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frog1000
29 Dec 20 11:54
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Date Joined: 25 Jan 01
| Topic/replies: 16,086 | Blogger: frog1000's blog
Empty Nightingale hospitals are quietly dismantled 'because there aren't enough staff to run them' - despite NHS chief warning health service is back 'in eye of the storm' and hospitalisations pass peak of first Covid wave

Nightingale hospitals are being quietly taken apart as medics warn there are too few doctors and nurses to keep the make-shift facilities open.

Health bosses have already started stripping London's of its 4,000 beds, ventilators and even signs directing ambulances to wards, while those in Birmingham and Sunderland are yet to re-open.

An eye-watering £220million of taxpayers' money was splashed on seven Nightingales amid panic hospitals could be overwhelmed by an influx of Covid-19 patients during the first wave.

But many stood empty for months after ministers hailed them as a 'solution' to the Covid-19 crisis when they were opened to much fan-fare during the first months of the pandemic to buffer overwhelmed hospitals.

Intensive care doctors today accused ministers of ignoring warnings staffing was already 'wafer thin' in intensive care before splurging on the extra capacity, with little regard as to how they would be run.

And as beds were wheeled away from the flagship Nightingale in London - opened by Prince Charles - figures revealed that Covid-19 hospitalisations in England have surged past the peak of the first wave amid warnings from health chiefs they are back in the 'eye' of the Covid storm.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9095087/Londons-Nightingale-hospital-quietly-broken-arent-medics.html
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Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 5:25 PM GMT
Cancer affects much younger people than covid which primarily targets people at the end of their lives, you can twist and squirm putting " affect" up implying we should all be terrified of a few tales of people being out of breath running up stairs long term with nothing to substantiate it but it won't change the facts that covid is so mild for the vast majority most don't even know they have it. How many people have cancer and don't know they have it with it just disappearing fatslogger as covid does?
Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 5:30 PM GMT
I’m struggling to work out what your current straw man even is with this post.

On average the age of diagnosis of Covid is much lower than the age of diagnosis of cancer. You still don’t seem to have a good handle on the word “affects”.

While you’re not answering questions about the word “affects” and whether we should investigate or treat cancer in elderly people, how about I ask you another question you won’t answer? What do you mean by “a vast majority” in your post above?

Oh and in passing, quite a few people have cancer without realising it, probably a higher proportion than have Covid without knowing, depending on how you define cancer and how hard you look for it. Why do you think we have screening programmes?
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 5:33 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 11:25AM, Fatslogger wrote:


It isn’t. Who said it was? I thought we were talking about cancer generally, not specific types of cancer that might allow you to get out of answering questions about your views on treating elderly people.


You're just a sad troll that reverts back to virtue signalling about not being empathetic to old people implying anyone that doesnt shake like a leaf with covid is a relative to Dr shipman. You're irrational and have no perspective on anything - terrifying to think you are a doctor so nonchalant over thousands of people not getting cancer treatment over a disease that has an age of death above life expectancy with people on their last legs in most cases. You're covid obsessed to the point where an atomic bomb could detonate killing millions and you would still be testing Mrs Brown for covid who was 92 having being given a terminal cancer diagnosis 3 years earlier. Utterly brainwashed with spin/ propaganda. I'm not sure why you keep typing affects out other than confirming you are struggling and out of your depth when stating " cancer affects the elderly like covid" but presented with 25% of bone cancers affecting under 20s

Report nineteen points December 31, 2020 5:35 PM GMT
fats,the fact that your diverting wolfs question by arguing the toss of the meaning of a word shows you are all at sea on this particular discussion.then to add your last paragraph really is clutching at straws and to fair somewhat pathetic,without being insulting.

i still await your answer to my question also
Report DenzilPenberthy December 31, 2020 5:36 PM GMT
Fats throw the towel in ffs Blush
Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 5:40 PM GMT
Wolf, you aren’t letting up with the straw men, are you? I mean, obviously if you can’t answer questions, it may be a happier place for you to invent a bunch of things I think or say, in almost all cases things that I’ve already repudiated but it’s not very convincing, I’m afraid.

Do you want to have another go at whether we should investigate and treat for cancer in elderly people? You seem to have such strong views about whether we should put effort in to reduce Covid deaths in the elderly and such strong views about cancer so you must have an opinion.

Sorry 19, I didn’t notice a question from you, just a bunch of statements. By all means reframe it.

Denzil, hello, thanks for your contribution.
Report 1st time poster December 31, 2020 5:40 PM GMT
9 months still going round in circles
by getting on with it
do you mean people delivering public transport,shop worker,s, leisure industry,taxi,s etc should put their lives at risk so as you can so called GET ON WITH IT
Report nineteen points December 31, 2020 5:45 PM GMT
fats 17.09
Report 1st time poster December 31, 2020 5:45 PM GMT
nothings changed in 9 months the equation remains the same and is proved on a daily basis but some just dont want to admit it

MORE CASES = MORE HOSPITALISATIONS = HOSPITALS OVER RUN - MORE DEATH S= MORE PEOPLE NOT GETTING TREATED FOR OTHER AILMENTS

and as yet despite 9 months of comp0laining even julia hartly brewer and carl henneghan cant square that circle
other than some vague nonsense of locking away 20 million people and their family,dependents, etc
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 5:48 PM GMT
I'll put it as simply as I can so even someone as blinkered as you can grasp it fatslogger

