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Angoose
27 Oct 20 12:14
Joined:
Date Joined: 18 Jul 02
| Topic/replies: 25,601 | Blogger: Angoose's blog
Coronavirus: Antibodies fall rapidly after COVID infection, dashing hopes of herd immunity - study
Researchers find that the number of people with antibodies in their study fell by 26% since lockdown measures were relaxed.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-herd-immunity-hopes-dashed-as-study-shows-covid-19-antibodies-fall-rapidly-after-recovery-12115510

Hopes that the population will become immune to COVID-19 have been dashed by new research showing antibodies fall rapidly after recovering from the disease.

So-called herd immunity has been proposed by some scientists as a better alternative to lockdowns in tackling the coronavirus pandemic.

It would require around 50-60% of the population to have protection against the virus so it could no longer transmit efficiently.

However, a major UK study has found that rather than building immunity over time, the number of people with antibodies has fallen by 26% since lockdown was eased over the summer.

Researchers from Imperial College London screened 365,000 people over three rounds of testing between June and September.

Results of the REACT-2 study showed that 6% of people had antibodies to the virus around the time lockdown was eased in late June and early July.

But by the start of the second wave last month, this dropped to just 4.4%.

Professor Helen Ward, one of the researchers, said the new results strongly suggest that herd immunity is unachievable.

"When you think 95 people out of 100 are still likely to be susceptible, we are a long, long way from anything resembling population level protection against onward transmission," she said.

"It's not something you can use as a strategy for infection control [for COVID-19] in the population."

The finding is another blow to scientists behind the controversial Great Barrington Declaration, who had suggested that vulnerable people could be shielded at home while the virus spreads through the young and healthy to build up herd immunity.

The proposal has been strongly criticised by many other scientists.

The researchers found younger people, those from black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) communities and health workers had higher antibody levels, possibly because they were in regular contact with infected individuals.

The fall in antibodies suggest people will be regularly re-infected, just as they are with related coronaviruses that cause the common cold.

Professor Wendy Barclay, an infectious diseases specialist and one of the researchers, said antibodies peak three to four weeks after symptoms and then drop away, as they do for related viruses.

She said: "Seasonal coronaviruses that circulate every winter and cause common colds can re-infect people after six to 12 months.

"We suspect that the way the body reacts to infection with this new coronavirus is similar to that."

There have so far only been a handful of documented cases of re-infection.

Dr Alexander Edwards, associate professor in biomedical technology at the University of Reading, said: "What is not clear is how quickly antibody levels would rise again if a person encounters the virus a second time.

"It is possible they will still rapidly respond, and either have a milder illness, or remain protected through immune memory.

"So even if the rapid antibody test is no longer positive, the person may still be protected from re-infection."

The study, which is yet to be peer reviewed, only measured antibodies.

It is possible that another arm of the immune system called T-cells, may remain active, but there is currently no available test for them.

Scientists are cautious about using the results to predict the protection provided by a vaccine.

They say immunisations may lead to a more robust antibody response.

Health Minister Lord Bethell said the study "is a critical piece of research, helping us to understand the nature of COVID-19 antibodies over time, and improve our understanding about the virus itself".

He added: "We rely on this kind of important research to inform our continued response to the disease, so we can continue to take the right action at the right time.

"It is also important that everyone knows what this means for them - this study will help in our fight against the virus, but testing positive for antibodies does not mean you are immune to COVID-19."
Pause Switch to Standard View There Is No Herd Immunity
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Report Fatslogger October 28, 2020 6:35 PM GMT

Oct 28, 2020 -- 1:27PM, tobermory wrote:


I don't know what the basis is to say

Report Fatslogger October 28, 2020 6:37 PM GMT
I asked whether the Sweden having less cases initially than Western Europe contention had actually been put forward by anyone. I’ve suggested that it probably had about the same as Spain and France and slightly fewer, if anything, than the U.K. and Belgium, going from deaths and seroconversion data. These are obviously not definitive numbers. Germany pretty clearly had fewer cases, for example.
Report frog1000 October 28, 2020 6:38 PM GMT

Oct 28, 2020 -- 1:27PM, Charlie wrote:


FrogI posted this a while ago:The Swedish COVID-19 Response Is a Disaster. It Shouldn’t Be a Model for the Rest of the Worldhttps://time.com/5899432/sweden-coronovirus-disaster/Does that help you?


Interesting article bashing the Swedish response to Covid.

Fair enough.

