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sageform
20 Oct 20 09:02
Joined:
Date Joined: 15 Jun 01
| Topic/replies: 39,563 | Blogger: sageform's blog
However you see this stand off, I think that the most important factor is the election for Mayor of Manchester in May 2021. Andy Burnham is playing to the electorate in a very similar way to Donald Trump. I don't agree with Sadiq Khan's politics but I have great respect for his moderate approach to the job of Mayor of London. Such a contrast to Burnham.
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Report Cider October 20, 2020 5:59 PM BST
The numpty from the daily mail been following this for 7 months and still doesn't know Tuesday's reported deaths are inflated from the weekend. One despairs of the ineptitude of the media class Plain
Report Cider October 20, 2020 6:03 PM BST
I for one am very glad that the Tories faced down Burnhamall and his dirty politicking. It is after all our money ffs. They will end up getting it anyway no doubt.
Report clacton October 20, 2020 6:06 PM BST

Oct 20, 2020 -- 10:56AM, Foinavon wrote:


Hell's bells, I find myself agreeing with Andy Burnham.


So do I. I'm surprised as well but I think he talks more sense than anyone in the government does.

Report SontaranStratagem October 20, 2020 6:07 PM BST
The whole thing was theatre

They were putting them into tier 3 anyway, only this was done so as to spin it about the one thing it always ends up being... about money Sad

The people are fooked, they keep this going and there's fook all push back, or there is some pushback but they simply just ignore it

These people are fooking demented
Report Cider October 20, 2020 6:14 PM BST
Burnhamall supports Starmer's national lock down position. As demonstrated above in the yhtl quote he has a free pass. Will get a biased hearing from MSM and all the Boris and Tory haters so it was a no lose situation, resist and hope to screw the taxpayer over or play the victim, wounded scouser. The working class champion who thinks he's on a middle income of £110K and gold plated pension.
Report nineteen points October 20, 2020 6:24 PM BST
cider maybe the taxpayer will get screwed even more to pay for this sh1testorm? you obviously dont give a jot about all the folk who will lose their jobs ,businesses and maybe even a family member because of this tyranical behaviour.i would guess you are in the comfortable im alright jack bracket.you wont be affected so why should you care about others eh?
Report 1st time poster October 20, 2020 6:25 PM BST
£8 a head for people of manchester or you can request a government prescription to save on paperwork, LaughLaugh
Report 1st time poster October 20, 2020 6:26 PM BST
dildo,s boys still on 7 grand a day ,the more they fail the longer it lasts,the more they get LaughLaugh,luvely jubbley
Report SontaranStratagem October 20, 2020 6:27 PM BST
22m CrazyCrazyCrazy

Kiss you businesses goodbye

Disgusting there's no push back to this
Report Cider October 20, 2020 6:29 PM BST

Oct 20, 2020 -- 12:24PM, nineteen points wrote:


cider maybe the taxpayer will get screwed even more to pay for this sh1testorm? you obviously dont give a jot about all the folk who will lose their jobs ,businesses and maybe even a family member because of this tyranical behaviour.i would guess you are in the comfortable im alright jack bracket.you wont be affected so why should you care about others eh?


It's all propaganda 19. There's no additional pressure on the NHS currently. No excess deaths currently. No businesses should be forced to shut. If they feel they have to do it then obviously local is much better than national.

Report nineteen points October 20, 2020 6:31 PM BST
so why are you calling burnham when he is saying same as that?
Report peckerdunne October 20, 2020 6:31 PM BST
only a matter of time, the clock is ticking...
Report Cider October 20, 2020 6:33 PM BST
He says he wants a national lockdown. It's an absurd juxtaposition and all about trying to gain political capital.
Report 1st time poster October 20, 2020 6:33 PM BST
manchester should plug gap with money set aside for road cleaners ,bins etc and when bins not getting emptied hit the tv screens,good for tory levelling up, at least for non tory,s anyway
Report peckerdunne October 20, 2020 6:34 PM BST
241

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241

241

241

241
Report Cider October 20, 2020 6:34 PM BST

Oct 20, 2020 -- 12:33PM, 1st time poster wrote:


manchester should plug gap with money set aside for road cleaners ,bins etc and when bins not getting emptied hit the tv screens,good for tory levelling up, at least for non tory,s anyway


Sounds like a typical socialist experience.