1) Cancer kills far more people of all ages and primarily the younger than covid
2) The average age of death from cancer is much lower than covid
3) Cancer can kill tens of thousands of children and people under 40 in the UK, covid can't
4) Are you saying as a Dr saving the life of a 90 year old with multiple health issues should have the same priority as a 20 year old with cancer? If so you should be struck off immediately

Fatslogger every post from you is just a deflection from accepting we all have finite lives and getting perspective on the comparative age of death from both conditions. Only someone with an agenda or a troll of epic proportions would translate that to " not caring about the elderly " when taking a balanced look at the two diseases and a proportional response to them both. I haven't said anywhere " over 75s shouldn't be treated for cancer", the fact you are making that statement and have the audacity to claim a " strawman " debate from me sums up your ridiculous posting style
Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 5:57 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 11:45AM, nineteen points wrote:


fats 17.09


There isn’t one!

Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 5:58 PM GMT
Incidentally fatslogger your statement "You seem to have such strong views about whether we should put effort in to reduce Covid deaths in the elderly and such strong views about cancer so you must have an opinion." would be answered by all elderly lives should be saved when possibly but not at the expense of the lives of younger people which is what is happening directly and indirectly.
Report frog1000 December 31, 2020 6:18 PM GMT
9 months.

Hundreds and Hundred of billions of pounds thrown at the NHS.

Many times their normal annual

And still they cannot cope.

I was all for clapping for them early on but the people running the NHS have failed miserably to deal with the uplift this winter - or so they are claiming.

How many more resources do they want?
Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 6:26 PM GMT
Wolf -

I'll put it as simply as I can so even someone as blinkered as you can grasp it fatslogger

1) Cancer kills far more people of all ages and primarily the younger than covid
2) The average age of death from cancer is much lower than covid
3) Cancer can kill tens of thousands of children and people under 40 in the UK, covid can't
4) Are you saying as a Dr saving the life of a 90 year old with multiple health issues should have the same priority as a 20 year old with cancer? If so you should be struck off immediately

Fatslogger every post from you is just a deflection from accepting we all have finite lives and getting perspective on the comparative age of death from both conditions. Only someone with an agenda or a troll of epic proportions would translate that to " not caring about the elderly " when taking a balanced look at the two diseases and a proportional response to them both. I haven't said anywhere " over 75s shouldn't be treated for cancer", the fact you are making that statement and have the audacity to claim a " strawman " debate from me sums up your ridiculous posting style


So you’ll have data backing up 1-3, will you? Perhaps you could share them.

I love that you post the most rampaging straw man yet before complaining that I’ve straw manned you by asking you a few questions. I mean, if you chose to answer them, your position would be clear, wouldn’t it? In that spirit, I consider a number of things important in health resource allocation, including obviously patient wishes (your hypothetical 90 year old probably wouldn’t want aggressive treatment and would certainly be very unlikely to benefit from say ventilation) and prognosis. Young people with cancer get very well resourced treatment and rightly so. They are, however, a very rare group. The large majority of health resources go on older people, because they’re largely the ones who get unwell, with Covid along with most other diseases and certainly including cancer.

I’m not the one suggesting that we stop worrying about people dying of one disease so we can concentrate on the other. Of course, while this position of yours is odd in lots of ways, the really crazy part of it is that the NHS is again overwhelmed by Covid and Covid control measures, difficult though they are, offer the only way of even hoping to continue to provide usual care.


Incidentally fatslogger your statement "You seem to have such strong views about whether we should put effort in to reduce Covid deaths in the elderly and such strong views about cancer so you must have an opinion." would be answered by all elderly lives should be saved when possibly but not at the expense of the lives of younger people which is what is happening directly and indirectly.

So you’re saying is that we should be content to let the pandemic continue unabated and overwhelm hospitals further, resulting in much more disruption to cancer care (along with all other non Covid diseases)? Or we should try hard to control it? Or some other course of action?
Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 6:27 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 12:18PM, frog1000 wrote:


9 months.Hundreds and Hundred of billions of pounds thrown at the NHS.Many times their normal annualAnd still they cannot cope.I was all for clapping for them early on but the people running the NHS have failed miserably to deal with the uplift this winter - or so they are claiming.How many more resources do they want?


Naught NHS chiefs not being able to magic up trained staff in 9 months.

Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 6:27 PM GMT
Naughty, even.
Report nineteen points December 31, 2020 6:36 PM GMT
fats,
there is a 17.09 post

why,as you seem an educated,sensible,reasonable man,do you have to disagree,argue,dispute,every single point someone has on this covid situation unless they are backing the actions,stats and statements of this govt.surely,just once or twice you dont agree with something.or are you just here to defend them whatever,on the payroll?
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 6:43 PM GMT
Fatslogger your posts are like a demented parrot in a never ending repetitive cycle of straw man accusations rabbiting on  accusing me of " strawman" points when you do it in every paragraph yourself deliberately obsessing over words such as "affecting" with a written stream of diarrhoea like a backfiring 3rd world toilet avoiding the salient points and focusing on bizarre things. The fact you are asking me for data to show cancer has an average age of death lower than 82 when I have already provided 2 egs and you know full well all cancers are more dangerous to younger people than covid again illustrates you are either a troll or intrinsically stupid.