I have not praised or bashed the Swedish response. It is not relevant to this topic.

My observation was why are deaths not climbing in Sweden at the rate they are in other countries that have seen also seen a lot of deaths such as France, Italy, UK, Spain, Belgium etc. I suggested it could be immunity built up early on in the younger members of their society mixing whilst the young people in lockdown countries were not.

It is only a suggestion on a topic box on immunity.

Report Angoose October 28, 2020 6:42 PM GMT
So many questions, so many factors, so many theories, so little clear cut evidence.
Report nineteen points October 28, 2020 6:51 PM GMT
now that you all agree with me about the lockdown madness etc

can any of you boffins explain to stupid old me,how does london,with a population density of 5,701 per sq/km, have a 7 day average of 8 deaths a day, compared to the rest of the country,next highest 520,where these deaths are spiralling out of control,not my words mind.

does natural immunity exist or are londons figures cooked to keep it open?
Report frog1000 October 28, 2020 6:52 PM GMT
The study referenced by Angoose at the top writes:

The relevant thresholds for protection in humans who are naturally exposed to virus remain to be defined and will continue to be informed by detailed studies of outbreaks.  In addition it is currently not clear what contribution T cell immunity and memory responses will play in protective immunity during re-exposure. As such, it is not possible to say with certainty that the loss of antibody positivity in the LFIA would correlate with an increased risk of an individual being reinfected.


It appears immunity is not just a case of measuring who has live anti-bodies in their system right now.
Report Charlie October 28, 2020 6:53 PM GMT
My observation was why are deaths not climbing in Sweden at the rate they are in other countries that have seen also seen a lot of deaths such as France, Italy, UK, Spain, Belgium etc I'll have to keep repeating that you are not comparing the same thing that is why I said compare Sweden to its neighbours.

I suggested it could be immunity built up early on in the younger members of their society mixing whilst the young people in lockdown countries were not. If you compare Sweden to Norway, Denmark and Finland that didn't do the same as Sweden and had far fewer deaths and are still on a par with Sweden now, how can you conclude that?
Report frog1000 October 28, 2020 6:53 PM GMT

Oct 28, 2020 -- 1:51PM, nineteen points wrote:


now that you all agree with me about the lockdown madness etccan any of you boffins explain to stupid old me,how does london,with a population density of 5,701 per sq/km, have a 7 day average of 8 deaths a day, compared to the rest of the country,next highest 520,where these deaths are spiralling out of control,not my words mind.does natural immunity exist or are londons figures cooked to keep it open?


London went into lockdown later (in terms of the amount of people with the virus) than other populated areas so more people have immunity in London.

Report Angoose October 28, 2020 6:55 PM GMT
There we go again, trying to rationalize the whole sorry affair in to a simple equation.
Report frog1000 October 28, 2020 7:00 PM GMT
Interesting topic. There seems a very keen cohort of people that want to dismiss any concept that immunity could play a factor in slowing the spread of this virus.

People want to dismiss Sweden because it does not fit into their belief system.

How do they explain London having so few deaths compared to the North East and North West this autumn?
Report Magic__Daps October 28, 2020 7:00 PM GMT
Angoose - what part do you not understand about the media, and why people get angry?

The report on every single news channel yesterday regarding the immunity against Covid, is worded and reported on that will strike fear into an already generally feared population. They didn't report that antibodies reduce in many (unsure if it is all) diseases, just stated this as being fact and how people will need vaccines every 6 months etc. There is nothing clear cut or new in the "study" was there? But our good old media report it in the worst possible way.

Where was the other side? Where was the context, or other facts? Nowhere was it questioned with what I seen, and we then had the TV Doctors stating it as gospel and that's how it is with no balance whatsoever. Why hasn't anyone asked how 50 million people has had it and only a handful have so say had it twice?

If you are happy to watch that and just take it then that is up to you, but I think it is shocking and they should be held accountable. The vulnerable who are already scared to go and do anything safely, will now be even more worried. Still who cares, it's just the media.
Report Charlie October 28, 2020 7:01 PM GMT
So Frog has finally come clean and stated his stance. Took a while.
Report frog1000 October 28, 2020 7:04 PM GMT

Oct 28, 2020 -- 2:01PM, Charlie wrote:


So Frog has finally come clean and stated his stance. Took a while.


Gosh.

Just seeking insights on the topic of the thread. Do you have any views on immunity to covid?