Report saddo October 20, 2020 6:36 PM BST
He's like Wolfie Smith  Laugh
Report peckerdunne October 20, 2020 6:39 PM BST
Don't worry, when the sarf lights up in a couple of weeks, the cash will appear.
Report Cider October 20, 2020 6:54 PM BST
Scotland's cases continue to rise. It's only been 11 days since her most recent lockdown measures. At least the devolved administrations are now proving to be some use. As guinea pigs Laugh
Report peckerdunne October 20, 2020 6:57 PM BST
There's a very clear and obvious reason for that.....

241

21,332
Report peckerdunne October 20, 2020 6:58 PM BST
not so hilarious either.
Report Cider October 20, 2020 7:00 PM BST
Their putting politics ahead of what's best is hilarious, and that it will be exposed. It's not hilarious for the people their lockdowns are being inflicted on.
Report peckerdunne October 20, 2020 7:03 PM BST
241

241

241
Report Cider October 20, 2020 7:06 PM BST
The UK figure which is irrelevant, as evidently Westminster only controls England. And approximately 10000 people die every week. Death is as inevitable as birth, unfortunately.
Report lapsy pa October 20, 2020 7:09 PM BST
I wasn't impressed with AB,think the whole affair is scummy for want of a better word,the sidekicks,the rent a crowd,the all in black,mafiaesque. I get he wants as much as he can get but..
The vast waste of money elsewhere is no help.
Turned into a money row,health second.

Cider,i have a totally different view to you,i won't dream of saying i'm right and you are wrong but the push to limp on with economy in a growing pandemic is one i can't grasp.
Report Cider October 20, 2020 7:19 PM BST
I do appreciate your comments lapsy, one of the few on the left side of politics who can have a proper debate. We don't always have to agree to be agreeable!

It's the damage and the long term scarring lockdowns create. If it was a disease which had a massive death rate and affected young people there would be a stronger case for draconian interventions, but it simply doesn't. Society will need to accept there's a new disease that can lead to death for its most vulnerable, but it's taking an awfully long time getting there and for me the blame is squarely with social media and the 24 hour news cycle. If this had happened in 2000 we wouldn't be experiencing this collective worldwide overreaction.

The fact is we need a functioning economy to provide public services, and we need to remain creditworthy as a nation otherwise the depression will make what we are experiencing now look like chicken feed.
Report lapsy pa October 20, 2020 7:29 PM BST
Yes, the cases came down in August,not very low but low,the economy started off again quite well and obviously a semi recovery on such a hit. Where it went wrong then the "respect" for the virus went out the window by many,until that attitude changes by all, the nett result will be depression.
Report Cider October 20, 2020 7:31 PM BST
It's a seasonal virus, all of the major european countries are seeing exactly the same trend. No matter what restrictions they implement on their public. We can't control mother nature.
Report 1st time poster October 20, 2020 7:32 PM BST
yep you spent 7 months telling us,now for once in those 7 months prey tell us   how your going to stop hospitals overflowing with victims of the virus
either way you cut it hospitals will be overflowing unless your suggesting covid cant go  to hospital
Report nineteen points October 20, 2020 7:34 PM BST
more lockdowns
more masks
more cases

irrefutable evidence there now.no one,absolutely no one can dispute it now.
Report Cider October 20, 2020 7:42 PM BST

Oct 20, 2020 -- 1:32PM, 1st time poster wrote:


yep you spent 7 months telling us,now for once in those 7 months prey tell us

Report Cider October 20, 2020 7:44 PM BST
Disregarding the fact that there are no more people in hospital now that a normal year, there are empty nightingales all over the country.
Report nineteen points October 20, 2020 7:44 PM BST
7 months steadily day by day being proven right.does it annoy you?
Report peckerdunne October 20, 2020 7:52 PM BST
Stop talking bollox, this isint just about Manchester nor just the virus.