Your post " I’m not the one suggesting that we stop worrying about people dying of one disease so we can concentrate on the other" is more deflection gibberish, perhaps you can suggest where in your wildest twisted logic my comment of " taking a balanced look at both diseases" which incorporates mortality age and life expectancy = " stop worrying about it". If that isn't the metaphorical strawman what is... are you drunk or just ignorant extrapolating that summary from what I've said? You are probably the biggest strawman poster on this forum and would give worzel gummidge a run for his money with the mindless guff you contort from balanced statements into what your mind  equates to " ignoring elderly people and not advocating cancer treatment in the over 75s". What a strange chap
Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 6:43 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 12:36PM, nineteen points wrote:


fats,there is a 17.09 postwhy,as you seem an educated,sensible,reasonable man,do you have to disagree,argue,dispute,every single point someone has on this covid situation unless they are backing the actions,stats and statements of this govt.surely,just once or twice you dont agree with something.or are you just here to defend them whatever,on the payroll?


I can’t see it. Oh it’s a time stamp issue isn’t it? It’s 4.09pm for me. Sorry, didn’t clock it all first time around.

Testing numbers often are a bit bent out of shape by when they’re reported but that seems a plausible enough number to me.

The single dose initially and catch up later thing is interesting. Don’t have ages to answer now but the large majority of the protection comes from dose 1 so it’s appealing to get twice as many people vaccinated in the next 8 weeks or so than otherwise possible and catch up later, bearing in mind how critical a time period it is with the case numbers so high. The worry would be whether immunity will wane quickly if not topped up but if anything a later booster dose seems more likely to offer sustained immunity. We need trials to know for sure but won’t get them in time so have to guess, a bit.

Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 6:47 PM GMT
Oh and I think this government has been a bit of a disaster in managing the pandemic in all sorts of ways. I’m in favour of measures to reduce spread, as they are but I don’t think they’ve enacted anything well, at all and have got some things horribly wrong, while also corruptly enriching their friends and donors.
Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 6:48 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 12:43PM, wolf3011 wrote:


Fatslogger your posts are like a demented parrot in a never ending repetitive cycle of straw man accusations rabbiting on

Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 6:49 PM GMT
So you can’t answer my questions then? Thought not.
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 6:50 PM GMT
You're embarrassing yourself fatslogger
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 6:52 PM GMT
A poster called fatslogger on a betting forum pretending to be a doctor asking for evidence that cancer kills more than covid and the average age of death for the former is much lower than the latter.. what can anyone say to that other than laugh. Do you want an eg of the sun rising in the east as well Fatslogger as proof?
Report nineteen points December 31, 2020 6:53 PM GMT
so you honestly believe 339,024 people left their house on christmas day to go for a covid test? did santa and his little helpers do them? come on fats we are not the fools you take us for

and as for the vaccine,the makers themselves have stated their testing was based on 2nd dose being within 21 days and cant vouch for any results after that.so who made the decision to float those recommendations?
Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 7:05 PM GMT
I can find the figures wolf, it’s just that they don’t say what you claim, so I thought I’d ask which ones you were using to say that:

Cancer kills far more people of all ages and primarily the younger than covid

There aren’t actually ONS cancer figures for this year yet but probably cancer will end up having killed a little under twice as many people from March to December as Covid, which seems a fair enough comparison. Far more? Depends on what you mean by that but I wouldn’t be convinced. I don’t know what primarily the younger means but assuming you’re saying that people die of cancer much younger, then you’re not right, unless you think about 5 years difference in median age is much younger. Again, I was wondering what data you were using to support your very confident claims.

I also wondered about:

Cancer can kill tens of thousands of children and people under 40 in the UK, covid can't

What does that mean? Given that cancer doesn’t kill tens of thousands of under 40s per year or anything close to that I was puzzled. No doubt you’ll elucidate in your usual clear style.
Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 7:07 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 12:53PM, nineteen points wrote:


so you honestly believe 339,024 people left their house on christmas day to go for a covid test? did santa and his little helpers do them? come on fats we are not the fools you take us forand as for the vaccine,the makers themselves have stated their testing was based on 2nd dose being within 21 days and cant vouch for any results after that.so who made the decision to float those recommendations?


Have you heard of home testing?

Yes, I agree about the vaccine trial evidence. That’s why I said we need new trials looking at different time periods between doses and that it was a hard call but then the benefit of vaccinating close to twice as many people in a 3 month window is quite a large one, isn’t it?

Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 7:13 PM GMT
Oh and hospital testing accounts for lots and obviously still happens on Christmas Day. As I said though, I haven’t dug into the figures. Do your own research?
Report nineteen points December 31, 2020 7:20 PM GMT
i did.thats the figures.totally unbelievable and an insult to our intelligence
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 7:25 PM GMT
I've provided 2 egs of cancers which are 20 years and over 60 years difference in age groups, I'd say that is fairly substantial. The fact as a supposed doctor ( stifles laughter) you are continuing on with your ridiculous assertion that there isnt much difference in age demographics between covid / cancer deaths when 1 in 5 new cancers are diagnosed in under 55s is laughable.
Report unitedbiscuits December 31, 2020 7:29 PM GMT
I'm kind of with wolf and his pack here..we basically cannot trust anything that comes out of the mouth of Govt nor the state broadcaster (that's the BBC in case you wonder).

But then I can't forget that "the pack" are the same people who made EU doctors and nurses unwelcome in this country and devalued the currency that made Britain attractive in a free moving labour market so, if the UK cannot staff its Nightingale Hospitals, it's because it didn't think it through...

You reap what you sow.
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 7:36 PM GMT
There's no pack , just stating facts using age stats of the 2 conditions. I haven't a clue what the second paragraph is supposed to mean
Report unitedbiscuits December 31, 2020 7:37 PM GMT
You voted Leave?
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 7:37 PM GMT
Absolutely
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 7:38 PM GMT
As did the majority of the population, what that has to do with stopping unskilled migration which wouldnt include nurses, drs Ive no idea
Report unitedbiscuits December 31, 2020 7:40 PM GMT
Qed

I know where you are getting your newsfeed from. What it won't tell you is that you (are 14m like you) are responsible for the fact that this country cannot man the hospitals it set up to deal with the pandemic. because you encouraged the EU/NH staff to "go home."
Report nineteen points December 31, 2020 7:42 PM GMT
biscuits,please dont label or box me into any group or side.i always speak my mind for myself.i say what i think about any matter.sometimes i will agree with certain folk,sometimes not.i believe everybody has a right to an opinion whether i agree with it or not.no offence intended by the way, just letting you know where i stand
Report unitedbiscuits December 31, 2020 7:44 PM GMT
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-citizens-nhs-crisis-migration-boris-johnson-hospital-health-a9239791.html

22,000 gone home - enough to staff the Nightingale Hospitals, wolf?
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 7:45 PM GMT
so there we have it then, on a covid forum united biscuits you post a picture of a load of thugs supposedly representing 17 million ( not 14) that voted to allow skilled migrants instead of unskilled ones to arrive. There is always someone ranting about racism on some thread, it's like a disease in peoples brains they have to let it out whether it's football on the knee, covid or anything. If you want to have a look at why hospitals are overrun with pateints, you may want to have a look at Blairs government circa 1997
Report unitedbiscuits December 31, 2020 7:45 PM GMT
nineteen points - Fair enough but it seemed to this reader that a few posters were enjoying a bit of a pile on to fatslogger.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- December 31, 2020 7:45 PM GMT
The aussie xxxx pints based system will save us...
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 7:47 PM GMT
so how do you explain in 2015 before brexit the NHS was overrun then united biscuits

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/30/nhs-gps-are-exhausted-ae-is-overrun-and-hospitals-are-broke-what-went-wrong
.

A quote from your favourite rag
Report unitedbiscuits December 31, 2020 7:47 PM GMT
There is always someone ranting about racism on some thread, it's like a disease in peoples brains they have to let it out whether it's football on the knee, covid or anything. If you want to have a look at why hospitals are overrun with pateints, you may want to have a look at Blairs government circa 1997

Sorry, what does that even mean?
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- December 31, 2020 7:49 PM GMT
Lol fatslogger tells them what questions they should be asking
as well as answering relevant questions and padding up to owt
pitched outside leg stump, unless it's so rank that he dispatches
it over square leg for 6.
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 7:49 PM GMT
The NHS has been unfit for purpose for years but if all else fails, blame the tories, brexit like a never ending screeching melody. If you don't understand what Blairs 1997 administration did to UK numbers overstretching the economy, you shouldn't be on a politics forum - do some research
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 7:50 PM GMT
Why were hospitals overrun in 2015 united biscuits ?
Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 7:55 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 1:25PM, wolf3011 wrote:


I've provided 2 egs of cancers which are 20 years and over 60 years difference in age groups, I'd say that is fairly substantial. The fact as a supposed doctor ( stifles laughter) you are continuing on with your ridiculous assertion that there isnt much difference in age demographics between covid / cancer deaths when 1 in 5 new cancers are diagnosed in under 55s is laughable.


The screeching sound is the goalposts moving. Osteosarcoma is a very rare cancer. That’s like me providing stats for Covid deaths in people with learning disability and saying they prove that Covid kills lots of young people. Breast cancer was the other one? You gave age of diagnosis. Other than that though, really good point.

Report unitedbiscuits December 31, 2020 7:56 PM GMT
Demand for NHS will always outrun supply and pinch points will always happen in winter.

But building hospitals then not being able to staff them is a f**k up of a different magnitude.
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 7:57 PM GMT
so when diagnosed with cancer patients need no treatment fatslogger? 1 in 5 new cancers are under 55 and you are comparing that to a disease that has an average age of death of 82 with the vast majority not even knowing they have covid its that mild. You aren't Dr who by perchance ?
Report nineteen points December 31, 2020 7:57 PM GMT
no biscuits thats not my intention.i question him on issues,he answers,we disagree and vice versa.no animosity on my part
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 7:58 PM GMT
so once again, why were hospitals overrun long before brexit united biscuits?
Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 7:59 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 1:57PM, wolf3011 wrote:


so when diagnosed with cancer patients need no treatment fatslogger? 1 in 5 new cancers are under 55 and you are comparing that to a disease that has an average age of death of 82 with the vast majority not even knowing they have covid its that mild. You aren't Dr who by perchance ?