Report tobermory October 28, 2020 7:06 PM GMT

Oct 28, 2020 -- 1:25PM, Angoose wrote:


Why do individuals who get upset with a media report always resort to comments such as "nobody seems to question anything in the media" ?Don't they realize that they are themselves questioning it, and isn't is somewhat presumptuous to assume that all media consumers are incapable of applying critical thinking to such reports ?


Because the media reporting is so one sided in favour of lockdowns until vaccine, and reports like this push that narrative by saying there can be no herd immunity, with no one in the article invited to question, when the situation is a lot more complex than presented. Yes some people here are questioning it but the majority will just think this is what the experts say so that is 'the science' and then you get polls with 70%+ in favour of more restrictions. It would be a lot less high if the media presented a more balanced view of the debate.

Report Charlie October 28, 2020 7:09 PM GMT
Yes, see OP. There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that herd immunity exists. Not a single shred of evidence from a reliable source. You have cranks who think it does and I'm putting you in that category.

London didn't go into lockdown later than other areas.
Report Charlie October 28, 2020 7:10 PM GMT
That was to Frog.
Report Angoose October 28, 2020 7:12 PM GMT

Oct 28, 2020 -- 2:00PM, Magic__Daps wrote:


Angoose - what part do you not understand about the media, and why people get angry? The report on every single news channel yesterday regarding the immunity against Covid, is worded and reported on that will strike fear into an already generally feared population. They didn't report that antibodies reduce in many (unsure if it is all) diseases, just stated this as being fact and how people will need vaccines every 6 months etc. There is nothing clear cut or new in the "study" was there? But our good old media report it in the worst possible way. Where was the other side? Where was the context, or other facts? Nowhere was it questioned with what I seen, and we then had the TV Doctors stating it as gospel and that's how it is with no balance whatsoever. Why hasn't anyone asked how 50 million people has had it and only a handful have so say had it twice? If you are happy to watch that and just take it then that is up to you, but I think it is shocking and they should be held accountable. The vulnerable who are already scared to go and do anything safely, will now be even more worried. Still who cares, it's just the media.


You've kinda missed the point of what I wrote and now you've gone off on one regarding the limitations of the media.
And here comes tobermory to join the party.

Wonderful how the media is balanced when they present an argument that we support, but biased when they present an argument that we don't.

There was a very good programme on Radio 4 just last week that discussed balance in the media.
Well worth a listen if you have the time.

Report frog1000 October 28, 2020 7:14 PM GMT
My memory from back in March was that London was described as 'weeks ahead' of other areas of the country in terms of cases with the spread far greater there than other areas of the country before the lockdown.
Report Charlie October 28, 2020 7:18 PM GMT
Frog
Just post some evidence about herd immunity please. Any reputable source will do. There are many, many sources that refute it, the OP being one of those.
Report frog1000 October 28, 2020 7:24 PM GMT

Oct 28, 2020 -- 2:18PM, Charlie wrote:


FrogJust post some evidence about herd immunity please. Any reputable source will do. There are many, many sources that refute it, the OP being one of those.


Covid has been around for almost a year.

The World Health Organisation says that 10% of the world's population has been infected in that time.

How many people have been ill from Covid twice that you have heard of?

Report peckerdunne October 28, 2020 7:25 PM GMT
immunity in London has nothing to do with it, and you are about to find out over the next number of weeks.
Report Charlie October 28, 2020 7:28 PM GMT
Frog you are just going over stuff mentioned above.
Report nineteen points October 28, 2020 7:31 PM GMT
come on charlie you give us your opinion of things instead of just pulling everybody else to bits
Report Angoose October 28, 2020 7:31 PM GMT
And now the French follow the Germans in announcing a national shutdown.
Starts on Friday until at least 1 December.
Report frog1000 October 28, 2020 7:31 PM GMT

Oct 28, 2020 -- 2:28PM, Charlie wrote:


Frog you are just going over stuff mentioned above.


Not sure what you are asking for.

I suggest that very few people have had Covid twice. Single figures reported. So rare it makes the news.

That means some form of immunity exists. That is no a crank idea. It is a fact.

What evidence do you have that their is no immunity?

Report Magic__Daps October 28, 2020 7:32 PM GMT
Angoose - how many times did you see this topic reported yesterday, and how many reports had anyone who were giving an alternative view? I didn't see any at all. It was reported as if it was the only disease that antibodies disappeared over time, and that was perceived that there isn't any immunity and we would all need a vaccine twice per year. Any reporter, journo could have easily reported it with a balanced view, but they didn't. They preferred to simply keep going down the fear route, putting even more people at risk.