One half of society is getting rich from this pandemic and now the TORIES want to punish the people on the lowest income from the lowest tax base, punidshing the less well off means less money in circulation, not helping economy at all.

TAX THE AMAZONS, TAX THE WEALTHY HALF, SAME OLD THIEVING TORIES..

IT THERE A MORATORIUM ON MORTGAGES FROM BANK,ONLY PAY 2/3rds PEOPLE.
Report peckerdunne October 20, 2020 7:52 PM BST
Stop talking bollox, this isint just about Manchester nor just the virus.

One half of society is getting rich from this pandemic and now the TORIES want to punish the people on the lowest income from the lowest tax base, punidshing the less well off means less money in circulation, not helping economy at all.

TAX THE AMAZONS, TAX THE WEALTHY HALF, SAME OLD THIEVING TORIES..

IT THERE A MORATORIUM ON MORTGAGES FROM BANK,ONLY PAY 2/3rds PEOPLE.
Report Cider October 20, 2020 7:58 PM BST
67% of pay for not working, people seemed to be very happy for only 13% more than that for the last 7 months.
Report nineteen points October 20, 2020 8:06 PM BST
as i said earlier cider.you are obviously not affected by this. 67% of the maximum minimum wage which is £8.20ph.

then you have the millions you never hear about,conveniently forgotton about,zero hours,self employed etc who have had nothing at all since this sham started.

but its ok you fine.you sit here and slate them.
Report lapsy pa October 20, 2020 8:11 PM BST
^ Bang on there 19,ppe firms, serco,fellas getting 7k a day,you won't know the half of it and dodging council tax on top?
Report Cider October 20, 2020 8:12 PM BST
I'm a champion of the lower paid workers 19, I've fought for them throughout my career when I was a leader. It's not ideal obviously, if it was up to me their workplaces wouldn't be getting shut down.

The reality is that the country's expenses have shot up to unimaginable levels, and at the same time the tax rake has massively gone down. It's not sustainable to pay people not to work at any level, never mind 80%. It's not the government paying them, it's collectively us and the next generation.
Report 1st time poster October 20, 2020 8:13 PM BST
nightingales are empty because there,s no one to staff them

unless you no something the rest of the country doesnt ,there,s no answer that doesnt end up with hospitals over flowing where the virus is embedded

try again what is your answer for hospitals not been over run
Report Cider October 20, 2020 8:17 PM BST
Are you claiming that nightingales are there just to look at? there must be contingencies in place, retired medics, army medics, private health staff, agency etc.
Report 1st time poster October 20, 2020 8:17 PM BST
tory naarthern red walkl mp,s getting a nice shower ,dusting themselves down before returning to commons tomoorow to vote against free school meals for kids during half term
just keep whistling levelling up as you vote guys and gals Laugh
Report Cider October 20, 2020 8:19 PM BST
Tory blue wall MPs believe in personal responsibility (thank god)
Report SontaranStratagem October 20, 2020 8:20 PM BST
Well the working class who "borrowed" this lot their vote... hope it was worth it Crazy
Report 1st time poster October 20, 2020 8:22 PM BST
you must have still been in the womb during expenses example,i presume, LaughLaugh,
duck house,s v free school meals, Laugh
Report nineteen points October 20, 2020 8:22 PM BST
how can you be personally responsible for yourself when you have a job and the govt shuts you down?
Report 1st time poster October 20, 2020 8:25 PM BST
all this over a few million
last week in commons tea room
robert jenrick to jake berry 25 million ok jake yep no problem bob

jake berry to robert jenrick, 25 million ok bob,yep no problem jake

LaughLaugh
Report Cider October 20, 2020 8:25 PM BST
I agree that people who are enforced not to work receive an income. It needs to be enough to keep heads above water, with no work expenses and access to UI, 67% is very fair.
Report 1st time poster October 20, 2020 8:26 PM BST
5 quid an hr on part time hours
Report SontaranStratagem October 20, 2020 8:27 PM BST
60 million wouldn't have bailed them out

Makes no difference how much money they get small businesses are going to the wall its all been on purpose

The money is basically a pay off to the city big wigs, none of them give a fook about the people
Report 1st time poster October 20, 2020 8:28 PM BST
downing street just confirmed tory party conference wont be held in manchester untill at least 2025 LaughLaugh
Report thegiggilo October 20, 2020 8:30 PM BST
Manchester Young Conservatives
@MancTories
Boris has lied about helping us in the North.