No mate, you were comparing it to Covid, not me and you’re doing it without even a ghost of an idea of what the comparison tells you, or of the fact that if you cared about cancer deaths, you’d be agitating for stricter Covid measures. I just pointed out your cognitive dissonance to you, with the usual results for pointing out cognitive dissonance to people.

Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 8:01 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 1:47PM, unitedbiscuits wrote:


There is always someone ranting about racism on some thread, it's like a disease in peoples brains they have to let it out whether it's football on the knee, covid or anything. If you want to have a look at why hospitals are overrun with pateints, you may want to have a look at Blairs government circa 1997Sorry, what does that even mean?


It’s a bit of racism. He’s saying that immigration is the reason why the NHS is overrun. He’s ignoring that immigrants under the Blair governments were disproportionately young and disproportionately NHS workers, so contributed to less NHS pressure rather than more.

Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 8:02 PM GMT
Oh and around 80% of people who have Covid have symptoms, so they do know they have it. But what’s one fact you’ve no idea about in such an ocean of them?
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 8:02 PM GMT
Do you read what you type fatslogger?

"On average the age of diagnosis of Covid is much lower than the age of diagnosis of cancer. You still don’t seem to have a good handle on the word “affects”.

While you’re not answering questions about the word “affects” and whether we should investigate or treat cancer in elderly people, how about I ask you another question you won’t answer? What do you mean by “a vast majority” in your post above?

Oh and in passing, quite a few people have cancer without realising it, probably a higher proportion than have Covid without knowing, depending on how you define cancer and how hard you look for it. Why do you think we have screening programmes?

Are you drunk?
Report unitedbiscuits December 31, 2020 8:02 PM GMT
so once again, why were hospitals overrun long before brexit united biscuits?


They had a lot of new hospitals but couldn't find the staff to open them?

Or does that seem to you -as it seems to me - a different order of f**k up?
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 8:03 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 2:02PM, unitedbiscuits wrote:


so once again, why were hospitals overrun long before brexit united biscuits?They had a lot of new hospitals but couldn't find the staff to open them?Or does that seem to you -as it seems to me - a different order of f**k up?


Whether it's a fck up or not, posting a picture of what looks like the EDL and linking it to brexit which hasn't even happened yet is the most ridiculous post of the thread.

Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 8:05 PM GMT
The idea that the hospitals which were overrun last year before we voted to leave ( now in the supposed transition period) would be fine if we remained in the EU is as ridiculous a notion as slogger being a dr
Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 8:05 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 2:02PM, wolf3011 wrote:


Do you read what you type fatslogger? "On average the age of diagnosis of Covid is much lower than the age of diagnosis of cancer. You still don’t seem to have a good handle on the word “affects”.While you’re not answering questions about the word “affects” and whether we should investigate or treat cancer in elderly people, how about I ask you another question you won’t answer? What do you mean by “a vast majority” in your post above?Oh and in passing, quite a few people have cancer without realising it, probably a higher proportion than have Covid without knowing, depending on how you define cancer and how hard you look for it. Why do you think we have screening programmes?Are you drunk?


How many times did you read that trying to understand it? Seems to have taken you a while to be sure that you weren't going to get there. Tell me which bit(s) you struggled with and I’ll try again.

Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 8:10 PM GMT
Youve just said you don't compare the two illnesses of cancer and covid yet have spent several posts doing so lol... do you have learning difficulties? It's a genuine question as your posting style isn't indicative of a fully functioning adult male.
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 8:11 PM GMT
There's no racism fatslogger, it's a numbers issue not a race issue. When all your arguments fail accuse someone of racism lol
Report unitedbiscuits December 31, 2020 8:12 PM GMT
No animosity on my part either, my posts tend to attract challenges rather than friends but that's the way it should be, and I believe what I say.


Well, let me depart on a note we can all agree on: good riddance to 2020 and may 2021 be a good one for all of you.

Happy New Year.
Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 8:15 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 2:10PM, wolf3011 wrote:


Youve just said you don't compare the two illnesses of cancer and covid yet have spent several posts doing so lol... do you have learning difficulties? It's a genuine question as your posting style isn't indicative of a fully functioning adult male.


I was explaining the bizarre and erroneous nature of your comparisons to you. Like I said, with the usual result of pointing out that people are terribly illogical to them, which is that they become (more) incoherent and irritated.

You were also the person that raised the issue of racism. If the shoe fits, you can just wear it. Given that the numbers, as I’ve pointed out, show the opposite of what you say they do, there must be something else going on, mustn’t there?