If you think the media are not biased then that is your choice, but I just cannot see how anyone would think that the reporting is balanced at all.
Report tobermory October 28, 2020 7:33 PM GMT
London didn't go into lockdown later than other areas.

Depends whether you define late or early by the date or the number of relative cases.

London when into lockdown with typically 33 cases per 100,000. Much of the UK had 2 or 3.

If it is all about the date than New Zealand locked down late.
Report Angoose October 28, 2020 7:33 PM GMT
What if those who have had COVID-19 have significantly modified their behaviors Confused
Report peckerdunne October 28, 2020 7:38 PM GMT
How many students left London for semester.
Report Magic__Daps October 28, 2020 7:41 PM GMT
Why would they modify their behaviour? I would expect most would go the opposite way and not care as much. Considering most who do follow the rules catch it then you would expect many would catch it twice. A handful out of 50 million tells me there is immunity at the moment.
Report Fatslogger October 28, 2020 7:44 PM GMT

Oct 28, 2020 -- 2:09PM, Charlie wrote:


Yes, see OP. There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that herd immunity exists. Not a single shred of evidence from a reliable source. You have cranks who think it does and I'm putting you in that category.London didn't go into lockdown later than other areas.


Problem here, Charlie, I think, is that there are several conceptions of herd immunity. There’s the libertarian right / Great Barrington Declaration notion of let the old hide and / or die and we’ll get herd immunity. This is both morally depraved (once you strip out the cloaking) and scientifically extremely dubious. Then you have the notion that people who’ve had an infection are less likely to get it again, probably much less likely initially, and will also be less likely to become seriously unwell and less likely to spread it, even if they do get it again. While this is yet to be sketched out in anything more than preliminary detail for SARS-CoV2, it’s probably going to be roughly as I’ve said. It’s this latter concept that probably explains why say London is now doing far better than say Manchester, whereas it was the other way around in the initial outbreak.

Report Angoose October 28, 2020 7:50 PM GMT

Oct 28, 2020 -- 2:41PM, Magic__Daps wrote:


Why would they modify their behaviour? I would expect most would go the opposite way and not care as much. Considering most who do follow the rules catch it then you would expect many would catch it twice. A handful out of 50 million tells me there is immunity at the moment.


What such individuals have chosen to do is not known to either you or I, thus what we might expect is hardly conclusive evidence.

Report Magic__Daps October 28, 2020 10:36 PM GMT
Ok, the facts are there are only a reported handful of people out of 50 million who have caught it twice (unsure if they are even proven to have got it twice), and you think it's because everyone else have just simply modified their behaviour, and the others are not immune at all and have been lucky. I, personally would say that is evidence of immunity, albeit it could still only be short term. Each to their own I guess.
Report tobermory October 28, 2020 10:52 PM GMT

Oct 28, 2020 -- 10:17AM, edy wrote:


Reform into a federal republic and replace the House of Lords with a state chamber before it's too late!


I agree a federal system with properly demarcated powers would be better. Britain has one of the worst political structures in the world. The Tories have always had a boneheaded centralizing approach; Thatcher wanted to abolish local government altogether, so there would have been a cabinet minister in charge of collecting bin bags. Labour also instinctively believes central government should be in charge. Devolution was not something they believed in, it was a tactic to keep Labour at 40+ Westminster seats from Scotland, as they figured once a parliament in Edinburgh was created the SNP would have nothing of interest to offer voters. The mayors and police commissioners etc that they created have very limited powers compared to counterparts in other countries and hardly any powers that central government could not take back or override.

Report tobermory October 28, 2020 10:54 PM GMT
The House of Lords should simply be abolished.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- October 28, 2020 11:00 PM GMT
I would keep lords

But limit political appointments
to 100 or so and get 300 or so  elected.

Their power would be limited to that of
the unelected house today.

There is actually a lot of
Good work done by Lords alongside
the quoffing of gin.
Report tobermory October 28, 2020 11:03 PM GMT
If the first chamber is fairly elected then why restrict it with a second one ?

If the first chamber is doing stuff wrong it can be voted out.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- October 28, 2020 11:07 PM GMT
They do other work, and more detailed stuff
at times.

If lords did not exist they would need to produce something to replace it.