It’s time for him to go..

LaughLaugh
Report 1st time poster October 20, 2020 8:32 PM BST
there,ll be a big headline in the sun one day

DORIS TELLS TRUTH

april 1st probably, Laugh
Report nineteen points October 20, 2020 8:40 PM BST
cider i am sorry but you have lost all credibility as a poster but more importantly as a human being.£8.20 is the max,£6.45 is the min.if you think another human being can live on 2/3 of that,bring food into the house,pay a mortgage,electric,cloth kids etc then i pity you.you are a sad person and frankly a heartless man. and i am loath to use the word man
Report SontaranStratagem October 20, 2020 8:41 PM BST
This is what happens when you "borrow" your vote to the so called Tories

Let that be a lesson to them, they'll never learn though, 100 years and we're still subjected to this c*ap

Blame the tories, Boris ain't in control of anything ffs
Report Foinavon October 20, 2020 9:03 PM BST
If you close down businesses you have to give adequate support to the lowest paid, it's basic humanity.

In itself, closing down is a huge mistake. If we've learnt one thing since March, this isn't another Black Death, it's nothing like and the measures are totally disproportionate. It's not the government's job to keep everyone 100% safe, it's their job to balance all the factors and that includes keeping the economy going and not turning the NHS into the National COVID service.
People are suffering and people are dying because of the draconian measures taken and it's wrong.
Report peckerdunne October 20, 2020 9:06 PM BST
Cider i'd love to know what you were a leader off, if you don't mind.
Report Fatslogger October 20, 2020 9:16 PM BST

Oct 20, 2020 -- 2:17PM, Cider wrote:


Are you claiming that nightingales are there just to look at? there must be contingencies in place, retired medics, army medics, private health staff, agency etc.


You could staff them if you shut down other services but not with trained intensive care experts or nurses. They never really used the London one, mostly for those reasons and the planning went backwards and forwards but the best solutions they came up with, I think, were either a very primitive ITU that wouldn’t have coped with more complex patients and / or a palliative unit for those likely to die. For reasons I won’t go into, unless anyone is interested, neither of those would have been very helpful, or fair to those patients. Better option than nothing in absolute desperation, really.

What you could do, more effectively to handle major local outbreaks, is borrow staff from other regions that are less affected but that’s difficult to do and obviously denudes those areas. It also wouldn’t necessarily need the Nightingales. At present I don’t think there’s a large risk of exceeding surge capacity. There’s obviously a much higher risk of damaging the ability to run other services, especially routine surgery.

Report 1st time poster October 20, 2020 9:22 PM BST
hospitals still one of biggest covid spreaders,and you think transferring nhs staff back and forth from different hospitals in different area,s is a good idea
Report nineteen points October 20, 2020 9:24 PM BST
mr slogger,would it be impertinent of me to suggest staff could of been trained to do these tasks in the quiet summer period when they themselves admitted they were very quiet.or would that have hindered the production of tiktok videos?
Report Fatslogger October 20, 2020 9:25 PM BST

Oct 20, 2020 -- 3:03PM, Foinavon wrote:


If you close down businesses you have to give adequate support to the lowest paid, it's basic humanity.In itself, closing down is a huge mistake. If we've learnt one thing since March, this isn't another Black Death, it's nothing like and the measures are totally disproportionate. It's not the government's job to keep everyone 100% safe, it's their job to balance all the factors and that includes keeping the economy going and not turning the NHS into the National COVID service.People are suffering and people are dying because of the draconian measures taken and it's wrong.


I agree with a lot of this but aren’t you simultaneously contending that the government should be more relaxed about increased cases and that the NHS should expend less resource on dealing with what you’d be happy to be more demand for care for Covid?

