every vulnerable person is vaccinated or the virus mutates where it is not serious enough to kill a one lunged 95 year old as there will always be the same subset of people wanting lockdowns, masks and restrictions as it suits their lifestyle and mindset. It's normally the same group of people that demand everyone kneels for marxist groups, advocates marches and protests for these same groups but do a 180 when the gathering may be a family where they are potentially " killing people with covid". A society full of these hypocritical cowards that cant accept their own mortality or any personal responsibility for anything revelling in their own victimhood


Thus he spoke after having made sure to display himself a strong guy victim whose life has been ruined by woke snowflake weaklings.
Report edy March 23, 2021 7:21 PM GMT

Mar 23, 2021 -- 1:30PM, dpm wrote:


Well said Wolf3011, problem is the wokes and snowflakes have taken over. We are not allowed to get old/ill and die anymore, the fact it's been happening for 1000's of years and will carry on forever has been lost on them.


Pretty weak and pathetic stuff from the strong people if some woke snowflakes were able to take over that easily and ruin your lives, innit?

Report wolf3011 March 23, 2021 7:26 PM GMT
Here's Edy to destroy another thread with psychotic ramblings - obeying the law is weak and pathetic? Perhaps but not as pathetic as spamming threads and drawing pictures like this Edy

https://community.betfair.com/edy/go/gallery/item/161037265?pref_tab=photos&type=photo
.
Report edy March 23, 2021 7:29 PM GMT
Again showing off you stalk my gallery in your desperation to have something on me because you don't quite have it in you to find a proper counter argument?
Report edy March 23, 2021 7:29 PM GMT
Your stalking tendences regarding other people's galleries, post counts and postings regarding men's underwear are quite worrisome, my dear.
Report wolf3011 March 23, 2021 7:30 PM GMT
Your argument is " Obeying the law is pathetic" so what can anyone do other than pat you on the head and laugh at you and your pictures as usual.
Report edy March 23, 2021 7:31 PM GMT
My primary argument was the irony of a victim bemoaning others revelling in their own victimhood.
Report edy March 23, 2021 7:32 PM GMT
Not that I really expected you to be able to understand that. We've established that you are quite lacking up there.
Report wolf3011 March 23, 2021 7:34 PM GMT
You have no argument on anything, you're like a bad smell on every thread posting to yourself ruining the threads and the forum continually with utter nonsense. Your thread with Burt was hilarious watching the meltdown.. you're the embodiment for care in the community being needed- in this case the betfair community
Report edy March 23, 2021 7:37 PM GMT
As someone who always stays cool as a cucumber, much unlike you btw., I very much doubt there was a meltdown going on apart from in your imagination.
Report wolf3011 March 23, 2021 7:39 PM GMT
You dont stay cool as a cucumber, you post away for hours determined to have last say on every thread which goes on forever not discussing anything relevant to the original topic. Begone imbecile
Report edy March 23, 2021 7:42 PM GMT
Well, those are two different. Being able to post away for hours without going into crazy angry psycho b[b}[/b}itch that talks about post counts or shows off that I like to stalk people's galleries is actually a sign of mental composure.
Report scandanavian_haven March 23, 2021 8:11 PM GMT
How many excess deaths were due to the Do Not Resuscitate forms or practice without consent? Age Concern UK were so concerned they published a full statement on it
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