It's just my opinion for how
I see it, I think elected and
limited numbers prevent stuffing it
full of wasters on top of those
doing a good job.
Report jollyswagman October 28, 2020 11:18 PM GMT
https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1321521420820795392
.

there are studies showing some immunity and i am not sure the study mentioned at the top has been entirely accurately reported.
Report edy October 29, 2020 12:39 AM GMT
Dunno if it's been linked already, jolly, but here's the pre-print of the study that the opening post relates to

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/institute-of-global-health-innovation/MEDRXIV-2020-219725v1-Elliott.pdf

tl:dr - antibody levels decline over time like with other coronaviruses, faster than is seen with some other viruses, making reinfection after 1-2 years possible, but there's still many questions to answer regarding t-cells and stuff.

Herd immunity might not be workable because you might have to go through it all every year, or never get there as people are already getting reinfected before you have reached the herd immunity threshold -> better get that working vaccine.
Report edy October 29, 2020 12:39 AM GMT
or treatments
Report shiny new shoes please October 29, 2020 12:54 AM GMT
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Tallaght University Hospital, Dublin
A fifth of hospital staff acquire Covid-19 virus — study
By angelamullin 27th October 2020

Hospital staff seroprevalence study indicates almost a fifth acquiring SARS-CoV-2 infection

Initial results from a study at Dublin’s Tallaght University Hospital (TUH)  to report severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) seroprevalence of its staff indicate evidence nearly a fifth of the workers had acquired infection at some point since the onset of the pandemic.

Antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 were detected in 18 per cent of participants overall in the study undertaken by TUH over a three-month period from mid-July to mid-October.

For staff with roles involving more direct patient contact the rate was 20 per cent and for those with less direct patient contact the rate was 13 per cent.

Before this, 12 per cent of the 1,200 voluntary participants had been diagnosed with Covid-19 at some point, based on a positive swab result.

When the group who had known previous infection was excluded, the seroprevalence among those never confirmed to have infection was 7.5 per cent. However, over half of this group suspected they had infection at some point, added the hospital.

The Tallaght Antibody (TAB) Study is to follow all participants who want to remain in the study for 12 months, measuring their antibody levels at multiple time points.

Dr Anna Rose Prior, Consultant Microbiologist, said:   “This will give us two key pieces of information, the first is understanding how long a measurable level of antibodies to Covid-19 is present in participants and secondly, how many staff develop antibodies during the coming waves of infection.”

The results from the TUH study are the first of a number of investigations into SARS-CoV-2 infections in healthcare workers (HCWs) underway around Ireland.

A study to determine the prevalence of anti-SARS-CoV- Immunoglobulin G antibodies among staff across two more hospitals is underway this month.

Called the PRECISE study, it aims to determine the number of Sars-CoV-2 infections across St James’s Hospital in Dublin and University Hospital Galway (UHG).

“If we can ascertain the number of infections here in University Hospital Galway, which is in a low incidence area, and determine the areas of risk and then compare with St James’s in a high incidence area, we can learn about how the virus spreads in hospitals,” said Dr Catherine Fleming, Consultant in Infectious Diseases at UHG, and Site Lead for the PRECISE Study.

Furthermore, results from a study of more than 400 HCWs’ infections are due to become available in coming weeks.

The Health Protection Surveillance Centre (HPSC) commissioned University College Dublin (UCD) to carry out an enhanced investigation of over 400 HCWs’ infections.

An intensive study, interviews have been carried out with the participating healthcare staff  to determine exactly what their practice was in their particular healthcare setting; what personal protective equipment (PPE) was available; how they were trained to use PPE and how they applied the training and hand hygiene.
Report shiny new shoes please October 29, 2020 1:00 AM GMT
It's good to know people that work in james,Beaumont hospitals.
You lot need your heads examined .
Total nonsense you spurt out.
These are facts.
Report shiny new shoes please October 29, 2020 1:03 AM GMT
Antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 were detected in 18 per cent of participants overall in the study undertaken by TUH over a three-month period from mid-July to mid-October.

For staff with roles involving more direct patient contact the rate was 20 per cent and for those with less direct patient contact the rate was 13 per cent.
Report shiny new shoes please October 29, 2020 1:05 AM GMT
Here's who's making a fortune.
Agreements were concluded with AstraZeneca for the purchase of 300 million doses of the vaccine, with an option to purchase 100m more; Sanofi-GSK for the purchase of 300m shots; Johnson and Johnson for the initial purchase of 200m preparations, and the EU could further purchase up to an additional 200m doses.