Report Cider October 20, 2020 9:34 PM BST

Oct 20, 2020 -- 2:40PM, nineteen points wrote:


cider i am sorry but you have lost all credibility as a poster but more importantly as a human being.£8.20 is the max,£6.45 is the min.if you think another human being can live on 2/3 of that,bring food into the house,pay a mortgage,electric,cloth kids etc then i pity you.you are a sad person and frankly a heartless man. and i am loath to use the word man


No need for the grandstanding. You're not Burnhamall!

40 hours minimum wage take home week £307

40 hours minimum wage take home week @8% £260

40 hours minimum wage take home week @67% £227


So the new rate in the pay packet is £33 less per week than the furlough rate. Not ideal of course, but only £80 less than full pay, with no expenses like travel and lunch. Plus, my understanding is UI brings it up to at least 80%.

Report Cider October 20, 2020 9:34 PM BST
80% of course, not 8.
Report Fatslogger October 20, 2020 9:38 PM BST

Oct 20, 2020 -- 3:24PM, nineteen points wrote:


mr slogger,would it be impertinent of me to suggest staff could of been trained to do these tasks in the quiet summer period when they themselves admitted they were very quiet.or would that have hindered the production of tiktok videos?


It’s a fair question, although don’t overplay the TicTok angle. I was thinking earlier today about how HMG should have encouraged a massive recruitment to PHE in April and May to set up test and trace, rather than their subcontract a private firm or two with no real expertise at immense cost approach. They should probably have also used the military for logistics. They’re good at that stuff. Can’t say I have loads of detail of what they did consider and their options appraisals though.

As far as the NHS goes, it’s complicated. In the early pandemic a lot of people did a certain amount of retraining but the people you have in a hospital with the skills to work in intensive care at a high level are either theatre staff and anaesthetist, who mostly just shuffled straight across to helping in expanded units or were working in other specialities that bore the brunt of Covid work, particularly respiratory and acute medicine. By the summer, which was certainly quieter than usual in June and July, people were putting a lot of work into restarting their own services and I guess hoping that we wouldn’t see the same pressures again. One consequence of resource depletion is a focus on the immediate horizon.

Report Fatslogger October 20, 2020 9:41 PM BST

Oct 20, 2020 -- 3:22PM, 1st time poster wrote:


hospitals still one of biggest covid spreaders,and you think transferring nhs staff back and forth from different hospitals in different area,s is a good idea


Not really advocating it but if you took staff from say the South West, they wouldn’t be bringing Covid with them and you could do some testing and bubbling to reduce the risk further. How many volunteers you’d get is a different question.

Report Cider October 20, 2020 9:41 PM BST

Oct 20, 2020 -- 3:16PM, Fatslogger wrote:


Oct 20, 2020 --  8:17PM, Cider wrote:Are you claiming that nightingales are there just to look at? there must be contingencies in place, retired medics, army medics, private health staff, agency etc.You could staff them if you shut down other services but not with trained intensive care experts or nurses. They never really used the London one, mostly for those reasons and the planning went backwards and forwards but the best solutions they came up with, I think, were either a very primitive ITU that wouldn’t have coped with more complex patients and / or a palliative unit for those likely to die. For reasons I won’t go into, unless anyone is interested, neither of those would have been very helpful, or fair to those patients. Better option than nothing in absolute desperation, really. What you could do, more effectively to handle major local outbreaks, is borrow staff from other regions that are less affected but that’s difficult to do and obviously denudes those areas. It also wouldn’t necessarily need the Nightingales. At present I don’t think there’s a large risk of exceeding surge capacity. There’s obviously a much higher risk of damaging the ability to run other services, especially routine surgery.


Pretty much the only time we saw Simon Stevens since March was doing a presser from the excel nightingale taking credit after the army had built it. Presumably he has a strategy for staffing them.

It's moot in any case because there's no sign yet that we're close to needing to make use of the facilities.