Report boxingthefox December 31, 2020 8:17 PM GMT
a fond good evening to you UB Happy New Year mate. Love
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 8:17 PM GMT
"I love that you post the most rampaging straw man yet before complaining that I’ve straw manned you by asking you a few questions. I mean, if you chose to answer them, your position would be clear, wouldn’t it? "

I mean imagine getting treated off a Dr posting this and then asking for someone to post evidence that cancer deaths outweigh covid deaths but then admitting " There aren’t actually ONS cancer figures for this year yet but probably cancer will end up having killed a little under twice as many people from March to December as Covid, which seems a fair enough comparison.
Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 8:21 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 2:17PM, wolf3011 wrote:


"I love that you post the most rampaging straw man yet before complaining that I’ve straw manned you by asking you a few questions. I mean, if you chose to answer them, your position would be clear, wouldn’t it? "I mean imagine getting treated off a Dr posting this and then asking for someone to post evidence that cancer deaths outweigh covid deaths but then admitting " There aren’t actually ONS cancer figures for this year yet but probably cancer will end up having killed a little under twice as many people from March to December as Covid, which seems a fair enough comparison.


You’ve just admitted that you made something up without stats, when we were all so confident you had a really solid evidential backing for what you were saying.

Also, screeching goalposts again, I didn’t ask you to prove that cancer deaths were higher than Covid deaths, I asked you to support what you actually said. As I keep telling you, I don’t really expect you to read and understand my posts but you could at least make the effort to read your own and work out what you’re saying.

Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 8:21 PM GMT
"No mate, you were comparing it to Covid, not me and you’re doing it without even a ghost of an idea of what the comparison tells you, or of the fact that if you cared about cancer deaths, you’d be agitating for stricter Covid measures."

https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-us/cancer-news/news-report/2020-07-08-urgent-cancer-referrals-being-turned-down-during-coronavirus-pandemic
.
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 8:25 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 2:21PM, Fatslogger wrote:


Dec 31, 2020 --  9:17PM, wolf3011 wrote:"I love that you post the most rampaging straw man yet before complaining that I’ve straw manned you by asking you a few questions. I mean, if you chose to answer them, your position would be clear, wouldn’t it? "I mean imagine getting treated off a Dr posting this and then asking for someone to post evidence that cancer deaths outweigh covid deaths but then admitting " There aren’t actually ONS cancer figures for this year yet but probably cancer will end up having killed a little under twice as many people from March to December as Covid, which seems a fair enough comparison.You’ve just admitted that you made something up without stats, when we were all so confident you had a really solid evidential backing for what you were saying. Also, screeching goalposts again, I didn’t ask you to prove that cancer deaths were higher than Covid deaths, I asked you to support what you actually said. As I keep telling you, I don’t really expect you to read and understand my posts but you could at least make the effort to read your own and work out what you’re saying.


Where have I just " admitted I made something up without stats" when even the stats you put up yourself show twice as many cancer deaths to covid deaths. Why would you ask for stats to support cancer deaths dont outweigh covid deaths unless you are trolling again? By admitting they do you have admitted to asking for stats which you knew supported what I said so are basically talking out of your rear end.

Can you answer my earlier question, do you have learning difficulties? Every post is basically accusing me of saying things I havent said and making yourself look more ridiculous by asking for statistics that prove you are wrong

Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 8:25 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 2:21PM, wolf3011 wrote:


"No mate, you were comparing it to Covid, not me and you’re doing it without even a ghost of an idea of what the comparison tells you, or of the fact that if you cared about cancer deaths, you’d be agitating for stricter Covid measures."https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-us/cancer-news/news-report/2020-07-08-urgent-cancer-referrals-being-turned-down-during-coronavirus-pandemic.


Yes, this is a really, really bad thing and exactly the reason why you should be advocating for stricter Covid control measures, if you really cared about cancer. Please explain how an overrun NHS is good for cancer treatment?

Funnily enough, you never quite got round to answering this earlier:

So you’re saying is that we should be content to let the pandemic continue unabated and overwhelm hospitals further, resulting in much more disruption to cancer care (along with all other non Covid diseases)? Or we should try hard to control it? Or some other course of action?

I’m guessing this was just an unfortunate oversight on your part and you’ll give it a really good go now.

Report boxingthefox December 31, 2020 8:27 PM GMT
Guys, any chance of a 4 hour truce,??????
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 8:28 PM GMT
Why should we be asking for stricter covid measures when millions of people aren't accessing their GPS when hospitals throughout virtually all of 2020 havent become overrun?

"In some areas, cancer referrals dropped by 75% at the peak of the pandemic, mainly because people weren’t coming forward with symptoms and staying home to protect the NHS."

Much of this is down to hysterical people like you covid obsessed to the point of ignoring everything else
Report Charlie December 31, 2020 8:35 PM GMT
Not sure if these are the latest stats but they do go along way to disproving what our furry friend is saying:

The older you get the more likely you are to die from cancer (not unexpected);
https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/mortality/age#heading-Zero

Deaths from cancer for children aged 1-14 are less than 1% of all deaths from cancer:
https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/childrens-cancers/mortality#heading-Three
.
Report boxingthefox December 31, 2020 8:35 PM GMT
I had 2 heart ops cancelled this year, nearly 'went' in Sept but came out of it with no help from A&E staff AGAIN!!!.

I'm not arguing with anyone on here about this as it would benefit me not one jot.