Also, exploratory talks were underway with the German company, CureVac, with the US company, Moderna, and with BioNTech-Pfizer for millions more doses, according to Gerard Kiely, Head of the EC Representation in Ireland.
Report shiny new shoes please October 29, 2020 1:07 AM GMT
I rest my case. Lol
Report edy October 29, 2020 1:15 AM GMT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMAhXm_D9gc
Report Mexico October 29, 2020 8:25 AM GMT
Shoes

The pharmaceutical companies may be making "a fortune " as you claim but you have "rested your case" without providing enough details.

You have posted how many does have been sold in advance but not mentioned at price & how much it costs to produce & how much spent on developing a vaccine which might need to be thrown away if doesn't work.

In more details it would be reasonable to consider what these pharmaceutical giants do with money from the Western governments who have ordered millions of doses. If these companies use this profit to produce vaccine for poorer countries then it would be unfair to say they are making a fortune.
Of course there is every chance you are correct & this money is given to shareholders - just saying how many doses have been sold doesn't show they are making a fortune.
Report Fatslogger October 29, 2020 5:29 PM GMT
Also don’t see how the high seroconversion rates relate to the vaccine point. It’s specifically a group of health care staff; it doesn’t necessarily indicate long term protection (although as I’ve detailed before, it’s likely some immunity at least will persist for months to years) and even incorrectly extrapolated to other populations and making the assumption that immunity was life long, we’d still want a vaccine too!
Report nineteen points October 29, 2020 5:49 PM GMT
oops!! LaughLaughLaugh

check who your logged in as next time LaughLaughLaugh
Report Fatslogger October 29, 2020 6:18 PM GMT

Oct 29, 2020 -- 12:49PM, nineteen points wrote:


oops!! check who your logged in as next time


Do you ever make any sense?

Report Fatslogger October 29, 2020 6:21 PM GMT
Oh I see, you think I’m Mex, continuing my previous point 9 hours later. What is it with you conspiracy nut jobs? Tim thinks I’m PP and you think I’m Mex. I don’t even necessarily agree with either of them.
Report Charlie October 29, 2020 6:24 PM GMT
I'll correct what I've just said, I meant I usually agree with with Mex and PP but not always.
Report Charlie October 29, 2020 6:25 PM GMT
Oh bugger, wrong account, delete last post.
Report nineteen points October 29, 2020 6:26 PM GMT
the covid coven
Report Charlie October 29, 2020 6:36 PM GMT
Double, double covid trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg and howlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth does covid bubble.
Report Fatslogger October 29, 2020 6:37 PM GMT

Oct 29, 2020 -- 1:26PM, nineteen points wrote:


the covid coven


Do you actually read anything I post about Covid? Yesterday you tried some strange gotcha about hospital testing then ran away when challenged on talking rubbish. Today you’ve missed me discussing herd immunity.

Report Fatslogger October 29, 2020 6:37 PM GMT
Sorry, I meant anything Mex, Charlie or I posted, as we’re all the same obviously.
Report peckerdunne October 29, 2020 6:44 PM GMT
Charlie where on earth has that poem come from, pretty cool little thing, i'm not familiar with.

Sorry i mean Mex or is it Fats, gee i can't tell no more, it feels like there is 19 of you all in one.
Report Charlie October 29, 2020 6:46 PM GMT
Double, double covid trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Cool it with nineteen's blood,
Then the charm is firm and good.
Report Charlie October 29, 2020 6:49 PM GMT
It may be Scottish pecker but can't say anymore.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- October 29, 2020 6:58 PM GMT
Free the witches
Report Charlie October 29, 2020 7:03 PM GMT
Scale of dragon, tooth of wolf,
Witches' mummy, shoes and gulf
Of the ravin'd salt-sea shark,
Root of hemlock digg'd i' the dark,
Liver of blaspheming frog,
Gall of goat, and slips of yew
Silver'd in the moon's eclipse,
Nose of Turk and Tartar's lips,
Finger of birth-strangled babe
Ditch-deliver'd by a drab,
Make the gruel thick and slab:
Add thereto a wolf's chaudron,
For the ingredients of our covid cauldron.
Report Charlie October 29, 2020 7:14 PM GMT
Double, double covid trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Cool it with trumps blood,
Then the charm is firm and good.
Report Charlie October 30, 2020 3:34 PM GMT

Oct 29, 2020 -- 1:44PM, peckerdunne wrote:


Charlie where on earth has that poem come from, pretty cool little thing, i'm not familiar with.Sorry i mean Mex or is it Fats, gee i can't tell no more, it feels like there is 19 of you all in one.