Report peckerdunne October 20, 2020 9:54 PM BST
Cider, fighting the causes of the lower paid as a leader of what? pls
Report Foinavon October 20, 2020 9:57 PM BST
The NHS has been given more resources, Fatslogger. I'm contending that they should not be prioritising covid sufferers over those with cancer or organ failure, especially in paediatrics.
GP services have been difficult to come by and I'm not sure proper diagnosis can always be made over the telephone or the internet. Misdiagnosis and lack of follow-up can lead to tragic consequences. There is a balance to be achieved.
Report Cider October 20, 2020 9:58 PM BST

Oct 20, 2020 -- 3:54PM, peckerdunne wrote:


Cider, fighting the causes of the lower paid as a leader of what? pls


People leader, that's as much as I'm prepared to divulge.

Report Shanelee1966 October 20, 2020 10:00 PM BST
Don`t be so nosey, tell em nowt cider.

No one ever agrees with the Govt, always one extreme or the another.
Report peckerdunne October 20, 2020 10:06 PM BST
OK Cider, say no more, covert operations are vital to the cause...Laugh
Report charlatan October 20, 2020 10:51 PM BST
So did Burnham think this was free money cos he got to keep his stake even if he lost or did he think he was risking it all at 5/38 (1.132)? Amid all the self-righteous grandstanding I'm not sure....
Report shiny new shoes please October 20, 2020 11:30 PM BST
The only one with a pair of bollox.
Fighting for the working class.
Report Fatslogger October 20, 2020 11:46 PM BST

Oct 20, 2020 -- 3:57PM, Foinavon wrote:


The NHS has been given more resources, Fatslogger. I'm contending that they should not be prioritising covid sufferers over those with cancer or organ failure, especially in paediatrics.GP services have been difficult to come by and I'm not sure proper diagnosis can always be made over the telephone or the internet. Misdiagnosis and lack of follow-up can lead to tragic consequences. There is a balance to be achieved.


You haven’t really resolved your own paradox with this reply. Are you saying Covid patients should be left in the corridor so we can do more cancer work? Once someone lands in a hospital with Covid, looking after them is likely to be resource intensive. There’s no real way round that other than reducing the number of people getting it.

There’s basically no Covid problem in paeds anyway, so that’s a red herring.

I actually agree about phone and virtual working. It’s fine for some things, not great for others. That’s why we do some stuff face to face, some by phone, internet platforms or virtually. I suspected GPs probably could have done more face to face a couple of months ago but I don’t think that right now.

Report shiny new shoes please October 20, 2020 11:49 PM BST
Hope ya don't have cancer fatts
Report Fatslogger October 20, 2020 11:52 PM BST

Oct 20, 2020 -- 5:49PM, shiny new shoes please wrote:


Hope ya don't have cancer fatts


Are you okay?

Report Foinavon October 20, 2020 11:59 PM BST
They used to leave people in corridors during winter flu epidemics, I've seen it for myself. They didn't shut down everything else and they didn't have the Nightingales as overspill.
I know specialised staff can become overstretched but that's happened before.
Report Foinavon October 21, 2020 12:05 AM BST
There's a lot of time-wasting in General practice and I think a flat fee per appointment as in dentistry would help sort that. A telephone consultation could be free.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- October 21, 2020 12:14 AM BST
All this caring about saving lives then killing folk by taking away free consultations.
Report Foinavon October 21, 2020 12:19 AM BST
Perhaps we should give everyone free food too? It's socialism gone mad.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- October 21, 2020 12:24 AM BST
Perhaps a national health service with free consultations is something to be proud of.

Heaven knows all these tories finding a conscience and caring about folk with illnesses causes by austerity might just be enough to maintain the service.
Report Fatslogger October 21, 2020 8:01 AM BST

Oct 20, 2020 -- 5:59PM, Foinavon wrote:


They used to leave people in corridors during winter flu epidemics, I've seen it for myself. They didn't shut down everything else and they didn't have the Nightingales as overspill.I know specialised staff can become overstretched but that's happened before.


Yes but that’s both obviously a terrible thing in itself and utterly bonkers for a highly infectious disease.