HAPPY NEW YEAR GUYS. Love
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 8:37 PM GMT
One in 5 new cancer diagnoses are under 55 , what deaths in under 14 have to do with anything Ive no idea
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 8:37 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 2:35PM, boxingthefox wrote:


I had 2 heart ops cancelled this year, nearly 'went' in Sept but came out of it with no help from A&E staff AGAIN!!!.I'm not arguing with anyone on here about this as it would benefit me not one jot.HAPPY NEW YEAR GUYS.


Indeed happy new year

Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 8:40 PM GMT
So what you’re saying is that the Covid control measures that have mostly prevented hospitals becoming completely overwhelmed up to now, when hospitals are overwhelmed, were too strict, because err, it would have been better for cancer care for hospitals to have been totally overwhelmed for much longer periods of time? That would definitely not have talked people out of accessing hospital care, which in any case wouldn’t have been available because the hospitals were overwhelmed?

To pick a couple of examples, why do you think so much chemotherapy and surgery has been cancelled?

Happy new year btf. Hope you get your surgery soon.
Report boxingthefox December 31, 2020 8:40 PM GMT
Wink
Report boxingthefox December 31, 2020 8:41 PM GMT
^^^ Fatslogger and wolf.
Report Charlie December 31, 2020 8:43 PM GMT
wolf3011 • December 31, 2020 5:48 PM GMT
I'll put it as simply as I can so even someone as blinkered as you can grasp it fatslogger

1) Cancer kills far more people of all ages and primarily the younger than covid
2) The average age of death from cancer is much lower than covid
3) Cancer can kill tens of thousands of children and people under 40 in the UK, covid can't


FS did ask but you ignored him. Where do you get these stats from?
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 8:46 PM GMT
"what you’re saying is that the Covid control measures that have mostly prevented hospitals becoming completely overwhelmed up to now," no evidence of that other than propaganda. 

We hear this every year

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/25/hospital-beds-at-record-low-in-england-as-nhs-struggles-with-demand
.
Report DenzilPenberthy December 31, 2020 8:48 PM GMT
This was posted by GEORGE B yesterday it sums it up well

https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1344198385465765888
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 8:49 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 2:43PM, Charlie wrote:


wolf3011 • December 31, 2020 5:48 PM GMTI'll put it as simply as I can so even someone as blinkered as you can grasp it fatslogger1) Cancer kills far more people of all ages and primarily the younger than covid2) The average age of death from cancer is much lower than covid3) Cancer can kill tens of thousands of children and people under 40 in the UK, covid can'tFS did ask but you ignored him. Where do you get these stats from?


off you pop old troll, its been discussed for hours and Im not spending the rest of the night on here repeating what's already been said. You believe that there are similar numbers of covid deaths to cancer deaths and the average age of death from a cancer patient is 82 if it gets you hard on news years eve.. enjoy the rest of the night and presumably next year holed away from covid in cupboards. Happy new year to the rest

Report DenzilPenberthy December 31, 2020 8:52 PM GMT
That's their MO wolf3011 happy new year
Report unitedbiscuits December 31, 2020 8:52 PM GMT
^^^ Fatslogger and wolf.

It's like two paranoid schizophrenics housed opposite each other in rooms with no curtains and no off light.
Report Charlie December 31, 2020 8:52 PM GMT
I gave you the stats above. You gave nothing apart from your usual insults.
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 8:52 PM GMT
Cheers Denzil
Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 8:54 PM GMT
Wolf -

Where have I just " admitted I made something up without stats" when even the stats you put up yourself show twice as many cancer deaths to covid deaths. Why would you ask for stats to support cancer deaths dont outweigh covid deaths unless you are trolling again? By admitting they do you have admitted to asking for stats which you knew supported what I said so are basically talking out of your rear end.

Can you answer my earlier question, do you have learning difficulties? Every post is basically accusing me of saying things I havent said and making yourself look more ridiculous by asking for statistics that prove you are wrong


Like I say, it’s generally better if you read your own post and therefore have an idea of what you said. To help you, Charlie has quoted you again. Given that I’ve found and interpreted some stats for you, you should probably be grateful that I’ve pointed out where you were wrong.
Report boxingthefox December 31, 2020 8:55 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 2:17PM, boxingthefox wrote:


a fond good evening to you UB Happy New Year mate.


For you UB

Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 8:58 PM GMT
Fatslogger will be on here for the rest of the night determined to have last word despite admitting he was wrong "
There aren’t actually ONS cancer figures for this year yet but probably cancer will end up having killed a little under twice as many people from March to December as Covid, which seems a fair enough comparison". This confirms what I said so presumably he is arguing with himself akin to a scene from the exorcist where he is possessed

Christ knows what meds this chaps on Grin
Report DenzilPenberthy December 31, 2020 9:06 PM GMT
The same clique (why who knows Wink) do this year round always defending the establishment line with no other possible consideration whatever the circumstance,on top of that they never prove a fcking thing or properly discuss any ideas,it's fcking ignorance basically.
It's embarrassing that people like us give them our time,outside of here you wouldn't give them a minute boredom has alot to answer for.
Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 9:08 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 2:58PM, wolf3011 wrote:


Fatslogger will be on here for the rest of the night determined to have last word despite admitting he was wrong " There aren’t actually ONS cancer figures for this year yet but probably cancer will end up having killed a little under twice as many people from March to December as Covid, which seems a fair enough comparison". This confirms what I said so presumably he is arguing with himself akin to a scene from the exorcist where he is possessed Christ knows what meds this chaps on


No you’re fine wolf, I’m giving up now. Arguing with someone who doesn’t even read and understand his own posts either the first time or when they’re repeatedly quoted back at him is getting a bit wearing. Funny though, that you thought putting it in numbered points would make it simpler but it was still far too complicated for you.

Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 9:10 PM GMT
fatslogger change your medication, youve just spent the last 3 hours arguing with yourself agreeing with my point. What's funniest of all about it is you don't see it Crazy
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 9:13 PM GMT
The continual patronising tone in your posts doesn't change the fact you're a certifiable nutjob asking posters multiple times to post sources of something they admit is correct.
Report wolf3011 December 31, 2020 9:16 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 3:06PM, DenzilPenberthy wrote:


The same clique (why who knows ) do this year round always defending the establishment line with no other possible consideration whatever the circumstance,on top of that they never prove a fcking thing or properly discuss any ideas,it's fcking ignorance basically.It's embarrassing that people like us give them our time,outside of here you wouldn't give them a minute boredom has alot to answer for.


Absolutely, if someone knew a point was correct why would they ask for its source multiple times unless they were barking mad. If I said tomorrow morning the sun was coming up in the east slogger would ask for a source and after hours of patronising rubbish admit it was coming up in the east saying I was wrong lol

Report DenzilPenberthy December 31, 2020 9:24 PM GMT
Aye,these conversations on here aren't like conversations with real people.
There's no give and take,no discussion,no desire to learn or acknowledge I mean who the fck are these cnts? Laugh
Report frog1000 December 31, 2020 9:24 PM GMT

Dec 31, 2020 -- 12:27PM, Fatslogger wrote:


Dec 31, 2020 --  7:18PM, frog1000 wrote:9 months.Hundreds and Hundred of billions of pounds thrown at the NHS.Many times their normal annualAnd still they cannot cope.I was all for clapping for them early on but the people running the NHS have failed miserably to deal with the uplift this winter - or so they are claiming.How many more resources do they want?Naught NHS chiefs not being able to magic up trained staff in 9 months.


No one is asking for that.

Just keep things clean and stop so many people catching Covid inside hospitals.

Just maybe sort out the NHS test and trace system that has had billions spent on it.

and sort out the NHS app that no one is using.

and sort out the red tape you have imposed to stop tens of thousands of ex-doctors and ex-nurses coming back to help with jabs and other tasks.

and get the GPs to open up and start seeing people.

and what about the 500,000 people that volunteered as NHS helpers. With the hundreds of billions put into Covid why could u not make use of them for some tasks?

The NHS has had hundreds of billions extra thrown at it yet have managed to increase waiting lists from months to years.

It has switched from the national health serivce to the national covid service.

It has failed at its time of need and likely taken the whole economy down with it.

Report DenzilPenberthy December 31, 2020 9:24 PM GMT
They relentlessly report you to get you banned then hound you when you come back Laugh
Report Capt__F December 31, 2020 9:47 PM GMT
btf


best of luck
Report boxingthefox December 31, 2020 9:51 PM GMT
Cheers Capt, Happy New year. Happy
Report Fatslogger December 31, 2020 10:32 PM GMT
Frog -

No one is asking for that.

Just keep things clean and stop so many people catching Covid inside hospitals.

Just maybe sort out the NHS test and trace system that has had billions spent on it.

and sort out the NHS app that no one is using.

and sort out the red tape you have imposed to stop tens of thousands of ex-doctors and ex-nurses coming back to help with jabs and other tasks.

and get the GPs to open up and start seeing people.

and what about the 500,000 people that volunteered as NHS helpers. With the hundreds of billions put into Covid why could u not make use of them for some tasks?

The NHS has had hundreds of billions extra thrown at it yet have managed to increase waiting lists from months to years.

It has switched from the national health serivce to the national covid service.

It has failed at its time of need and likely taken the whole economy down with it
.

If hospitals are overcrowded because they’re full of people with a highly infectious disease which can be infectious before the onset of or in the absence of symptoms, what would you expect to happen? It’s not about cleanliness, it’s about crowding.

The NHS test and trace system and app are misnomers. Neither is part of the NHS. It’s just the government lying by using NHS branding. This is so well known I can only believe you’re posting this in bad faith.

I don’t think I’ve imposed any red tape but presumably from this you’d not want anyone to have to demonstrate they were still competent before returning to work having retired.

You know why the GPs aren’t open for anything more than a small number of in person appointments. No doubt you’d complain about Covid spread in GP surgeries if they were.

Thing with half a million untrained people is that they probably can’t do work that requires years of training, like the large majority of roles in health care.

You also know why waiting lists have risen. Funnily enough, you make it clear why in the very next line.

How has it failed? By not preventing lots of cases of Covid coming in? Nothing to do with the NHS that. You’re thinking of government and the population there.
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