In case you didn't work it out, it's from Shakespeare with a few words changed; some obvious some not so.

Report peckerdunne October 30, 2020 3:56 PM GMT
Cheers Charlie, instinct, language and style said Shakespeare but i was too lazy to follow up
Report Angoose October 30, 2020 4:13 PM GMT
Macbeth Devil
Report Fatslogger October 30, 2020 5:52 PM GMT

Oct 30, 2020 -- 11:13AM, Angoose wrote:


Macbeth


It's a bit over the top in places but still one of my favourites.  MacBeth's speech on hearing of the death of Lady MacBeth is just stunning:

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Report peckerdunne October 30, 2020 6:01 PM GMT
Reminds me of some of the howling forum posters.
Report Fatslogger October 30, 2020 6:05 PM GMT

Oct 30, 2020 -- 1:01PM, peckerdunne wrote:


Reminds me of some of the howling forum posters.


Yes.

It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.


is especially suitable.

Report shiny new shoes please October 30, 2020 8:08 PM GMT
Antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 were detected in 18 per cent of participants overall in the study undertaken by TUH over a three-month period from mid-July to mid-October.
Case closed
Report Fatslogger October 30, 2020 9:19 PM GMT

Oct 30, 2020 -- 3:08PM, shiny new shoes please wrote:


Antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 were detected in 18 per cent of participants overall in the study undertaken by TUH over a three-month period from mid-July to mid-October.Case closed


Can you explain why the case is closed?

Report nineteen points October 30, 2020 9:33 PM GMT
can YOU explain

more lockdowns
more masks
more cases

every single day i am getting proven right.and every single day you and your coven bury your heads deeper.
Report Fatslogger October 30, 2020 9:39 PM GMT
more stupid posts listing three correlated concepts without understanding that causation isn't the same thing

I've literally explained it, in various ways to you, over a score of times.  Others have also tried.  I suspect over 100 posts worth of attempts have been made.  You didn't engage with any of the explanations.
Report nineteen points October 31, 2020 9:31 AM GMT
well heres a bit engagement.look at the graphs of countries in europe when they mandated masks.look at the rise in cases after in all these countries.every one has a steep curve up.

apart from sweden who arent muzzled and have no curve  #justsayinlike
Report Mexico October 31, 2020 9:44 AM GMT
19

You keep repeating your silly "more" mantra but refuse to explain what you mean. Some posters are willing to engage with you but you won't actually explain what you believe. Are you saying you believe wearing a face covering in a shop for 20 minutes is the reason UK has lost control of Covid?

More aeroplanes
More wind turbines
More cancer
Report nineteen points October 31, 2020 9:48 AM GMT
dear me mex that is a daft question even for you!


how much easier could i put it? its self explanatory even for a numpty like me.
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 31, 2020 9:48 AM GMT

Oct 30, 2020 -- 4:33PM, nineteen points wrote:


can YOU explainmore lockdownsmore masksmore casesevery single day i am getting proven right.and every single day you and your coven bury your heads deeper.


Right, go on then. I'm still in an "enough of their bullsh!t" kind of mood.

Can you phrase your argument into a sentence please? Are you saying for instance, that lockdowns and masks are directly leading to more cases? Is that your argument?


Good morning by the way.

Report Timber October 31, 2020 9:49 AM GMT
Chinese flu is a blood disease, you will see less and less being ventilated.
Increases in strokes and heart attacks due to clotting.
Just a matter of finding the correct drugs to treat it effectively.
It will just take time
Report nineteen points October 31, 2020 9:51 AM GMT
yes that is exactly what i am sayng.and have said it for ages.its MY opinion looking at the figures.

good morning to you also sir.
Report Timber October 31, 2020 9:53 AM GMT
Masks aren't working.
Look at people constantly touching them and adjusting them with potentially infected hands.
Also if you have a beard you can feel the bristles pierce the mask material.
It ain't stopping a virus for sure
Unless everybody wears BA all the time its an exercise in futility
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 31, 2020 9:58 AM GMT
ok then, so we started locking down in late March when numbers were clearly out of control and ended in early July I think. Please explain how the number of cases went in that period?