Report 1st time poster October 21, 2020 11:12 AM BST
mindboggling that CIDER thinks the majority of staff in hospitality work a 40 hr week,some on zero contracts dont no how many hrs work they,ll be getting,whilst on the way to work and can be sent home during a shift,ignorance of the highest order how low paid hospitality work actually works
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- October 21, 2020 11:17 AM BST
dont forget some on split shifts, how do they cope in covid uk.
Report nineteen points October 21, 2020 11:24 AM BST
exactly right 1tp.he is in another world.
Report Foinavon October 21, 2020 11:59 AM BST
It's not ideal, fatslogger, nor is letting people die of other things. The Nightingales were constructed to cope with overspill, perhaps it would be better to use them as isolation units for all COVID cases. If we crash the economy we won't be able to afford the health service we have let alone a gold-plated one which everyone, including me, would in an ideal world like to see.
Report Pleasegivemeanailedontip October 21, 2020 4:05 PM BST
I thought it was a fairly fundemental principle in the health sector that a life prolonged is a bonus, rather than a right, but it seems not.

We seem to have moved through people caring for the unwell against all odds in horrific circumstances without judgement,
through a GP a few years ago telling me not to come back until i have changed my lifestyle,
into an era of medical staff crying on twitter videos because there are too many ill people

Im not completely unsympathetic to them and im all for some pragmatism but the medical profession above any other needs to maintain a thick skin
Report Fatslogger October 21, 2020 4:21 PM BST

Oct 21, 2020 -- 5:59AM, Foinavon wrote:


It's not ideal, fatslogger, nor is letting people die of other things. The Nightingales were constructed to cope with overspill, perhaps it would be better to use them as isolation units for all COVID cases. If we crash the economy we won't be able to afford the health service we have let alone a gold-plated one which everyone, including me, would in an ideal world like to see.


There is obviously a balance to be struck here. I would probably strike it in a different place to you (but perhaps not that different - I’m pretty much the only person to have put a number on acceptable deaths in Charlie’s thread). Anyway, that’s fine but I won’t be having the narrative that the NHS not treating other things is a problem because we’re not blasé enough about Covid, when the risk is almost all in the other direction. At a low to moderate level Covid can be handled fine, although it is a pain and we are seeing quite large numbers of deaths again. If capacity gets pushed beyond a certain point, this will impact on other services. The Covid precautions in health care right now are not preventing activity, although there have been some accommodations that have changed how things are delivered. In many cases this is actually an improvement for patients. The NHS had been painfully slow to update clinic working to reflect the use of that ultra modern technology, the mobile phone.

Report Fatslogger October 21, 2020 4:31 PM BST

Oct 21, 2020 -- 10:05AM, Pleasegivemeanailedontip wrote:


I thought it was a fairly fundemental principle in the health sector that a life prolonged is a bonus, rather than a right, but it seems not.We seem to have moved through people caring for the unwell against all odds in horrific circumstances without judgement, through a GP a few years ago telling me not to come back until i have changed my lifestyle, into an era of medical staff crying on twitter videos because there are too many ill peopleIm not completely unsympathetic to them and im all for some pragmatism but the medical profession above any other needs to maintain a thick skin


What was wrong with your lifestyle? I have tremendous difficulty with mine.

I agree with much of this. Not everyone will survive an acute illness and life has a 100% mortality in the end. There is a question of what a country wants from health care staff. I think advocation on behalf of often vulnerable people who died in large numbers, mostly separated from their families, is a fair thing to have provided.

Report Pleasegivemeanailedontip October 21, 2020 5:13 PM BST
Very moderate drinking but coupled with a liver issue. I wasnt expecting him to fix it for me, i was just surprised that the burden was stronger than the desire to care.


I think advocation on behalf of often vulnerable people who died in large numbers, mostly separated from their families, is a fair thing to have provided.