Also explain how the cases have gone in the last couple of months when we haven't locked down (and please don't use the farce of these tiers shutting a few bookies as anything close to locking down)?

Then, please explain your view on other potential factors into cases rising and how you're dismissing them.



We can move on to masks in a bit.
Report nineteen points October 31, 2020 9:59 AM GMT
thank you a bit of sense in a sea of panic.i had to wear masks for years in a very dirty hot enviroment,wore all kinds just to keep the health and saafety folk happy.i can tell you the make not a jot of difference to what you breath in.after 5 minutes the insides of your mask was black.

as for the way they are being worn now,well some folk are killing themselves with their mask hygiene
Report Mexico October 31, 2020 10:29 AM GMT
19

The leaks in the press suggest UK will be in a March style lockdown but with schools open for a month.

The science advisors think this will reduce cases from the 23,000 confirmed daily cases (about 100,000 estimated).

Do you believe that cases will continue to rise when people are not allowed to meet up.


For the record- I suspect initially cases will rise as many people will use this weekend as a last chance to party, then start to drop after a couple of weeks.
Am annoyed government said no to a 2 week "circuit break" and instead looks like we will have a 4 week shutdown. Who knows- government may extend it so 6 weeks rather than 4 . The government have lost control.
Report nineteen points October 31, 2020 10:33 AM GMT
last sentence sums it up for me.spot on.

the figures will always back up this govts decisions.they manipulate them to suit their reasoning and agenda. lets just say they are tellers of tall tales.
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 31, 2020 11:22 AM GMT
Has 19 answered and had his post deleted or is he still thinking?
Report nineteen points October 31, 2020 11:44 AM GMT
11.33
Report dukeofpuke October 31, 2020 1:29 PM GMT
I posted elsewhere

Which did a survey on masks and the expensive ones when worn correctly offer up to 90% protection

The lower end cheap face coverings as low as 7%
Report nineteen points October 31, 2020 1:35 PM GMT
everybody walking around with these cheap dirty masks think they are invincable and dont bother with the distancing etc.
Report dukeofpuke October 31, 2020 1:39 PM GMT
Where i live in Leicester there have been no major outbreaks in the pubs there,there is the odd isolated case

Any ideas why
Report Mexico October 31, 2020 1:57 PM GMT
19

Just want to check I understand your answer at 11.33

Is it fair to say...

You believe that the number of Daily recorded  Covid cases will drop with a 1 month lockdown.
However you don't believe the recorded number of positives are accurate- the government/scientists  will post lies about number of positive tests.
Report dave1357 October 31, 2020 1:57 PM GMT
How many times do you have to be told? Masks are meant to lessen the chance that YOU will pass the virus to  SOMEONE ELSE.
Report dave1357 October 31, 2020 1:58 PM GMT
^to nineteen pints
Report nineteen points October 31, 2020 2:02 PM GMT
mex,yes i think they lie to suit whatever they want at the time.

dave,you say "are meant" so are you saying they dont? like in i ment to svore with that penalty but i missed? and how will i pass it on if am am nowhere near them?
Report dave1357 October 31, 2020 2:21 PM GMT
No I'm saying that

everybody walking around with these cheap dirty masks think they are invincable



merely supports your ignorance in the subject - btw Sth Dakota, your favoured covid control location, has now infected more that 5% of it's population.
Report nineteen points October 31, 2020 2:28 PM GMT
how many covid deaths to folk with no medical problems?
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 31, 2020 2:29 PM GMT

Oct 31, 2020 -- 6:44AM, nineteen points wrote:


11.33


Sorry, but if that is an "answer" you need to hand your cards in. Come on, be brave. Engage with the discussion. Explain how lockdown has increased transmission (or indeed how it's increased now and in Feb/March without lockdown).

Evidence please. Wouldn't want anyone thinking you're a conspiracy theorist troll.

Report dave1357 October 31, 2020 2:59 PM GMT

Oct 31, 2020 -- 9:28AM, nineteen points wrote:


how many covid deaths to folk with no medical problems?


How many times do you have to be told? The point of controlling the virus is to prevent the NHS from becoming overloaded and causing non-covid deaths.

Also 30% of the population have an "underlying condition".

Report wolf3011 October 31, 2020 3:42 PM GMT
and hardly any of them are dead of corona or the average age of death from it wouldnt be 82
Report HonkyJoe October 31, 2020 3:44 PM GMT
Respiratory cases and deaths still well below the baseline for this time of year - even if you add in the Covid-19.
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