Clearly coming from a good place but advocation sounds like a shorthand for reduced burden. With the intention of caring though, probably a lot more so than my GP
Report Fatslogger October 21, 2020 5:26 PM BST
Well a reduced number of v sick people is better for all of the people who would otherwise have been v sick; for the staff who would have been looking after them and for the other patients who will get more time and resource dedicated to them. None of that means that we don’t want to do our jobs although I can see where that perception comes from, especially with some of the more preachy stuff that gets put out.
Report Fatslogger October 21, 2020 6:00 PM BST
Sorry, missed the liver comment, somehow. Probably no excess risk from small amounts of alcohol for some liver problems, might be for say NASH. Not my field but never been a fan of blaming or haranguing patients. It’s largely counterproductive and mostly unfair.
Report Foinavon October 21, 2020 6:04 PM BST
Thanks for the clarifications, Fatslogger, appreciate it.
Report SontaranStratagem October 21, 2020 6:42 PM BST
"ITV 10pm News said covid beds are now full in Blackpool Victoria hospital. Truth - The allocated beds for covid patients is 8, froma  total bed capacity of 767

They love the drama, you can twist the truth to suit an agenda"


The media are scum, enemy of the people, enemy of the nation, get them gone ffs
Report Fatslogger October 21, 2020 7:03 PM BST

Oct 21, 2020 -- 12:04PM, Foinavon wrote:


Thanks for the clarifications, Fatslogger, appreciate it.


No worries. Nature of forums is a bit adversarial (with the exception of you and edy, obvs). I actually suspect I have quite a lot of common ground with many of the people I argue with. For example, I thought GPs should have been doing more face to face work a couple of months ago and that they’d got too entrenched in remote services when some things are much better face to face. I feel that less strongly now when there is much higher Covid risk.

Report Fatslogger October 21, 2020 7:05 PM BST
As another example, totally agree with SS that it’s bonkers to frame Blackpool as having its Covid beds full. They’ll have allocated some more, FFS. I don’t think it’s trivial that capacity is being stretched but don’t distort things. I say this not having seen the report, mind you.
Report Pleasegivemeanailedontip October 21, 2020 11:27 PM BST
Well a reduced number of v sick people is better for all of the people who would otherwise have been v sick; for the staff who would have been looking after them and for the other patients who will get more time and resource dedicated to them.

Maybe true but there seems to be a reason that patients are given the choice to refuse treatment that overlaps with this. Not the same thing but coming from the same fundamental place that it isnt for the medical profession to force treatment on people, even if it is more effecient.

The meds dont have to make this choice though, seems to me a line of ‘heres some things you can do to help yourselves, hers some things the government should seriously consider, but bottom line; we are here to help as many people as we can whatever the crisis’ is both professional and compassionate.

Thanks for the liver advice
Report Fatslogger October 22, 2020 1:40 PM BST

Oct 21, 2020 -- 5:27PM, Pleasegivemeanailedontip wrote:


Well a reduced number of v sick people is better for all of the people who would otherwise have been v sick; for the staff who would have been looking after them and for the other patients who will get more time and resource dedicated to them.Maybe true but there seems to be a reason that patients are given the choice to refuse treatment that overlaps with this. Not the same thing but coming from the same fundamental place that it isnt for the medical profession to force treatment on people, even if it is more effecient.The meds dont have to make this choice though, seems to me a line of ‘heres some things you can do to help yourselves, hers some things the government should seriously consider, but bottom line; we are here to help as many people as we can whatever the crisis’ is both professional and compassionate.Thanks for the liver advice


I get the point. Like I said, I don’t approve of preachy and generally don’t think it works well but a calm explanation of risks is fair enough. I don’t think that’s the same as not imposing treatment on people, as good, evidenced based advice is essential for people to make an informed view of whether or not to have treatment, stop drinking, wear a mask, whatever. Public health advice is difficult though, because things are complicated and it’s very tough to cut through with nuanced messages. Simple is easier but less honest.

No worries about the advice. It wasn’t very specific!

Report Charlie October 22, 2020 2:27 PM BST
Cider • October 20, 2020 9:34 PM BST

No need for the grandstanding. You're not Burnhamall!

40 hours minimum wage take home week £307
40 hours minimum wage take home week @8% £260 (I know you meant 80%)
40 hours minimum wage take home week @67% £227

So the new rate in the pay packet is £33 less per week than the furlough rate. Not ideal of course, but only £80 less than full pay, with no expenses like travel and lunch. Plus, my understanding is UI brings it up to at least 80%.


How do these figures work? I'm confused (some unkind people might say easily confused).
Report nineteen points October 22, 2020 3:04 PM BST
charlie its because they are miles out and made up.
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